Author Topic: Patriots 2023 Season  (Read 296693 times)

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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #180 on: September 03, 2023, 07:26:36 PM »

Offline ozgod

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As expected, Zappe is back with the Pats after clearing waivers, with the practice squad. Cunningham is expected to follow. The pecking order has been well and truly set though, with Mac on top and no more media speculation of a quarterback contest or a platoon system.
If your backup QB is on the practice squad, what happens if Mac gets knocked out of a game?

I doubt Zappe will be the backup. They will get another guy to be the backup. A clear No2.

Does Matt Corral count as a true #2?  It's an interesting get for sure by the Pats, seeing as he was pretty darn good in college.  The better connection is that Corral excelled when Lane Kiffin showed up and oh by the way, Kiffin was OC at Alabama prior.

I suppose what I meant was a No.2 whose position is clear in the hierarchy as opposed to someone who would compete for the No.1 spot. I was thinking they would get an older guy, like Case Keenum is for CJ Stroud, or Andy Dalton for Bryce Young…though Mac is hardly a rookie, this is his third year so maybe they felt he didn’t need a training wheels quarterback looking over his shoulder.

But the main point is that they’ve anointed Mac the guy to start the season at least, clear the way for him, give him a new OC and see how he goes without having to look over his shoulder. Though it would have been nice to give him a new O line as well, because he’s going to be looking over his shoulder on the field at least  :angel:
Any odd typos are because I suck at typing on an iPhone :D


Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #181 on: September 03, 2023, 09:37:21 PM »

Offline Phantom255x

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I'm watching some college football today and I got to say... some of these teams have much better skill position players and overall offenses than even the Patriots  :laugh:

Not that you're wrong, but I also noticed that a lot of these early-season games are nonconference matchups between teams miles apart in talent, so a lot of the games end up being extreme blowouts—there were at least three games yesterday where the winner scored in the 70s and the loser scored in the single digits, LOL.

What? That 81-7 Oregon game didn't excite you?  :laugh:

I think I mean more just the talent on offense for a lot of teams. You're right about the talent disparity between teams, but I also just look at some of the elite NCAAF teams with their talent and wonder... like is it egregious to think Mac Jones actually had better weapons at Alabama than he has with New England so far? I really don't think so. Even other former Bama QBs like Tua and Hurts have been surrounded by more talent at the NFL level. Not Mac.

I'm hopeful with Bill O'Brien, the offense will at least look a lot more functional and disciplined than last year with those clowns Patricia/Judge. But if the O-Line is still in shambles and our pass catchers don't take a step, then will much even change? Just look around the AFC, teams are loaded with talent and weapons all around even besides just the QBs. I know Burrow, Mahomes and Allen are legit QBs but also look at the talent around them. I'm sure that helps too. Mac doesn't even have an ounce of that

Belichick seems to love these "diamonds in the rough" and taking "reaches" with certain draft picks instead of picking the sure thing. Like instead of an SEC receiver, he'll take some guy from Bunker Hill Community College with a 2nd round pick.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2023, 09:45:49 PM by Phantom255x »
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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #182 on: September 03, 2023, 10:28:28 PM »

Offline Moranis

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I'm watching some college football today and I got to say... some of these teams have much better skill position players and overall offenses than even the Patriots  :laugh:

Not that you're wrong, but I also noticed that a lot of these early-season games are nonconference matchups between teams miles apart in talent, so a lot of the games end up being extreme blowouts—there were at least three games yesterday where the winner scored in the 70s and the loser scored in the single digits, LOL.

What? That 81-7 Oregon game didn't excite you?  :laugh:

I think I mean more just the talent on offense for a lot of teams. You're right about the talent disparity between teams, but I also just look at some of the elite NCAAF teams with their talent and wonder... like is it egregious to think Mac Jones actually had better weapons at Alabama than he has with New England so far? I really don't think so. Even other former Bama QBs like Tua and Hurts have been surrounded by more talent at the NFL level. Not Mac.

