Author Topic: 2024 NBA Season and Playoffs  (Read 1024933 times)

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Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #615 on: November 05, 2023, 11:07:59 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #616 on: November 05, 2023, 11:36:02 PM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #617 on: November 06, 2023, 12:47:09 AM »

Online tenn_smoothie

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.

Excellent points.

When Grant played down here in Knoxville during college, his public persona was much different. He was seen as the mature, level-headed player who kept the team composed during tough situations. Never acted up on or off court. I met the guy at an event for local kids that was held at UT. Just real easy going and unpretentious. I am 6-7 and was amazed at how relatively short he appeared when I was standing next to him. He was a monster down low in college, SEC Player of the Year two seasons in a row. I never pictured him becoming any kind of 3-point threat and he actually missed his first 25 attempts as a rookie in Boston. I read an article about the practice routine he set for himself to become a good shooter and he certainly achieved that. I wonder also, will replacing him ultimately cost as much as keeping him would have without the current lost manpower. I think Joe completely mismanaged Grant and made him staying a Celtic much less likely. We gave him away and here we sit desperately looking to add depth in the post. We are entering a title winning window and need to pay what it costs to take advantage of it.














































































































































































































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The Four Celtic Lieutenants:
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Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #618 on: November 06, 2023, 05:07:08 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2023, 05:14:33 AM by Kernewek »
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #619 on: November 06, 2023, 05:46:54 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous. 

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #620 on: November 06, 2023, 05:54:26 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #621 on: November 06, 2023, 06:15:51 AM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous.

Someone please clarify - reports said that the Celtics would receive Memphis’ 2023 pick (25) AND the GSW 2024 pick (via Memphis). The Cs didn’t actually receive the 2023 Memphis pick - and it was later traded by Memphis to the Pistons. What happened?

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #622 on: November 06, 2023, 06:22:57 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous.

TP for the tournament tracker - definitely helps to keep things in order.

100% they were trying to trade Brogdon instead of Smart, which is reasonable I think. And I think a lot of it was (and is) post-trade rationalisation, as these things tend to go, but I'm thinking of these kinds of comments (which don't name Smart or Grant specifically [or Timelord, for that matter], but are fairly simple to parse), which he's made in different ways since the summer and beyond:

Quote
Do you think it’s just bad luck, or what?

Well, I want to say right up front we lost to two good teams. The Heat were a good team last season, and the Warriors were a good team the year before. Having said that, I feel like we could have gotten by both of them if we’d played to our full potential. But I thought we were inconsistent, so we spent all summer trying to construct a roster for this upcoming season that’s going to have consistency and as much talent as possible.

Quote
Biggest change for the coming season?

Well, we’re going to miss Marcus Smart and Grant Williams, two really good guys. But we’ve hit the reset button on the team, and now we have some new players, including KP—Kristaps Porzingis—and a new starting lineup. That’s really the biggest change. We deliberately decided not to bring back the exact same team, which had a lot of success but ended up being inconsistent.
https://www.bostonmagazine.com/arts-entertainment/2023/11/02/wyc-grousbeck/

Quote
“I sat there probably the whole second half of [Game 7] starting to think about [making changes],” he said of the Celtics’ roster. “Then I took two days to let everything settle down and then went and met with Brad Stevens and Joe Mazzulla and we formulated a plan. I just said, ‘We’re not bringing back the same team.’

Quote
“It’s been two seasons in a row of really good play but inconsistencies, and they showed in the Finals two years ago, and then in the Conference Finals last year,” Grousbeck said of recent Celtics history. “It just felt inconsistent. I said I just wanted to change the mix so that there’s a fresh approach. So we made some changes in the summer.”

Out went Marcus Smart, Malcolm Brogdon, Grant Williams, and Rob Williams. In came Kristaps Porzingis and Jrue Holiday.

In Grousbeck’s view, head coach Joe Mazzulla was not to blame for the outcome of last season.

