2024 NBA Season and Playoffs

[Big333223]

Dame's non existent half hearted defence mercilessly exposed in this excellent article
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/damian-lillard-is-playing-the-worst-defense-of-his-career-and-it-might-cost-more-than-just-the-bucks/

This was definitely my concern (hope?) when the trade went down. If they just can't get their defense together, it'll be nice to not have to worry so much about the Bucks.

TP for posting the article. Probably the first time I've ever actually heard someone take Dame to task. For whatever reason, he's one of those guys who just gets a pass no matter what (Jimmy Butler is another one who leaps to mind). If Dame's tenure with the Bucks never produces a true contender, I wonder how the narrative for him would change.

[Phantom255x]

Lot of people said the Grizz were better off without Morant but idk... 0-7 to start without him

[Celtics Mike]

Dame's non existent half hearted defence mercilessly exposed in this excellent article
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/damian-lillard-is-playing-the-worst-defense-of-his-career-and-it-might-cost-more-than-just-the-bucks/

This was definitely my concern (hope?) when the trade went down. If they just can't get their defense together, it'll be nice to not have to worry so much about the Bucks.

TP for posting the article. Probably the first time I've ever actually heard someone take Dame to task. For whatever reason, he's one of those guys who just gets a pass no matter what (Jimmy Butler is another one who leaps to mind). If Dame's tenure with the Bucks never produces a true contender, I wonder how the narrative for him would change.

It certainly changes the narrative. I expect JT to hunt him down and attack him. A definite mismatch.

[Celtics Mike]

Lot of people said the Grizz were better off without Morant but idk... 0-7 to start without him

Sadly Morant has more baggage than an airport carousel

[Goldstar88]

Suns just loss to the 76ers 100-112. Phoenix is now 2-4, Philly is 4-1. How long until KD asks for a trade?

Where would he request a trade to?  Miami?

Lakers, Miami, maybe Knicks… I was being somewhat facetious before, but you never know these days.

[jpotter33]

Wrong thread.

[Who]

Haliburton with 43 points on only 21 shots with 7-7 FTs. Plus another 12 assists on top of that.

Huge performance.

[hpantazo]

Suns just loss to the 76ers 100-112. Phoenix is now 2-4, Philly is 4-1. How long until KD asks for a trade?

Where would he request a trade to?  Miami?

Lakers, Miami, maybe Knicks… I was being somewhat facetious before, but you never know these days.

What exactly can the Lakers trade for him? AD?

[RodyTur10]

Dame's non existent half hearted defence mercilessly exposed in this excellent article
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/damian-lillard-is-playing-the-worst-defense-of-his-career-and-it-might-cost-more-than-just-the-bucks/

Interesting article. As a small superstar guard there's not a lot more than you can ask for with the help of Antetokounmpo, Lopez, Middleton and Beasley. The writer argues that if Lillard can't compete with this roster it's the end of the small guard as a building block. Perhaps how non-multidimensional centers have become an afterthought on the payroll.

There may be some truth to this. Somewhat exaggerated there is the theory "the offense is as strong as your strongest attacker and the defense is as weak as your weakest link".

However, the Nuggets did just win the title with Jamal Murray at point guard. But like Irving he did it with the best player in the NBA at that time (James and Jokic). Is playing with a MVP the exception to the rule? And isn't Antetokounmpo also a former MVP or has he declined too much due to injuries and age (11th season)?

Are the Celtics on to something with the All Defense-backcourt in Holiday/White? Or is it all about the Moranis-MVP-argument that contending is dependent on the development of Tatum? And is focussing on other strategic team building almost useless? And where does the MVP-level-argument stop?

I think there would be consensus on Jokic, Embiid and Curry. Does Tatum belong? How about Doncic, Mitchell and SGA? Older former (Finals) MVP's: Antetokounmpo, Durant, James or healthy Leonard? Do they count?

