2024 Olympics

[Celtics2021]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

I would be very surprised if said person had a simple XY pair.  XXY is something that exists, and there are both documented cases of male-presenting XXY people who are able to impregnate, as well as female-presenting XXY people who have gotten pregnant, as well as a many (probably a majority) who are not fertile due to the condition.  It?s not an easily answerable question.  There is a lot of grey area with these chromosome disorders, which, while rare, are seen in 1:1000 to 1:2000 of the population, so they are not extraordinarily rare.

[SparzWizard]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

But then you're gonna get folks arguing about exclusion and the unfairness of excluding this particular athlete because of their own biological/natural growth.

A tough one to work around with

[Amonkey]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

Nothing to do with politics. Then you?d be excluding an athlete purely based on their biological makeup. If that gives an unfair advantage, then would we have to exclude Michael Phelps based on his biological makeup?

https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming#

I just don?t think it?s as simple.

[BitterJim]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

That just ignores intersex people entirely, though. If someone has something like androgen insensitivity that leads to them having XY chromosomes but absolutely no male characteristics, should they be disqualified?

Sex isn't just black and white, the grey area is relatively small but when you're looking at women who are at the top of their respective sports it's entirely possible that there's a disproportionate number who fall into it. And in most cases, is that really more of a genetic advantage than practically every other Olympic athlete has? There are definitely Olympic men with significantly higher Testosterone than others, and no matter how hard most of us her tried we could never have made the Olympics in any sport.

At the end of the day, the Olympic committee picked some criteria and she qualified. No matter where they put that criteria some people would get upset, but taking it out on the athlete(s) to push a political agenda is awful.

[boscel33]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

That just ignores intersex people entirely, though. If someone has something like androgen insensitivity that leads to them having XY chromosomes but absolutely no male characteristics, should they be disqualified?

Sex isn't just black and white, the grey area is relatively small but when you're looking at women who are at the top of their respective sports it's entirely possible that there's a disproportionate number who fall into it. And in most cases, is that really more of a genetic advantage than practically every other Olympic athlete has? There are definitely Olympic men with significantly higher Testosterone than others, and no matter how hard most of us her tried we could never have made the Olympics in any sport.

At the end of the day, the Olympic committee picked some criteria and she qualified. No matter where they put that criteria some people would get upset, but taking it out on the athlete(s) to push a political agenda is awful.

Swyer syndrome!  A person will have an XY pairing, female appearances, female genitalia, but no ovaries. That person may have higher levels of testosterone but undergo hormone treatments to enable her to develop.  She can't help if she was born that way! 

[Roy H.]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

Nothing to do with politics. Then you?d be excluding an athlete purely based on their biological makeup. If that gives an unfair advantage, then would we have to exclude Michael Phelps based on his biological makeup?

https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming#

I just don?t think it?s as simple.

The world isn't perfectly fair.  Excluding people with XY chromosomes and increased testosterone in reasonable.  It's a non-arbitrary standard that keeps the playing field level, while potentially excluding about .018% of the population overall (very, very few of whom would ever be Olympic athletes).

1/500,000 of all people make the Olympics.  1.8/10000 are intersex.  So, odds are 1.8/5,000,000,000.  That's pretty close to perfect fairness.

[Amonkey]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

Nothing to do with politics. Then you?d be excluding an athlete purely based on their biological makeup. If that gives an unfair advantage, then would we have to exclude Michael Phelps based on his biological makeup?

https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming#

I just don?t think it?s as simple.

The world isn't perfectly fair.  Excluding people with XY chromosomes and increased testosterone in reasonable.  It's a non-arbitrary standard that keeps the playing field level, while potentially excluding about .018% of the population overall (very, very few of whom would ever be Olympic athletes).

1/500,000 of all people make the Olympics.  1.8/10000 are intersex.  So, odds are 1.8/5,000,000,000.  That's pretty close to perfect fairness.

But like I said, why not include others with abnormalities that gives them a competitive advantage such as Michael Phelps with a higher lung capacity than other normal human beings? Seems like we?d be opening a pandora box of what is acceptable and isn?t.

[celticinorlando]

Team USA swimming really disappointing. Won a lot of lower medals but blown out in most of the races for gold?.races we are accustomed to winning.

Just don?t see the next great American swimmer among this group.


Program seems to be a bit down this cycle.

[mobilija]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

Nothing to do with politics. Then you?d be excluding an athlete purely based on their biological makeup. If that gives an unfair advantage, then would we have to exclude Michael Phelps based on his biological makeup?

https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming#

I just don?t think it?s as simple.

The world isn't perfectly fair.  Excluding people with XY chromosomes and increased testosterone in reasonable.  It's a non-arbitrary standard that keeps the playing field level, while potentially excluding about .018% of the population overall (very, very few of whom would ever be Olympic athletes).

1/500,000 of all people make the Olympics.  1.8/10000 are intersex.  So, odds are 1.8/5,000,000,000.  That's pretty close to perfect fairness.

I think your logic is flawed. A female with an XY chromosome and more testosterone is a better athlete. People who are better athletes are more likely to be Olympians. So the pool of Olympians is likely to have a higher incidence rate of these people over the pool everybody.

Edited my bad math. Two independent events. Tho I?m not entirely sure they are independent events.

