FMVP Ongoing Power Ranking

[scaryjerry]

Tatum centric Celtics fans so mad.

I do think he got to a place where he deserved finals mvp, but he just simply wasn?t significantly better than Jaylen at all during this run and they both deserved it.
Jaylen was super aggressive last night and his shot was a bit off but his defense on Luka to start was so good and such a tone setter I have no problem with him being the MVP

[jambr380]

It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

Do you think not winning this award is going to limit Tatum's popularity, prestige or marketability?

Because, to me, "NBA Champion Jayson Tatum" shuts down most arguments.

I agree if you just look at it from the surface, but Tatum is also one of the most hated stars in the league - precisely because he isn?t in that Jokic/Luka level of superstars - but he continues to be so successful. It jealousy, no doubt.

It?s hard to describe, you are absolutely right that he is still incredibly marketable, but he doesn?t get a break from anybody. The narrative that he was carried to a Title unfortunately won?t go away until he wins another one and actually wins Finals MVP.

Which I think is ridiculous btw. Tatum wasn?t the most efficient this playoff run, and he certainly could have been better at times, but he consistently played well. He has perhaps the most well rounded game in the entire league and he has  been a winner his entire career.

[Redz]

Tatum was awesome last night and Beown sort of disappeared in the second half and all of Game 4.  I thought the voters would have some recency bias, but I think they got it right.  brown was MVY for two wins, Jrue 1 and JT 1.  Overall gotta give a slight edge to JB.

Either way it?s very telling of this team that it was a tough choice. 

Congrats to the Celts!

[jpotter33]

LeBron should have been FMVP that year. Not Iggy. Not Steph. LeBron was so far ahead of everyone else in that series that he deserved to be FMVP despite being on the losing side.

This argument probably means you crown Luka this year, no?

No. I don't think Luka was that far ahead of everyone else. He was ahead but not as far ahead.

What LeBron did in that Finals run was incredible leading Cleveland without Kyrie or K-Love and making CLE competitive against GSW. Luka had a lot more help around him in this series. He wasn't able to elevate his team the way LeBron did.

I think I agree with this - just think it's an interesting thought experiment, especially since it's essentially an unwritten rule at this point that you can't win Finals MVP if your team loses the series.

Also, not only was Luka not that far ahead of everyone else, but it was also a barely competitive gentleman?s sweep. I think you can only consider placing a loser as the Finals MVP if they?re both (a) far and away better than anyone on the winning team, and (b) it was an actual competitive series, likely 7 games.

[jpotter33]

The reason this is an issue at all is because Brown won ECF MVP, too, and in that series Tatum clearly was the MVP but lost it due to Brown hitting the one big shot. This one is much more of a toss up, but if Tatum would?ve deservedly got ECF MVP and Brown Finals MVP I think there?d be absolutely no complaints from anyone.

Also, for posterity?s sake you just know these two awards for Brown are now going to be over-scrutinized and have an Iguadala-esque tinge to them given Tatum led both series in points, rebounds, and assists by a comfortable margin.

[Moranis]

It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

Do you think not winning this award is going to limit Tatum's popularity, prestige or marketability?

Because, to me, "NBA Champion Jayson Tatum" shuts down most arguments.

It is a legacy award more than a short term sort of thing. So it certainly could affect Tatum's legacy.  Curry is probably the best example of this. On all time lists, Curry was behind Durant on most of them until 2022 and one of the things you heard was Durant's 2 FMVP to 0 for Curry. It wasn't until Curry won the 4th title and finally got the FMVP that that narrative changed and disappeared.  And remember before that title, Curry had more championships, more MVP's, was on the best regular season team of all time, and even when they played together the advanced metrics showed that Curry made the team run. Didn't matter, Durant by having the FMVP's was the best player on 2 title teams and that elevated him up ahead if Curry. It wasn't till Curry won again that it shifted and now most all time lists have Curry ahead of Durant.

[Roy H.]

The reason this is an issue at all is because Brown won ECF MVP, too, and in that series Tatum clearly was the MVP but lost it due to Brown hitting the one big shot. This one is much more of a toss up, but if Tatum would?ve deservedly got ECF MVP and Brown Finals MVP I think there?d be absolutely no complaints from anyone.

Also, for posterity?s sake you just know these two awards for Brown are now going to be over-scrutinized and have an Iguadala-esque tinge to them given Tatum led both series in points, rebounds, and assists by a comfortable margin.