If we disregard any team (without a MVP-type) with a (young) small or defensively weak guard as a likely contender for now and the future that would include almost all teams in the East besides the Celtics:

Cleveland (Garland, or does Mitchell count?), Atlanta (Young), New York (Brunson/Grimes), Miami (Herro), Chicago (White/LaVine), Indiana (Haliburton, some length to grow as a defender?), Charlotte (LaMelo Ball, same argument as Haliburton?), Detroit (Ivey/Cunningham), Toronto (Schröder), Brooklyn (Thomas) and Washington (Poole).

So Philadelphia (Maxey, countered by current MVP Embiid) is the only real obstacle for the Celtics to the conference title if we hardline the MVP-argument against Antetokounmpo and discount Milwaukee (Lillard). As a side note, is Orlando silently with a not an all that inspiring but defensively solid Fultz-Suggs backcourt actually on the right track?

In the West it's not all that different: Phoenix (Booker/Beal, but Durant?), LA Lakers (Russell, but James?), Dallas (Irving, but Doncic?), LA Clippers (Harden, but Leonard?), Sacramento (Fox/Huerter), Memphis (Morant), New Orleans (McCollum), Portland (Henderson/Simons), Utah (Clarkson/Sexton) and Houston (Green).

Minnesota (Edwards, inconsistent on defense but not a small frame) is on the edge. But Denver (Murray-KCP with Jokic) and Golden State (Curry-Thompson) would then be favorites in the West. And we also have OKC (SGA-Dort) and San Antonio (Sochan-Vassell).

The hard "You can't win with a small-guard-without-a-true-MVP"-theory indicates that Boston, Philadelphia, Denver and Golden State are the only contenders this season. And for the (perhaps near) future we should keep an eye on San Antonio (Sochan/Vassell with Wenbanyama), OKC (SGA/Dort with Holmgren) and Orlando (Fultz/Suggs with F.Wagner and Banchero).

[Celtics Mike]

Dame's non existent half hearted defence mercilessly exposed in this excellent article
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/damian-lillard-is-playing-the-worst-defense-of-his-career-and-it-might-cost-more-than-just-the-bucks/

Interesting article. As a small superstar guard there's not a lot more than you can ask for with the help of Antetokounmpo, Lopez, Middleton and Beasley. The writer argues that if Lillard can't compete with this roster it's the end of the small guard as a building block. Perhaps how non-multidimensional centers have become an afterthought on the payroll.

There may be some truth to this. Somewhat exaggerated there is the theory "the offense is as strong as your strongest attacker and the defense is as weak as your weakest link".

However, the Nuggets did just win the title with Jamal Murray at point guard. But like Irving he did it with the best player in the NBA at that time (James and Jokic). Is playing with a MVP the exception to the rule? And isn't Antetokounmpo also a former MVP or has he declined too much due to injuries and age (11th season)?

Are the Celtics on to something with the All Defense-backcourt in Holiday/White? Or is it all about the Moranis-MVP-argument that contending is dependent on the development of Tatum? And is focussing on other strategic team building almost useless? And where does the MVP-level-argument stop?

I think there would be consensus on Jokic, Embiid and Curry. Does Tatum belong? How about Doncic, Mitchell and SGA? Older former (Finals) MVP's: Antetokounmpo, Durant, James or healthy Leonard? Do they count?

If we disregard any team (without a MVP-type) with a (young) small or defensively weak guard as a likely contender for now and the future that would include almost all teams in the East besides the Celtics:

Cleveland (Garland, or does Mitchell count?), Atlanta (Young), New York (Brunson/Grimes), Miami (Herro), Chicago (White/LaVine), Indiana (Haliburton, some length to grow as a defender?), Charlotte (LaMelo Ball, same argument as Haliburton?), Detroit (Ivey/Cunningham), Toronto (Schröder), Brooklyn (Thomas) and Washington (Poole).

So Philadelphia (Maxey, countered by current MVP Embiid) is the only real obstacle for the Celtics to the conference title if we hardline the MVP-argument against Antetokounmpo and discount Milwaukee (Lillard). As a side note, is Orlando silently with a not an all that inspiring but defensively solid Fultz-Suggs backcourt actually on the right track?

