Author Topic: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?  (Read 22066 times)

0 Members and 0 Guests are viewing this topic.

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #30 on: September 28, 2023, 09:27:27 PM »

Offline Kuberski33

  • Tiny Archibald
  • *******
  • Posts: 7389
  • Tommy Points: 570
No, we are not.  As much as I’d love to have him it would take too many pieces from the bench and another big fat contract on the books.  It ain’t happening.

Joe doesn't  play the bench
Key point which factors into any discussion about improving the roster.

Less relevant if you don’t have a bench worth playing. Every Celtics coach of the last, what, 20 years(?) has been critiqued for not playing the bench guys. Most of those bench guys wash out of the league pretty quickly. This isn’t a coincidence.

Further, it doesn’t feel not particularly groundless to assume that coaches have more insight into who deserves playing time than those of us watching at home.
Except a couple of guys who got buried had solid track records for contributing when they got minutes. One got a pretty good contract offer to move to Dallas. I would argue that Joe's misuse led to them not helping as much as in the past - and led to the team blowing several games it should have won.

Williams was moved for three second round picks to a team that does not particularly appear to be shaping up to be a good basketball team. I’m not sure your argument is starting off on the strongest foot.
Forgot it was a trade. However Dallas gave him $54 million which isn't chump change and probably represents his market value after Joe effectively lowered it last season.

Point is Grant is a loss - if you think he's the 21-22 Grant vs the version we saw last season. (I do) This will become evident once they start playing games - unless you think team defense, the ability to take charges, rebounding and playing with some toughness don't matter. That's why I can't see this team being even as good as they were last season - at least based on the team they have currently.

They guys who can do what Grant and Smart do aren't good enough to be reliable rotation players.

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #31 on: September 28, 2023, 09:58:27 PM »

Offline SparzWizard

  • Bill Sharman
  • *******************
  • Posts: 19016
  • Tommy Points: 1120
I don't think that Wyc will exceed the second apron, because he's just more interested in making massive profits

If true, that's a problem.

Fire Wyc and sell the team. We want some win-now attitude from the front office folks.


#FireJoe
#JTJB (Just Trade Jaylen Brown) 2022 - 2025
I am the Master of Panic.

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #32 on: September 28, 2023, 10:39:37 PM »

Offline No Nickname

  • Jayson Tatum
  • Posts: 929
  • Tommy Points: 96
No, we are not.  As much as I’d love to have him it would take too many pieces from the bench and another big fat contract on the books.  It ain’t happening.

Joe doesn't  play the bench
Key point which factors into any discussion about improving the roster.

Less relevant if you don’t have a bench worth playing. Every Celtics coach of the last, what, 20 years(?) has been critiqued for not playing the bench guys. Most of those bench guys wash out of the league pretty quickly. This isn’t a coincidence.

Further, it doesn’t feel not particularly groundless to assume that coaches have more insight into who deserves playing time than those of us watching at home.
Except a couple of guys who got buried had solid track records for contributing when they got minutes. One got a pretty good contract offer to move to Dallas. I would argue that Joe's misuse led to them not helping as much as in the past - and led to the team blowing several games it should have won.

Williams was moved for three second round picks to a team that does not particularly appear to be shaping up to be a good basketball team. I’m not sure your argument is starting off on the strongest foot.
Forgot it was a trade. However Dallas gave him $54 million which isn't chump change and probably represents his market value after Joe effectively lowered it last season.

Point is Grant is a loss - if you think he's the 21-22 Grant vs the version we saw last season. (I do) This will become evident once they start playing games - unless you think team defense, the ability to take charges, rebounding and playing with some toughness don't matter. That's why I can't see this team being even as good as they were last season - at least based on the team they have currently.

They guys who can do what Grant and Smart do aren't good enough to be reliable rotation players.

Everyone keeps saying that Grant couldn’t guard Giannis. Well he may not have the best defensive rating against GA, but Grant wore him down, drew charges, and was another tough SOB who didn’t back down from Giannis’ bully ball tactics.