Who won ECF MVP in 2022?  Was that Tatum?  I suppose there could be a narrative of "for the Celtics to win, this had to become JB's team", but that's sort of out of touch with reality.  The fact is, both guys stepped up at various times, and we also got key contributions from role players.

For whatever it's worth, I had both Jays very close in the ECF, as well.  JB made the defensive play and then the giant shot at the end of Game 1, and both guys essentially averaged 30ppg.  JB had advantages on defense and efficiency; JT was the offensive engine and led in rebounds and assists.

[Roy H.]

It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

Do you think not winning this award is going to limit Tatum's popularity, prestige or marketability?

Because, to me, "NBA Champion Jayson Tatum" shuts down most arguments.

It is a legacy award more than a short term sort of thing. So it certainly could affect Tatum's legacy.  Curry is probably the best example of this. On all time lists, Curry was behind Durant on most of them until 2022 and one of the things you heard was Durant's 2 FMVP to 0 for Curry. It wasn't until Curry won the 4th title and finally got the FMVP that that narrative changed and disappeared.  And remember before that title, Curry had more championships, more MVP's, was on the best regular season team of all time, and even when they played together the advanced metrics showed that Curry made the team run. Didn't matter, Durant by having the FMVP's was the best player on 2 title teams and that elevated him up ahead if Curry. It wasn't till Curry won again that it shifted and now most all time lists have Curry ahead of Durant.

Durant was also the Lebron stopper.  He deserved those MVP awards.

What changed the narrative, if there ever was one, is that Durant left the team and Curry won another title without him.  I don't think that FMVP award does much for Steph's legacy.  He has consistently been seen as the greatest shooter of all-time and a leader of a dynasty.

[Moranis]

GmSc for the Finals (players 10 and up)

Luka 18.9
Tatum 16.4
Brown 14.9
Jrue 13.4
Kyrie and White 11.6
KP 10.9

That seems to make sense.

For comparison to 2015 (and why Lebron could have won while Luka could not)

Lebron 24.6
Curry 17.9
Iggy 13.6
Draymond 12.1
Mozgov 11.8
Thompson 11.2
Kyrie in his 1 game was 21.1

That is the type of series where you should at least consider giving the award to a player on the losing team.

Game score isn't the be all end all, but it does do a pretty good job of approximating value

[Moranis]

It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

Do you think not winning this award is going to limit Tatum's popularity, prestige or marketability?

Because, to me, "NBA Champion Jayson Tatum" shuts down most arguments.

It is a legacy award more than a short term sort of thing. So it certainly could affect Tatum's legacy.  Curry is probably the best example of this. On all time lists, Curry was behind Durant on most of them until 2022 and one of the things you heard was Durant's 2 FMVP to 0 for Curry. It wasn't until Curry won the 4th title and finally got the FMVP that that narrative changed and disappeared.  And remember before that title, Curry had more championships, more MVP's, was on the best regular season team of all time, and even when they played together the advanced metrics showed that Curry made the team run. Didn't matter, Durant by having the FMVP's was the best player on 2 title teams and that elevated him up ahead if Curry. It wasn't till Curry won again that it shifted and now most all time lists have Curry ahead of Durant.

Durant was also the Lebron stopper.  He deserved those MVP awards.

What changed the narrative, if there ever was one, is that Durant left the team and Curry won another title without him.  I don't think that FMVP award does much for Steph's legacy.  He has consistently been seen as the greatest shooter of all-time and a leader of a dynasty.

Durant deserved the award, that wasn't the point, it was the perception.  And the Lebron stopper in 17 let Lebron average 33.6, 12.0, 10.0 (and he was basicalky the same in 18 as well). Durant won because he scored 35.2 ppg with a nearly 70 TS%.  He was amazing on offense, not defense.  In 18 it was much closer, but Durant was again statistically better than Curry and deserved to win, but that hurt Curry's legacy. The FMVP is a legacy award.  It is the perception around it.

[scaryjerry]

Boo hoo Tatum crew.
Listen, I love Jayson but his fanboys are insufferable.
He was a very important player to this teams success obviously, he didn?t shoot efficiently the entire playoffs and certainly not in the finals. He did have a really good game 5 but just get over yourselves?brown deserved it and got it. Who cares, the Celtics finally won banner 18

[bdm860]

It?s funny people talk about game 3 being the reason Jaylen won when it was Tatum who was by far the best player in the first half of that game, keeping them in it.