I'm hopeful with Bill O'Brien, the offense will at least look a lot more functional and disciplined than last year with those clowns Patricia/Judge. But if the O-Line is still in shambles and our pass catchers don't take a step, then will much even change? Just look around the AFC, teams are loaded with talent and weapons all around even besides just the QBs. I know Burrow, Mahomes and Allen are legit QBs but also look at the talent around them. I'm sure that helps too. Mac doesn't even have an ounce of that

Belichick seems to love these "diamonds in the rough" and taking "reaches" with certain draft picks instead of picking the sure thing. Like instead of an SEC receiver, he'll take some guy from Bunker Hill Community College with a 2nd round pick.
Um, no, he did.  I mean his WR's were DeVonta Smith, Jaylen Waddle, and John Metchie.  The RB's were Najee Harris and Brian Robinson.  And the OL was awesome.  I mean the talent at Bama is the reason someone with Mac's stats was available in the mid-1st round and wasn't a unanimous #1 pick.  Scouts questioned how much the success was the talent around him verse him.
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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #183 on: September 04, 2023, 11:13:10 AM »

Offline Goldstar88

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I'm watching some college football today and I got to say... some of these teams have much better skill position players and overall offenses than even the Patriots  :laugh:

Not that you're wrong, but I also noticed that a lot of these early-season games are nonconference matchups between teams miles apart in talent, so a lot of the games end up being extreme blowouts—there were at least three games yesterday where the winner scored in the 70s and the loser scored in the single digits, LOL.

What? That 81-7 Oregon game didn't excite you?  :laugh:

I think I mean more just the talent on offense for a lot of teams. You're right about the talent disparity between teams, but I also just look at some of the elite NCAAF teams with their talent and wonder... like is it egregious to think Mac Jones actually had better weapons at Alabama than he has with New England so far? I really don't think so. Even other former Bama QBs like Tua and Hurts have been surrounded by more talent at the NFL level. Not Mac.

I'm hopeful with Bill O'Brien, the offense will at least look a lot more functional and disciplined than last year with those clowns Patricia/Judge. But if the O-Line is still in shambles and our pass catchers don't take a step, then will much even change? Just look around the AFC, teams are loaded with talent and weapons all around even besides just the QBs. I know Burrow, Mahomes and Allen are legit QBs but also look at the talent around them. I'm sure that helps too. Mac doesn't even have an ounce of that

Belichick seems to love these "diamonds in the rough" and taking "reaches" with certain draft picks instead of picking the sure thing. Like instead of an SEC receiver, he'll take some guy from Bunker Hill Community College with a 2nd round pick.
Um, no, he did.  I mean his WR's were DeVonta Smith, Jaylen Waddle, and John Metchie.  The RB's were Najee Harris and Brian Robinson.  And the OL was awesome.  I mean the talent at Bama is the reason someone with Mac's stats was available in the mid-1st round and wasn't a unanimous #1 pick.  Scouts questioned how much the success was the talent around him verse him.

So with a good offensive line and a true #1 WR, Mac should have success in the league. Pats already have a very good RB in Stevenson and the defense should be top 5 this season. I mean, when you have QB’s like Garopollo and Goff making it to SB’s and Stafford recently winning one, that shows that you don’t need a top 5 QB to win it all. Question is, will Bill and Bob give Mac what he needs to be successful. They’ve pretty much failed him since his rookie year.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2023, 12:51:45 PM by Goldstar88 »
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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #184 on: September 04, 2023, 06:44:13 PM »

Online Neurotic Guy

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I'm watching some college football today and I got to say... some of these teams have much better skill position players and overall offenses than even the Patriots  :laugh:

Not that you're wrong, but I also noticed that a lot of these early-season games are nonconference matchups between teams miles apart in talent, so a lot of the games end up being extreme blowouts—there were at least three games yesterday where the winner scored in the 70s and the loser scored in the single digits, LOL.

What? That 81-7 Oregon game didn't excite you?  :laugh:

I think I mean more just the talent on offense for a lot of teams. You're right about the talent disparity between teams, but I also just look at some of the elite NCAAF teams with their talent and wonder... like is it egregious to think Mac Jones actually had better weapons at Alabama than he has with New England so far? I really don't think so. Even other former Bama QBs like Tua and Hurts have been surrounded by more talent at the NFL level. Not Mac.