“I look back at last year not as a failure of coaching or a failure of anything else, I just thought we got inconsistent at the end,” he explained. “I think there’s been buy-in. But part of mixing it up — which we did deliberately over the summer — [was to] just make some changes. Bring in Porzingis, bring in Holiday as an example, mixing it up. There’s just a freshness and electricity around the practice facility that does feel actually a little bit different.”
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/10/25/wyc-grousbeck-celtics-offseason-changes/

Quote
I’d put the last two seasons together almost. We had really talented teams for the last two years, but inconsistency at the end of each of the last two seasons cost us. I mean, we lost to two good teams — the Warriors and the Heat. But it felt like we could have done a better job and had a better outcome. So I lump the last two seasons together and say that they were missed opportunities."

Quote
How do you juxtapose that you missed two good chances to win a title but are also clearly right on the cusp?
"I just take it and move forward with it. So when I met with [president of basketball operations Brad Stevens] and [Mazzulla] after the season to plan going forward, we agreed not to bring back the exact same team again, but to be open to changing the mix and bringing in additional talent. And the result of that so far this offseason has been Kristaps Porzingis coming in and really adding, hopefully, a lot to our lineup."

What was that conversation like with Brad and Joe when you realized you needed changes rather than believing you could try again with the same group?
The general tone was, how do we take this energy we’re feeling right now that was built up over having two good seasons but then didn’t get all the way? The whole point is, how do we get to Banner 18? If we’d all agreed we should keep things the same, that would have been fine. But the idea of bringing in another talented big popped up early in the conversation, and we ended up executing on that idea.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/08/07/sports/wyc-grousbeck-celtics-interview/
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #623 on: November 06, 2023, 06:51:35 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous.

TP for the tournament tracker - definitely helps to keep things in order.

100% they were trying to trade Brogdon instead of Smart, which is reasonable I think. And I think a lot of it was (and is) post-trade rationalisation, as these things tend to go, but I'm thinking of these kinds of comments (which don't name Smart or Grant specifically [or Timelord, for that matter], but are fairly simple to parse), which he's made in different ways since the summer and beyond:

Quote
Do you think it’s just bad luck, or what?

Well, I want to say right up front we lost to two good teams. The Heat were a good team last season, and the Warriors were a good team the year before. Having said that, I feel like we could have gotten by both of them if we’d played to our full potential. But I thought we were inconsistent, so we spent all summer trying to construct a roster for this upcoming season that’s going to have consistency and as much talent as possible.

Quote
Biggest change for the coming season?

Well, we’re going to miss Marcus Smart and Grant Williams, two really good guys. But we’ve hit the reset button on the team, and now we have some new players, including KP—Kristaps Porzingis—and a new starting lineup. That’s really the biggest change. We deliberately decided not to bring back the exact same team, which had a lot of success but ended up being inconsistent.
https://www.bostonmagazine.com/arts-entertainment/2023/11/02/wyc-grousbeck/

Quote
“I sat there probably the whole second half of [Game 7] starting to think about [making changes],” he said of the Celtics’ roster. “Then I took two days to let everything settle down and then went and met with Brad Stevens and Joe Mazzulla and we formulated a plan. I just said, ‘We’re not bringing back the same team.’

Quote
“It’s been two seasons in a row of really good play but inconsistencies, and they showed in the Finals two years ago, and then in the Conference Finals last year,” Grousbeck said of recent Celtics history. “It just felt inconsistent. I said I just wanted to change the mix so that there’s a fresh approach. So we made some changes in the summer.”

Out went Marcus Smart, Malcolm Brogdon, Grant Williams, and Rob Williams. In came Kristaps Porzingis and Jrue Holiday.

In Grousbeck’s view, head coach Joe Mazzulla was not to blame for the outcome of last season.