ESPN kept showing a Giannis highlight today where he absolutely abused Porzingis.

I for one think the loss of Grant will be huge when we face Milwaukee. Other than Horford who can guard him?

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #33 on: September 28, 2023, 11:09:12 PM »

Offline libermaniac

  • Jim Loscutoff
  • **
  • Posts: 2958
  • Tommy Points: 387
No, we are not.  As much as I’d love to have him it would take too many pieces from the bench and another big fat contract on the books.  It ain’t happening.

Joe doesn't  play the bench
Key point which factors into any discussion about improving the roster.

Less relevant if you don’t have a bench worth playing. Every Celtics coach of the last, what, 20 years(?) has been critiqued for not playing the bench guys. Most of those bench guys wash out of the league pretty quickly. This isn’t a coincidence.

Further, it doesn’t feel not particularly groundless to assume that coaches have more insight into who deserves playing time than those of us watching at home.
Except a couple of guys who got buried had solid track records for contributing when they got minutes. One got a pretty good contract offer to move to Dallas. I would argue that Joe's misuse led to them not helping as much as in the past - and led to the team blowing several games it should have won.

Williams was moved for three second round picks to a team that does not particularly appear to be shaping up to be a good basketball team. I’m not sure your argument is starting off on the strongest foot.
Forgot it was a trade. However Dallas gave him $54 million which isn't chump change and probably represents his market value after Joe effectively lowered it last season.

Point is Grant is a loss - if you think he's the 21-22 Grant vs the version we saw last season. (I do) This will become evident once they start playing games - unless you think team defense, the ability to take charges, rebounding and playing with some toughness don't matter. That's why I can't see this team being even as good as they were last season - at least based on the team they have currently.

They guys who can do what Grant and Smart do aren't good enough to be reliable rotation players.

Everyone keeps saying that Grant couldn’t guard Giannis. Well he may not have the best defensive rating against GA, but Grant wore him down, drew charges, and was another tough SOB who didn’t back down from Giannis’ bully ball tactics.

ESPN kept showing a Giannis highlight today where he absolutely abused Porzingis.

I for one think the loss of Grant will be huge when we face Milwaukee. Other than Horford who can guard him?
I totally agree. That’s this teams biggest matchup problem. Brissette will be too small.

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #34 on: September 28, 2023, 11:14:36 PM »

Offline gouki88

  • NCE
  • Red Auerbach
  • *******************************
  • Posts: 31552
  • Tommy Points: 3142
  • 2019 & 2021 CS Historical Draft Champion
No, we are not.  As much as I’d love to have him it would take too many pieces from the bench and another big fat contract on the books.  It ain’t happening.

Joe doesn't  play the bench
Key point which factors into any discussion about improving the roster.

Less relevant if you don’t have a bench worth playing. Every Celtics coach of the last, what, 20 years(?) has been critiqued for not playing the bench guys. Most of those bench guys wash out of the league pretty quickly. This isn’t a coincidence.

Further, it doesn’t feel not particularly groundless to assume that coaches have more insight into who deserves playing time than those of us watching at home.
Except a couple of guys who got buried had solid track records for contributing when they got minutes. One got a pretty good contract offer to move to Dallas. I would argue that Joe's misuse led to them not helping as much as in the past - and led to the team blowing several games it should have won.

Williams was moved for three second round picks to a team that does not particularly appear to be shaping up to be a good basketball team. I’m not sure your argument is starting off on the strongest foot.
Forgot it was a trade. However Dallas gave him $54 million which isn't chump change and probably represents his market value after Joe effectively lowered it last season.

Point is Grant is a loss - if you think he's the 21-22 Grant vs the version we saw last season. (I do) This will become evident once they start playing games - unless you think team defense, the ability to take charges, rebounding and playing with some toughness don't matter. That's why I can't see this team being even as good as they were last season - at least based on the team they have currently.

They guys who can do what Grant and Smart do aren't good enough to be reliable rotation players.