In the West it's not all that different: Phoenix (Booker/Beal, but Durant?), LA Lakers (Russell, but James?), Dallas (Irving, but Doncic?), LA Clippers (Harden, but Leonard?), Sacramento (Fox/Huerter), Memphis (Morant), New Orleans (McCollum), Portland (Henderson/Simons), Utah (Clarkson/Sexton) and Houston (Green).

Minnesota (Edwards, inconsistent on defense but not a small frame) is on the edge. But Denver (Murray-KCP with Jokic) and Golden State (Curry-Thompson) would then be favorites in the West. And we also have OKC (SGA-Dort) and San Antonio (Sochan-Vassell).

The hard "You can't win with a small-guard-without-a-true-MVP"-theory indicates that Boston, Philadelphia, Denver and Golden State are the only contenders this season. And for the (perhaps near) future we should keep an eye on San Antonio (Sochan/Vassell with Wenbanyama), OKC (SGA/Dort with Holmgren) and Orlando (Fultz/Suggs with F.Wagner and Banchero).

A very interesting and valid point you make about the decline of Gianni's after 11 Seasons in the NBA. Have all those years crashing the paint and the multiple injuries taken their toll. You do have to wonder whether Gianni's has now passed his peak. Bigs do tend to decline rapidly in the NBA. Fortunately fom a Celtics perspective Tatum should now have his peak years ahead of him and the durable Al Horford has aged well. I can't imagine Giannis and Embiid still operating at an elite level when they are 37 years old.

[Who]

Milwaukee should never have hired a rookie head coach.

[SparzWizard]

Ah, Celtics win and Lakers lose...what a good day. 

Now if the New England Patriots can lose tomorrow to bolster their draft position that would be even better! I can't believe NE is -2.5 tomorrow...I'll take WSH.

[tazzmaniac]

Dame's non existent half hearted defence mercilessly exposed in this excellent article
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/damian-lillard-is-playing-the-worst-defense-of-his-career-and-it-might-cost-more-than-just-the-bucks/

Interesting article. As a small superstar guard there's not a lot more than you can ask for with the help of Antetokounmpo, Lopez, Middleton and Beasley. The writer argues that if Lillard can't compete with this roster it's the end of the small guard as a building block. Perhaps how non-multidimensional centers have become an afterthought on the payroll.

There may be some truth to this. Somewhat exaggerated there is the theory "the offense is as strong as your strongest attacker and the defense is as weak as your weakest link".

However, the Nuggets did just win the title with Jamal Murray at point guard. But like Irving he did it with the best player in the NBA at that time (James and Jokic). Is playing with a MVP the exception to the rule? And isn't Antetokounmpo also a former MVP or has he declined too much due to injuries and age (11th season)?

Are the Celtics on to something with the All Defense-backcourt in Holiday/White? Or is it all about the Moranis-MVP-argument that contending is dependent on the development of Tatum? And is focussing on other strategic team building almost useless? And where does the MVP-level-argument stop?

I think there would be consensus on Jokic, Embiid and Curry. Does Tatum belong? How about Doncic, Mitchell and SGA? Older former (Finals) MVP's: Antetokounmpo, Durant, James or healthy Leonard? Do they count?

If we disregard any team (without a MVP-type) with a (young) small or defensively weak guard as a likely contender for now and the future that would include almost all teams in the East besides the Celtics:

Cleveland (Garland, or does Mitchell count?), Atlanta (Young), New York (Brunson/Grimes), Miami (Herro), Chicago (White/LaVine), Indiana (Haliburton, some length to grow as a defender?), Charlotte (LaMelo Ball, same argument as Haliburton?), Detroit (Ivey/Cunningham), Toronto (Schröder), Brooklyn (Thomas) and Washington (Poole).