“I look back at last year not as a failure of coaching or a failure of anything else, I just thought we got inconsistent at the end,” he explained. “I think there’s been buy-in. But part of mixing it up — which we did deliberately over the summer — [was to] just make some changes. Bring in Porzingis, bring in Holiday as an example, mixing it up. There’s just a freshness and electricity around the practice facility that does feel actually a little bit different.”
https://www.boston.com/sports/boston-celtics/2023/10/25/wyc-grousbeck-celtics-offseason-changes/

Quote
I’d put the last two seasons together almost. We had really talented teams for the last two years, but inconsistency at the end of each of the last two seasons cost us. I mean, we lost to two good teams — the Warriors and the Heat. But it felt like we could have done a better job and had a better outcome. So I lump the last two seasons together and say that they were missed opportunities."

Quote
How do you juxtapose that you missed two good chances to win a title but are also clearly right on the cusp?
"I just take it and move forward with it. So when I met with [president of basketball operations Brad Stevens] and [Mazzulla] after the season to plan going forward, we agreed not to bring back the exact same team again, but to be open to changing the mix and bringing in additional talent. And the result of that so far this offseason has been Kristaps Porzingis coming in and really adding, hopefully, a lot to our lineup."

What was that conversation like with Brad and Joe when you realized you needed changes rather than believing you could try again with the same group?
The general tone was, how do we take this energy we’re feeling right now that was built up over having two good seasons but then didn’t get all the way? The whole point is, how do we get to Banner 18? If we’d all agreed we should keep things the same, that would have been fine. But the idea of bringing in another talented big popped up early in the conversation, and we ended up executing on that idea.
https://www.bostonglobe.com/2023/08/07/sports/wyc-grousbeck-celtics-interview/
TP back at you for the quotes.  I was giving Stevens credit for shaking things up but it looks like Wyc was the catalyst.  Very glad he didn't want to stand pat. 

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #624 on: November 06, 2023, 07:06:04 AM »

Offline tazzmaniac

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous.

Someone please clarify - reports said that the Celtics would receive Memphis’ 2023 pick (25) AND the GSW 2024 pick (via Memphis). The Cs didn’t actually receive the 2023 Memphis pick - and it was later traded by Memphis to the Pistons. What happened?
Celts did get the 25th pick but traded back 3 times eventually taking Jordan Walsh at 38.  Then Stevens traded the 39th pick that had been acquired in all the wheeling and dealing.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/celtics-draft-jordan-walsh-trade-back-four-times-2023-nba-draft-brad-stevens-bill-belichick/

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #625 on: November 06, 2023, 08:28:19 AM »

Offline Roy H.

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous.

Someone please clarify - reports said that the Celtics would receive Memphis’ 2023 pick (25) AND the GSW 2024 pick (via Memphis). The Cs didn’t actually receive the 2023 Memphis pick - and it was later traded by Memphis to the Pistons. What happened?
Celts did get the 25th pick but traded back 3 times eventually taking Jordan Walsh at 38.  Then Stevens traded the 39th pick that had been acquired in all the wheeling and dealing.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/celtics-draft-jordan-walsh-trade-back-four-times-2023-nba-draft-brad-stevens-bill-belichick/

I still think we should have drafted Leonard Miller at #31.  If not Miller, then we should have kept the #39 pick and used it on TJD.


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Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #626 on: November 06, 2023, 09:53:10 AM »

Offline Surferdad

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous.

Someone please clarify - reports said that the Celtics would receive Memphis’ 2023 pick (25) AND the GSW 2024 pick (via Memphis). The Cs didn’t actually receive the 2023 Memphis pick - and it was later traded by Memphis to the Pistons. What happened?
Celts did get the 25th pick but traded back 3 times eventually taking Jordan Walsh at 38.  Then Stevens traded the 39th pick that had been acquired in all the wheeling and dealing.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/celtics-draft-jordan-walsh-trade-back-four-times-2023-nba-draft-brad-stevens-bill-belichick/

I still think we should have drafted Leonard Miller at #31.  If not Miller, then we should have kept the #39 pick and used it on TJD.
Eh, I kinda like what Brad did there: He didn't have to pay a 1st round rate for a rookie, which gave them financial flexibility, PLUS got 3 future 2nd round picks which is excellent Monopoly money in future trades. On top of that, I'm high on Jordan Walsh future upside as a frontcourt version of Tony Allen.