Everyone keeps saying that Grant couldn’t guard Giannis. Well he may not have the best defensive rating against GA, but Grant wore him down, drew charges, and was another tough SOB who didn’t back down from Giannis’ bully ball tactics.

ESPN kept showing a Giannis highlight today where he absolutely abused Porzingis.

I for one think the loss of Grant will be huge when we face Milwaukee. Other than Horford who can guard him?
I totally agree. That’s this teams biggest matchup problem. Brissette will be too small.
I like the idea of Horford being able to focus entirely on Giannis, without having to worry about defending Lopez. Williams 3 is too small for Lopez, but Porzingis is theoretically a really solid matchup for Lopez. Allow Tatum & Brown to focus on Middleton, and White to go at Lillard.
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #35 on: September 28, 2023, 11:46:50 PM »

Offline CelticSooner

  • Ed Macauley
  • ***********
  • Posts: 11884
  • Tommy Points: 902
  • GOT IT!!!
Hard pass. He’s not worth gutting our team.

Not sure we would have to get our team but it would most likely cost us Horford - if the deal is Brogdon, Pritchard, Horford, a pick (we have the Warriors) and a pickup swap, I probably do it

Go back and watch Jimmy Butler cook him in the playoffs last season. Jrue looks like he's lost a step and is no longer that defense stalworth

Go back and watch Brogdon any time last season. If Jrue lost a step Brogdon is playing in cement lol

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #36 on: September 28, 2023, 11:54:09 PM »

Offline hwangjini_1

  • Dennis Johnson
  • ******************
  • Posts: 18226
  • Tommy Points: 2749
  • bammokja
As C21 and I have both noted separately, it's possible to make salaries work with Brogdon, a Griffin S&T, Walsh and Pritchard.  That's not gutting our team, particularly if we signed a free agent PG to replace Pritchard (like Payne).

I don't think that Wyc will exceed the second apron, because he's just more interested in making massive profits.  But, we could make a competitive package without gutting our rotation or our depth.
i ran this idea of a sign and trade witih griffin, signing him for over the vet miin, over at SoSH. this is what jaerae, a salary wiz at SoSH, had to say about that.

They’d need to cut players though. We only have $2 million in cushion against the second apron. If we cross, we cannot aggregate. So any trade cannot involve the Celtics taking on more than $2 million in additional salary. Kornet, Svi, or Banton could be cut at minimal cost to create room. Svi and Banton each have $200k guarantees. I believe the Celtics could make the money work by cutting both of Svi or Banton and trading Kornet along with Pritchard, Hauser, and Walsh. I don’t think there is any other way to make it work after looking at this more closely.

I don’t think the above is practical. I don’t think aggregating hard caps us, so I think we could subsequently replace some of the lost depth via FA signings (like replacing Pritchard with Payne), but the roster would be incredibly shallow. We’d have Brissett and Stevens as the 8/9 options and then nothing except FA scraps, almost no ability to trade in season, and a huge tax fit to fill out the roster. It is far more likely Boston is offering Horford or Timelord. They‘d still need to add Kornet or Pritchard. The latter is more likely as we could use the cap space freed up to guarantee Lamar Stevens or acquire someone like Payne without crossing the second apron. That would leave us with reasonable depth and a meaningful upgrade on core talent. We’d have six closing lineup capable players still, so could reasonably weather 1 injury to anyone except Tatum and still have a formidable roster. It makes a lot more sense than emptying the roster for a bigger upgrade to the front 7 but literally no depth.
I believe Gandhi is the only person who knew about real democracy — not democracy as the right to go and buy what you want, but democracy as the responsibility to be accountable to everyone around you. Democracy begins with freedom from hunger, freedom from unemployment, freedom from fear, and freedom from hatred.
- Vandana Shiva

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2023, 01:13:10 AM »

Online johnnygreen

  • Bailey Howell
  • **
  • Posts: 2439
  • Tommy Points: 309
I don't understand how the Celtics can be in on the Jru Holiday market and match salary. The team has 3 big men in Porzingis, Horford, and Williams. Al is 37, and the other two are injury prone. You simply can't afford to include one of those guys in a Holiday deal, and hope to add another meaningful big man. If that mystery big man free agent was any good, he would have been signed already. Ideally, Al comes off the bench all season, and has enough gas in the tank come playoff time. He was still effective against Embiid and Giannis last season. Also, if either Porzingis or Williams get hurt, Al is a more than capable of filling those minutes.