Brown is a very good player, but I do think Tatum got robbed. After last night?s game, they no longer needed an excuse to give the award to Tatum because he actually earned it. There are a LOT of Tatum haters out there, though - maybe even among the voters - so it?s possible giving Jaylen the award was also not giving Tatum the award. People seemingly don?t want to include him in that upper echelon of players and having a Title, FMVP, and 1st Team All-NBA would undoubtedly put him there.

We as huge fans of the Celtics have watched for years as Tatum has carried this team, while Jaylen?s impact has been less noticeable in the advanced stats. I?m not taking anything away from Brown, but it isn?t a 1a and 1b situation, it?s 1 and 2, and that is how every team that defends the Celtics comes at them defensively.

Do you think not winning this award is going to limit Tatum's popularity, prestige or marketability?

Because, to me, "NBA Champion Jayson Tatum" shuts down most arguments.

It is a legacy award more than a short term sort of thing. So it certainly could affect Tatum's legacy.  Curry is probably the best example of this. On all time lists, Curry was behind Durant on most of them until 2022 and one of the things you heard was Durant's 2 FMVP to 0 for Curry. It wasn't until Curry won the 4th title and finally got the FMVP that that narrative changed and disappeared.  And remember before that title, Curry had more championships, more MVP's, was on the best regular season team of all time, and even when they played together the advanced metrics showed that Curry made the team run. Didn't matter, Durant by having the FMVP's was the best player on 2 title teams and that elevated him up ahead if Curry. It wasn't till Curry won again that it shifted and now most all time lists have Curry ahead of Durant.

You keep saying that it's a legacy award, but it's not.  And history has never supported it as a legacy award.

The list of all time greats NOT winning FMVP is long.  Oscar Roberson, West, Kareem, Bird, Magic, Dr. J, Isiah, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Garnett, Curry.


And to support your whole Durant/Curry argument, you need to show a list that had Durant behind Curry until Durant won FMVP, which I don't think you can provide, otherwise your argument doesn't hold weight because then it wouldn't be FMVP that put Durant ahead of Curry.

[Phantom255x]

Some of us inside the arena were surprised as we thought JT might have stolen the FMVP with his 30+ performance, but I think they got it right. Holding Game 4 against Jaylen when the entire team sucked would have been bad. Truth is, Jaylen was consistently good all series in all their wins AND he was also exceptional defensively. Tatum had a great series, and an awesome closeout, but he didn't shoot as well and Jaylen was also just better on the defensive end. I think the voters recognized that too. Jaylen was a beast.

[Kernewek]

LeBron should have been FMVP that year. Not Iggy. Not Steph. LeBron was so far ahead of everyone else in that series that he deserved to be FMVP despite being on the losing side.

This argument probably means you crown Luka this year, no?

No. I don't think Luka was that far ahead of everyone else. He was ahead but not as far ahead.

What LeBron did in that Finals run was incredible leading Cleveland without Kyrie or K-Love and making CLE competitive against GSW. Luka had a lot more help around him in this series. He wasn't able to elevate his team the way LeBron did.

I think I agree with this - just think it's an interesting thought experiment, especially since it's essentially an unwritten rule at this point that you can't win Finals MVP if your team loses the series.

Also, not only was Luka not that far ahead of everyone else, but it was also a barely competitive gentleman?s sweep. I think you can only consider placing a loser as the Finals MVP if they?re both (a) far and away better than anyone on the winning team, and (b) it was an actual competitive series, likely 7 games.

A good example of just how little the point differential matters after the dust settles on the series, perhaps. 

I agree with you - but (and someone correct me if I'm wrong, I've got a bit of flu) coming into last night's game, Luka was leading the league in most of the counting stats that people place emphasis on in the post-season: points, rebounds, assists, etc.

[Moranis]

Brown ended up worse from 3 as well as the line. Much better from 2 though (like 11% better). So the TS% ended up being much closer than it was earlier on with Brown at 53.5 and Tatum at 50.5.   Not sure that 3% makes up for the other things like more rebounds, more assists, and being the focal point of the other team's defense. 

And Brown was a better defender, but I think the difference is being overblown a lot.  Holiday was by far the best defender on the team in the finals and KP in his short time may have been the most important (they could defend differently with KP on the floor).