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #627 on: November 06, 2023, 03:52:03 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.

I know he's not as good as Wallace, I just needed an example of somebody who would actually be hard for any coach to handle. My point was that handling Grant should have been relatively easy. Part of the narrative that has arisen post the offseason is Smart, Brogdon, and Grant clashed to varying degrees with Joe and that was a part of the calculus in moving them. I understand why Smart would be hard to handle, because he had been there longer than Joe, felt like he was a team leader, and as the PG had control over a lot of what happened on the court. However, Grant and Brogdon? How did you lose them?

Also, I still don't get how Mazzulla seemingly didn't value Grant's skillset but then reversed course and played him more minutes in the playoffs. Did he like Grant or not? If you were playing him, isn't that an acknowledgement that your original analysis was wrong? I don't like this explanation (I believe in the Weiss piece) that they thought Hauser needed to be given reps before the playoffs and that they knew Grant would be fine either way. What about Grant's reps? What about his reputation being tarnished during a contract year?

Anyway, he likely wasn't going to be a starter here so I understand that keeping him here against his will was a risk. However, I can't help but wonder if the situation were handled better that they could have figured something out.

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #628 on: November 06, 2023, 04:18:10 PM »

Offline obnoxiousmime

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Man, I understand why we let him go but still.... somebody like Grant that is a role player but confident enough to let it fly from 3 and isn't a bad defender is just so rare. Maybe he was immature, maybe he wanted to do more, maybe he talked too much, or wasn't professional enough in practice. I don't care, maybe it's Mazzulla's job to, I don't know, make sure a useful player stays invested? Is that so hard? Did Grant just openly dis Mazzulla in the locker room or something?

When he made all those 3s in the Bucks playoffs, I thought that this is a guy who isn't afraid of the moment. Look at all these so-called "sharpshooters" around the league that aren't consistent both in makes but also in their willingness to shoot. It's all mental, and that's what Grant has and they don't. Like, how many teams has Luke Kennard been on?

I just don't think there's any way the TPE will result in a player as good as Grant, which sucks. We could have 7 two-way guys we trust right now in the rotation instead of 6. Oh well, that's my lament for the day.

Grant is young and at his peak earning capability right now. He is the third or fourth option on Dallas. He was going to be the 6th or 7th option here. It makes sense he didn’t want to be here over that. Just bad timing

Sure, I get it. However, I think a good coach that hadn't already destroyed the relationship would have been able to figure it out. The Cs could have matched and then dealt him a year later. It's not like Grant is Rasheed Wallace or something. He's just an immature, talkative kid. I know they didn't want to pay the extra tax, but look at where we are now. We have a Grant-sized hole in our lineup (and in our HEARTS). The guy just makes shots, doesn't get hurt, and can move his feet like few his size can. Besides, you know the way the roster is now they're likely going to be eyeing that TPE and they'll be paying extra penalties on that anyway.
It's a good post, but for starters, he's not nearly as good as Rasheed Wallace was at 24.

Do we need Williams down low? No. Do we need his shooting from deep? no. Would he be great as insurance off the bench? Of course, but that's not, and shouldn't be, his prerogative right now. In our perfect world, he's not playing nearly as much as he should be, as clay alluded to.

I do think the offseason narrative, floated by Wyc and others, that Boston needed to flip Smart and Grant because somehow they were preventing the Jays from really reaching their potential is insane. If your best players are being stymied because of a guy like Grant Williams being on your roster, there are significant problems with your organisation that go well beyond the players.
That is a weird narrative.  Was it really floated by Wyc and others regarding Smart?  I wasn't paying too much attention but I thought they were trying to trade Brogdon not Smart.  Regarding Smart, the narrative should have just been we got incredible value for him.  Smart and the 2nd rounder for KP would have been a good trade.  To get 2 1sts as well is ridiculous.