[Roy H.]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

Like mostly every issue, its more complicated than the talking heads want you to think it is. At least the same right wingers aren't targeting trans kids (hopefully). Imane Khelif is 25, so the criticisms are at least a little less vile.

Not to say that she shouldn?t be competing. I do think the high levels of testosterone does give her a competitive advantage but what is the solution? Maybe testosterone blockers? Estrogen? That may also mess up with her body. I really don?t know what the answer but and I completely understand the concern of her opponents.

However, it bothers me when people are either being knowingly stupid or ignorantly stupid when people try to explain the situation and they are being stubborn about it.

I guess my point is that its a complicated situation and people come up with simplified solutions. Maybe its human nature to make things easier to understand. Either way, its a wedge issue that does more to divide people than unite, which is the entire purpose of the Olympics.

I think there probably *is* a simplified answer, though:  if somebody has XY chromosomes -- particularly in combination with heightened testosterone -- they shouldn't be allowed to compete as a woman.

Why is that not the proper answer?  Politics shouldn't play a role, but fairness of the playing field should, I think.

Nothing to do with politics. Then you?d be excluding an athlete purely based on their biological makeup. If that gives an unfair advantage, then would we have to exclude Michael Phelps based on his biological makeup?

https://www.biography.com/athletes/michael-phelp-perfect-body-swimming#

I just don?t think it?s as simple.

The world isn't perfectly fair.  Excluding people with XY chromosomes and increased testosterone in reasonable.  It's a non-arbitrary standard that keeps the playing field level, while potentially excluding about .018% of the population overall (very, very few of whom would ever be Olympic athletes).

1/500,000 of all people make the Olympics.  1.8/10000 are intersex.  So, odds are 1.8/5,000,000,000.  That's pretty close to perfect fairness.

I think your logic is flawed. A female with an XY chromosome and more testosterone is a better athlete. People who are better athletes are more likely to be Olympians. So the pool of Olympians is likely to have a higher incidence rate of these people over the pool everybody.

Edited my bad math. Two independent events.

You're correct that intersex people who have XY chromosomes and increased testosterone are likely to be better athletes than a non-intersex woman.  That's the point, though.

The solution is either allow all female's testosterone supplements (which is a bad idea for a number of reasons) or to artificially lower the testosterone of the intersex athlete.  Even then, they will have significant advantages over most non-intersex women.

Think of the extreme example of somebody like Hulk Hogan or Arnold Schwarzenegger.  These guys did steroids for years.  If they then go clean for a year or two, they still have a ton of muscle mass that otherwise would have been impossible.

[Donoghus]

Holy cow! What a finish in the Men?s 10,000M final.  What a race.

Final lap was incredible. Don?t know how these guys are able to reach deep down and find the stamina to sprint like they do in the end.

[chicagoceltic]

Holy cow! What a finish in the Men?s 10,000M final.  What a race.

Final lap was incredible. Don?t know how these guys are able to reach deep down and find the stamina to sprint like they do in the end.

I just sent a text to a couple of buddies that the Olympics are so special it?s the only time I would find a lap in a 10k race exciting. Great finish and balky for a Fisher taking the bronze!

[jambr380]

Holy cow! What a finish in the Men?s 10,000M final.  What a race.

Final lap was incredible. Don?t know how these guys are able to reach deep down and find the stamina to sprint like they do in the end.

I just sent a text to a couple of buddies that the Olympics are so special it?s the only time I would find a lap in a 10k race exciting. Great finish and balky for a Fisher taking the bronze!

Just an incredible performance by Fisher. Only .02 seconds from a silver, too. I remember Galen Rupp getting the silver back in 2012 in the 10K, but I don't think it's an event in which the U.S. typically medals. How there could be absolutely no separation over such a long even is really something.

[Donoghus]

Holy cow! What a finish in the Men?s 10,000M final.  What a race.

Final lap was incredible. Don?t know how these guys are able to reach deep down and find the stamina to sprint like they do in the end.

I just sent a text to a couple of buddies that the Olympics are so special it?s the only time I would find a lap in a 10k race exciting. Great finish and balky for a Fisher taking the bronze!

Fisher bouncing back from the trip was impressive. Also, if that race was about 2 meters shorter, he would?ve had the silver.

I know the sprints have the sizzle but the longer distance races can be just as exciting.

[jambr380]

Some controversy with the Algerian boxer. Hate that it?s already become politicized with right wingers purposely framing it as a transgender issue where it appears that it?s one of those things where the athlete is born with female body parts but also testes with high level of testosterone. I honestly not sure what the right approach is but it?s a lot more complex than the framing of a guy fighting girls.

It literally wasn't a controversy at the last Olympics in Tokyo where Khelif lost in the quarterfinals.

This seems like an extreme example, based especially off of the reaction of Carini, which was pretty dramatic in the moment. It certainly didn't do Khelif any favors. Carini recently said this:

?It wasn?t something I intended to do,? Carini said. ?Actually, I want to apologize to her and everyone else. I was angry because my Olympics had gone up in smoke. I don?t have anything against Khelif. Actually, if I were to meet her again I would embrace her.?

"All this controversy makes me sad,? Carini said. ?I?m sorry for my opponent, too. ? If the IOC said she can fight, I respect that decision,"

Honestly, I don't personally have enough information about the story or Khelif's biological make-up to comment one way or the other. Although, people calling Khelif trans and/or a man need to settle down. She is neither and it only leads to more political divisiveness for no reason.