Do I like Holiday, yes. But not at the expense of removing a major piece from the frontcourt. I simply don't believe the difference between Holiday and White/Brogdon is that great.

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2023, 06:10:32 AM »

Offline Kernewek

  • Antoine Walker
  • ****
  • Posts: 4721
  • Tommy Points: 299
  • International Superstar
No, we are not.  As much as I’d love to have him it would take too many pieces from the bench and another big fat contract on the books.  It ain’t happening.

Joe doesn't  play the bench
Key point which factors into any discussion about improving the roster.

Less relevant if you don’t have a bench worth playing. Every Celtics coach of the last, what, 20 years(?) has been critiqued for not playing the bench guys. Most of those bench guys wash out of the league pretty quickly. This isn’t a coincidence.

Further, it doesn’t feel not particularly groundless to assume that coaches have more insight into who deserves playing time than those of us watching at home.
Except a couple of guys who got buried had solid track records for contributing when they got minutes. One got a pretty good contract offer to move to Dallas. I would argue that Joe's misuse led to them not helping as much as in the past - and led to the team blowing several games it should have won.

Williams was moved for three second round picks to a team that does not particularly appear to be shaping up to be a good basketball team. I’m not sure your argument is starting off on the strongest foot.
Forgot it was a trade. However Dallas gave him $54 million which isn't chump change and probably represents his market value after Joe effectively lowered it last season.

Point is Grant is a loss - if you think he's the 21-22 Grant vs the version we saw last season. (I do) This will become evident once they start playing games - unless you think team defense, the ability to take charges, rebounding and playing with some toughness don't matter. That's why I can't see this team being even as good as they were last season - at least based on the team they have currently.

They guys who can do what Grant and Smart do aren't good enough to be reliable rotation players.
To be clear I think Smart is a much bigger loss than Grant - for my money (as scant as it seems to be these days) it'll probably have a similar impact to letting TA walk - but in a perfect world, where we end up with Smart remaining on the team instead of Brogdon, I think we're in the best possible position.

It's hard for me to see Dallas as anything other than desperate for warm bodies after the Kyrie trade scuppered their playoff ambitions. And I simply don't see Grant as a guy who moves the needle for either team, especially since any minutes he might have received would be better served going to Horford, Porzingis, or Williams.

When it comes to coaches playing or not playing players, I learned my lesson with Avery Bradley: for those first two seasons I (and an awful lot of posters, fans, and other members of the commentariat) thought he sucked, that he did not deserve minutes on a team that was (nominally) competing for a championship, that he was a waste of time and space when he was on the floor, and why was he getting so many minutes on a serious team?

As it turns out, we were completely wrong. Do some guys get buried on the bench unnecessarily, or by bad coaches? Of course. There's definitely the human factor to consider. But I think it's much more common that the flashes of potential we see in games aren't borne out in the practices, scrimmages, and tape-evaluation that we're not privy to as fans.
"...unceasingly we are bombarded with pseudo-realities manufactured by very sophisticated people using very sophisticated electronic mechanisms. I do not distrust their motives; I distrust their power. They have a lot of it."

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2023, 06:50:43 AM »

Offline cman88

  • Rajon Rondo
  • *****
  • Posts: 5530
  • Tommy Points: 397
Is Holiday that good that he's worth brogdon and someone like Rob Williams?

No he's not. Don't get all the hype fans want to erode our depth for him

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #40 on: September 29, 2023, 07:04:48 AM »

Offline ChillyWilly

  • Bill Walton
  • *
  • Posts: 1426
  • Tommy Points: 623
Is Holiday that good that he's worth brogdon and someone like Rob Williams?