So Philadelphia (Maxey, countered by current MVP Embiid) is the only real obstacle for the Celtics to the conference title if we hardline the MVP-argument against Antetokounmpo and discount Milwaukee (Lillard). As a side note, is Orlando silently with a not an all that inspiring but defensively solid Fultz-Suggs backcourt actually on the right track?

In the West it's not all that different: Phoenix (Booker/Beal, but Durant?), LA Lakers (Russell, but James?), Dallas (Irving, but Doncic?), LA Clippers (Harden, but Leonard?), Sacramento (Fox/Huerter), Memphis (Morant), New Orleans (McCollum), Portland (Henderson/Simons), Utah (Clarkson/Sexton) and Houston (Green).

Minnesota (Edwards, inconsistent on defense but not a small frame) is on the edge. But Denver (Murray-KCP with Jokic) and Golden State (Curry-Thompson) would then be favorites in the West. And we also have OKC (SGA-Dort) and San Antonio (Sochan-Vassell).

The hard "You can't win with a small-guard-without-a-true-MVP"-theory indicates that Boston, Philadelphia, Denver and Golden State are the only contenders this season. And for the (perhaps near) future we should keep an eye on San Antonio (Sochan/Vassell with Wenbanyama), OKC (SGA/Dort with Holmgren) and Orlando (Fultz/Suggs with F.Wagner and Banchero).

A very interesting and valid point you make about the decline of Gianni's after 11 Seasons in the NBA. Have all those years crashing the paint and the multiple injuries taken their toll. You do have to wonder whether Gianni's has now passed his peak. Bigs do tend to decline rapidly in the NBA. Fortunately fom a Celtics perspective Tatum should now have his peak years ahead of him and the durable Al Horford has aged well. I can't imagine Giannis and Embiid still operating at an elite level when they are 37 years old.

Horford is far from elite now and he's never been elite.  To put him in the same conversation as Giannis and Embiid is silly.  Giannis will turn 29 in a month and Embiid is 29.  They are both in their prime.   Giannis doesn't shoot well and is very dependent on his athleticism so it will be interesting to see how long he can remain elite.  Embiid on the other hand is a very shooter and not that dependent on his athleticism.  He also hasn't played that much basketball.  Giannis has nearly twice as minutes played.  Tatum, while just 25, has 2300+ more minutes played than Embiid which is roughly a full season.  So I could see Embiid staying elite longer. 

[Neurotic Guy]

Dame's non existent half hearted defence mercilessly exposed in this excellent article
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/damian-lillard-is-playing-the-worst-defense-of-his-career-and-it-might-cost-more-than-just-the-bucks/

Interesting article. As a small superstar guard there's not a lot more than you can ask for with the help of Antetokounmpo, Lopez, Middleton and Beasley. The writer argues that if Lillard can't compete with this roster it's the end of the small guard as a building block. Perhaps how non-multidimensional centers have become an afterthought on the payroll.

There may be some truth to this. Somewhat exaggerated there is the theory "the offense is as strong as your strongest attacker and the defense is as weak as your weakest link".

However, the Nuggets did just win the title with Jamal Murray at point guard. But like Irving he did it with the best player in the NBA at that time (James and Jokic). Is playing with a MVP the exception to the rule? And isn't Antetokounmpo also a former MVP or has he declined too much due to injuries and age (11th season)?

Are the Celtics on to something with the All Defense-backcourt in Holiday/White? Or is it all about the Moranis-MVP-argument that contending is dependent on the development of Tatum? And is focussing on other strategic team building almost useless? And where does the MVP-level-argument stop?

I think there would be consensus on Jokic, Embiid and Curry. Does Tatum belong? How about Doncic, Mitchell and SGA? Older former (Finals) MVP's: Antetokounmpo, Durant, James or healthy Leonard? Do they count?