Someone please clarify - reports said that the Celtics would receive Memphis’ 2023 pick (25) AND the GSW 2024 pick (via Memphis). The Cs didn’t actually receive the 2023 Memphis pick - and it was later traded by Memphis to the Pistons. What happened?
Celts did get the 25th pick but traded back 3 times eventually taking Jordan Walsh at 38.  Then Stevens traded the 39th pick that had been acquired in all the wheeling and dealing.

https://www.cbsnews.com/boston/news/celtics-draft-jordan-walsh-trade-back-four-times-2023-nba-draft-brad-stevens-bill-belichick/

I still think we should have drafted Leonard Miller at #31.  If not Miller, then we should have kept the #39 pick and used it on TJD.

Even though I like Walsh, Miller has that tantalizing upside and the measurables advantage. I was hoping the Celtics would take him when they were in that range. Also, we need someone at that 3-4-5 position as opposed to a Walsh who is really more like a 2-3-4. Anyway, I would hope if the Cs did really like Miller, they would have just taken him instead of fixating on asset collection. If they do end up using the acquired 2nd rounders to acquire a win-now role player, however, it makes more sense.

Re: NBA Season 2023-24
« Reply #629 on: November 06, 2023, 04:49:48 PM »

Offline bdm860

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TP back at you for the quotes.  I was giving Stevens credit for shaking things up but it looks like Wyc was the catalyst.  Very glad he didn't want to stand pat.

Maybe it's part of my preconceived notion about some of these super successful multi-millionaires/billionaire types, but Wyc often rubs me the wrong way with some of his statements, in the way he tries to take credit for things.

There's his comments recently that Kernewek just posted, and then there were his comments about the famous KG/Pierce Brooklyn trade.  If you listen to him tell it, he was the mastermind behind getting all those picks from Brooklyn.

Quote
As I recall — and Danny may remember slightly differently — but as I recall, he came to me with that deal on draft day [in 2013] and said, “We’re going to get two first-round picks from Brooklyn for [Garnett, Pierce, Terry, and White], and take on some contracts.” And I said, “OK, are [the picks] unprotected?” And he said, “Yes, in fact, they are.” I said, “Great. Let’s go get a third pick.” And he goes, “Whoa, whoa, whoa,” but, “All right, I’ll ask.” And he’s not afraid to ask, he wasn’t pushing back. But he went and asked, and he said, “Unbelievable. We got a third pick. This is great.” And I said, “Great. Go get a fourth pick. I think these guys have deal fever — we’re going to keep going until they say no. I think they’ve been told by ownership to get the deal done, so let’s go back.” And Danny sort of gave me a look, like I don’t want to lose the deal by pushing too hard. Normally we try to play down the middle of the road with people, [but] I said, “Go push aggressively for a fourth pick.”

And so he went back, he came back to me and he said, “OK, you’ve got your wish. They’ve said no now … they’re not going to give us a fourth pick.” I said fine, make that fourth pick into a swap. Because swapping a pick doesn’t feel like you’re losing a pick. You still have a pick, and it’s pretty unlikely that we would be able to swap — that would mean we were better than they are. And we think they’re going to be pretty good with this trade. So just get the swap and call it a day. So we got that swap, and that swap turned into Jayson Tatum and another first-round pick — it turned into the number-one pick in [last] year’s draft [which was later traded to Philadelphia]. That’s how the Brooklyn trade evolved as I recall it, which was working together with Danny to get the best possible deal out of Brooklyn.

So it seems there's one of two things probably going on:

Wyc was really the mastermind behind Danny and now Brad's biggest moves.

Wyc hired really smart people to work for him, then takes the credit for their work.

I tend not to believe "there's going to be fireworks" Wyc so much.  Like a lot of successful businessmen, I think there's a lot of politician to him, taking credit for things that he had minimal involvement in, and/or pandering to his audience (like in the past when he said the team's willing to spend yet they didn't, or his recent comments about wanting to bring the WNBA to Boston when it's unlikely for a variety of reasons).

I'm still giving credit to Brad on this one.

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