No he's not. Don't get all the hype fans want to erode our depth for him

He's not and I think this board sometimes fall into love with older versions of a player. Yes id love for 30 year old Jrue on this team but anyone who watched Jrue last season and half knows he's not that guy anymore. I think if he did land here at that cost we would be greatly disappointed with the version of Jrue we got.
ok fine

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #41 on: September 29, 2023, 07:12:59 AM »

Online Birdman

  • Danny Ainge
  • **********
  • Posts: 10376
  • Tommy Points: 466
Trade Brogdon, Pritchard, couple more & picks but get a 3rd team involved so we can keep Al & TimeLord
C/PF-Horford, Baynes, Noel, Theis, Morris,
SF/SG- Tatum, Brown, Hayward, Smart, Semi, Clark
PG- Irving, Rozier, Larkin

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #42 on: September 29, 2023, 07:43:55 AM »

Offline Roy H.

  • Forums Manager
  • James Naismith
  • *********************************
  • Posts: 63469
  • Tommy Points: -25459
  • Bo Knows: Joe Don't Know Diddley
Is Holiday that good that he's worth brogdon and someone like Rob Williams?

No he's not. Don't get all the hype fans want to erode our depth for him

He's not and I think this board sometimes fall into love with older versions of a player. Yes id love for 30 year old Jrue on this team but anyone who watched Jrue last season and half knows he's not that guy anymore. I think if he did land here at that cost we would be greatly disappointed with the version of Jrue we got.

Jrue was quite good last year.  He's a better overall player than Brogdon, and likely will be the next couple of seasons.

I wouldn't give up Brogdon and Horford/Timelord.  I would give up Brogdon + Pritchard + Walsh + Griffin + picks + cash.

For perspective, Jrue averaged 19.3 points / 7.4 assists / 5.1 rebounds / .556 eFG% last season, while being named an All-Star and All-Defense first team. 


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER... AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #43 on: September 29, 2023, 08:13:11 AM »

Offline celticinorlando

  • Walter Brown
  • ********************************
  • Posts: 32896
  • Tommy Points: 843
  • Larry Bird for President
I think Holiday would make the starting 5 better. White would make the bench better than the set up they have now with White and Brogdon. So yes...it would make Boston a bit better.

But having to give up Rob maybe with Brogdon would be too much.

Re: Are we in the Jrue Holiday market?
« Reply #44 on: September 29, 2023, 09:27:55 AM »

Online Vermont Green

  • K.C. Jones
  • *************
  • Posts: 13966
  • Tommy Points: 1037
Is Holiday that good that he's worth brogdon and someone like Rob Williams?

No he's not. Don't get all the hype fans want to erode our depth for him

He's not and I think this board sometimes fall into love with older versions of a player. Yes id love for 30 year old Jrue on this team but anyone who watched Jrue last season and half knows he's not that guy anymore. I think if he did land here at that cost we would be greatly disappointed with the version of Jrue we got.

Jrue was quite good last year.  He's a better overall player than Brogdon, and likely will be the next couple of seasons.

I wouldn't give up Brogdon and Horford/Timelord.  I would give up Brogdon + Pritchard + Walsh + Griffin + picks + cash.

For perspective, Jrue averaged 19.3 points / 7.4 assists / 5.1 rebounds / .556 eFG% last season, while being named an All-Star and All-Defense first team.

This is all true. Holiday is a better player than Brogdon and would start over White. But we can’t trade for him with just Brogdon.  We have to send out more salary.  It doesn’t matter how many teams are involved. And I don’t think Griffin helps as he isn’t on the team.

Whether it is Brogdon and Williams or something more like Roy’s version I don’t feel the upgrade is worth the cost. I am not adamantly opposed to the trade, we are a contender in either case, I just don’t see the need. I would rather see what this team can do.

Edit:  I see now the idea is to sign and trade Griffin.