If we disregard any team (without a MVP-type) with a (young) small or defensively weak guard as a likely contender for now and the future that would include almost all teams in the East besides the Celtics:

Cleveland (Garland, or does Mitchell count?), Atlanta (Young), New York (Brunson/Grimes), Miami (Herro), Chicago (White/LaVine), Indiana (Haliburton, some length to grow as a defender?), Charlotte (LaMelo Ball, same argument as Haliburton?), Detroit (Ivey/Cunningham), Toronto (Schröder), Brooklyn (Thomas) and Washington (Poole).

So Philadelphia (Maxey, countered by current MVP Embiid) is the only real obstacle for the Celtics to the conference title if we hardline the MVP-argument against Antetokounmpo and discount Milwaukee (Lillard). As a side note, is Orlando silently with a not an all that inspiring but defensively solid Fultz-Suggs backcourt actually on the right track?

In the West it's not all that different: Phoenix (Booker/Beal, but Durant?), LA Lakers (Russell, but James?), Dallas (Irving, but Doncic?), LA Clippers (Harden, but Leonard?), Sacramento (Fox/Huerter), Memphis (Morant), New Orleans (McCollum), Portland (Henderson/Simons), Utah (Clarkson/Sexton) and Houston (Green).

Minnesota (Edwards, inconsistent on defense but not a small frame) is on the edge. But Denver (Murray-KCP with Jokic) and Golden State (Curry-Thompson) would then be favorites in the West. And we also have OKC (SGA-Dort) and San Antonio (Sochan-Vassell).

The hard "You can't win with a small-guard-without-a-true-MVP"-theory indicates that Boston, Philadelphia, Denver and Golden State are the only contenders this season. And for the (perhaps near) future we should keep an eye on San Antonio (Sochan/Vassell with Wenbanyama), OKC (SGA/Dort with Holmgren) and Orlando (Fultz/Suggs with F.Wagner and Banchero).

A very interesting and valid point you make about the decline of Gianni's after 11 Seasons in the NBA. Have all those years crashing the paint and the multiple injuries taken their toll. You do have to wonder whether Gianni's has now passed his peak. Bigs do tend to decline rapidly in the NBA. Fortunately fom a Celtics perspective Tatum should now have his peak years ahead of him and the durable Al Horford has aged well. I can't imagine Giannis and Embiid still operating at an elite level when they are 37 years old.

Horford is far from elite now and he's never been elite.  To put him in the same conversation as Giannis and Embiid is silly.  Giannis will turn 29 in a month and Embiid is 29.  They are both in their prime.   Giannis doesn't shoot well and is very dependent on his athleticism so it will be interesting to see how long he can remain elite.  Embiid on the other hand is a very shooter and not that dependent on his athleticism.  He also hasn't played that much basketball.  Giannis has nearly twice as minutes played.  Tatum, while just 25, has 2300+ more minutes played than Embiid which is roughly a full season.  So I could see Embiid staying elite longer.

Maybe he should have said that he doubts Giannis or Embiid will be playing (even) at Al’s level at 37. May very well be true that they won’t.

[Celtics Mike]

Dame's non existent half hearted defence mercilessly exposed in this excellent article
https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/damian-lillard-is-playing-the-worst-defense-of-his-career-and-it-might-cost-more-than-just-the-bucks/

Interesting article. As a small superstar guard there's not a lot more than you can ask for with the help of Antetokounmpo, Lopez, Middleton and Beasley. The writer argues that if Lillard can't compete with this roster it's the end of the small guard as a building block. Perhaps how non-multidimensional centers have become an afterthought on the payroll.

There may be some truth to this. Somewhat exaggerated there is the theory "the offense is as strong as your strongest attacker and the defense is as weak as your weakest link".

However, the Nuggets did just win the title with Jamal Murray at point guard. But like Irving he did it with the best player in the NBA at that time (James and Jokic). Is playing with a MVP the exception to the rule? And isn't Antetokounmpo also a former MVP or has he declined too much due to injuries and age (11th season)?

Are the Celtics on to something with the All Defense-backcourt in Holiday/White? Or is it all about the Moranis-MVP-argument that contending is dependent on the development of Tatum? And is focussing on other strategic team building almost useless? And where does the MVP-level-argument stop?

I think there would be consensus on Jokic, Embiid and Curry. Does Tatum belong? How about Doncic, Mitchell and SGA? Older former (Finals) MVP's: Antetokounmpo, Durant, James or healthy Leonard? Do they count?

If we disregard any team (without a MVP-type) with a (young) small or defensively weak guard as a likely contender for now and the future that would include almost all teams in the East besides the Celtics:

Cleveland (Garland, or does Mitchell count?), Atlanta (Young), New York (Brunson/Grimes), Miami (Herro), Chicago (White/LaVine), Indiana (Haliburton, some length to grow as a defender?), Charlotte (LaMelo Ball, same argument as Haliburton?), Detroit (Ivey/Cunningham), Toronto (Schröder), Brooklyn (Thomas) and Washington (Poole).

So Philadelphia (Maxey, countered by current MVP Embiid) is the only real obstacle for the Celtics to the conference title if we hardline the MVP-argument against Antetokounmpo and discount Milwaukee (Lillard). As a side note, is Orlando silently with a not an all that inspiring but defensively solid Fultz-Suggs backcourt actually on the right track?

In the West it's not all that different: Phoenix (Booker/Beal, but Durant?), LA Lakers (Russell, but James?), Dallas (Irving, but Doncic?), LA Clippers (Harden, but Leonard?), Sacramento (Fox/Huerter), Memphis (Morant), New Orleans (McCollum), Portland (Henderson/Simons), Utah (Clarkson/Sexton) and Houston (Green).

Minnesota (Edwards, inconsistent on defense but not a small frame) is on the edge. But Denver (Murray-KCP with Jokic) and Golden State (Curry-Thompson) would then be favorites in the West. And we also have OKC (SGA-Dort) and San Antonio (Sochan-Vassell).

The hard "You can't win with a small-guard-without-a-true-MVP"-theory indicates that Boston, Philadelphia, Denver and Golden State are the only contenders this season. And for the (perhaps near) future we should keep an eye on San Antonio (Sochan/Vassell with Wenbanyama), OKC (SGA/Dort with Holmgren) and Orlando (Fultz/Suggs with F.Wagner and Banchero).

A very interesting and valid point you make about the decline of Gianni's after 11 Seasons in the NBA. Have all those years crashing the paint and the multiple injuries taken their toll. You do have to wonder whether Gianni's has now passed his peak. Bigs do tend to decline rapidly in the NBA. Fortunately fom a Celtics perspective Tatum should now have his peak years ahead of him and the durable Al Horford has aged well. I can't imagine Giannis and Embiid still operating at an elite level when they are 37 years old.

Horford is far from elite now and he's never been elite.  To put him in the same conversation as Giannis and Embiid is silly.  Giannis will turn 29 in a month and Embiid is 29.  They are both in their prime.   Giannis doesn't shoot well and is very dependent on his athleticism so it will be interesting to see how long he can remain elite.  Embiid on the other hand is a very shooter and not that dependent on his athleticism.  He also hasn't played that much basketball.  Giannis has nearly twice as minutes played.  Tatum, while just 25, has 2300+ more minutes played than Embiid which is roughly a full season.  So I could see Embiid staying elite longer.

Maybe he should have said that he doubts Giannis or Embiid will be playing (even) at Al’s level at 37. May very well be true that they won’t.

Thanks to both previous posters for their clarification, I didn't intend to compare Al Horford with Embiid and Giannis directly from a purely talent point of view. I was indeed emphasizing Al's longevity and from that perspective it is more appropriate to question whether Giannis or Embiid will still be playing even at Al's level when they are 37.
I think it is also worthy to consider that Al Horford has been an effective wily? defender against both in recent years. To his credit Al Horford certainly bounced back from his ill-fated time at Philly. This may also be due in no small part to the fact that Al was and is a great fit to Boston's system. They don't make the finals nor ECF in the past 2 years without Al's contribution. Reliable and dependable lets get the man his ring this season.