I'm hopeful with Bill O'Brien, the offense will at least look a lot more functional and disciplined than last year with those clowns Patricia/Judge. But if the O-Line is still in shambles and our pass catchers don't take a step, then will much even change? Just look around the AFC, teams are loaded with talent and weapons all around even besides just the QBs. I know Burrow, Mahomes and Allen are legit QBs but also look at the talent around them. I'm sure that helps too. Mac doesn't even have an ounce of that

Belichick seems to love these "diamonds in the rough" and taking "reaches" with certain draft picks instead of picking the sure thing. Like instead of an SEC receiver, he'll take some guy from Bunker Hill Community College with a 2nd round pick.
Um, no, he did.  I mean his WR's were DeVonta Smith, Jaylen Waddle, and John Metchie.  The RB's were Najee Harris and Brian Robinson.  And the OL was awesome.  I mean the talent at Bama is the reason someone with Mac's stats was available in the mid-1st round and wasn't a unanimous #1 pick.  Scouts questioned how much the success was the talent around him verse him.

So with a good offensive line and a true #1 WR, Mac should have success in the league. Pats already have a very good RB in Stevenson and the defense should be top 5 this season. I mean, when you have QB’s like Garopollo and Goff making it to SB’s and Stafford recently winning one, that shows that you don’t need a top 5 QB to win it all. Question is, will Bill and Bob give Mac what he needs to be successful. They’ve pretty much failed him since his rookie year.

Brady was not a top 5 QB in 2001. His top receivers were Troy Brown and David Patten.  And no Gronk.   Idk why it matters though. Mac with time to throw can develop into a good NFL qb. With a constantly collapsing line he’ll struggle.  I’m looking forward to something real to gauge where the pats are.  I hope they show well v. Philly.

Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #185 on: September 04, 2023, 09:05:57 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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As expected, Zappe is back with the Pats after clearing waivers, with the practice squad. Cunningham is expected to follow. The pecking order has been well and truly set though, with Mac on top and no more media speculation of a quarterback contest or a platoon system.
Doesn't this create more controversy in some ways.  I mean they are once again telling the world thst they don't believe in Mac Jones ability because if you feel like you need to waive the backup to atop the starter from feeling pressure, what does that say about the starter?

Apparently Bill believes in Mac after all..

"Mac's had a good offseason and has had a really good camp," Belichick said in a video conference Monday morning. "He understands the offense -- how it works, how to get his teammates involved, how to help them be productive. So he's had a really good stretch here; it's been consistent all the way through."

Belichick also told sports radio WEEI that Jones is in "excellent physical condition," has "made a lot of improvement in reads, decision-making and timing," and that he's "looking forward to the season with Mac."
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #186 on: September 04, 2023, 09:32:47 PM »

Offline Moranis

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As expected, Zappe is back with the Pats after clearing waivers, with the practice squad. Cunningham is expected to follow. The pecking order has been well and truly set though, with Mac on top and no more media speculation of a quarterback contest or a platoon system.
Doesn't this create more controversy in some ways.  I mean they are once again telling the world thst they don't believe in Mac Jones ability because if you feel like you need to waive the backup to atop the starter from feeling pressure, what does that say about the starter?

Apparently Bill believes in Mac after all..

"Mac's had a good offseason and has had a really good camp," Belichick said in a video conference Monday morning. "He understands the offense -- how it works, how to get his teammates involved, how to help them be productive. So he's had a really good stretch here; it's been consistent all the way through."

Belichick also told sports radio WEEI that Jones is in "excellent physical condition," has "made a lot of improvement in reads, decision-making and timing," and that he's "looking forward to the season with Mac."

again I was commenting on the article regarding waiving Zappe to take pressure off of Mac and to create a clear hierarchy.  It doesn't appear that is the case, it appears they waived Zappe because he isn't any good and they knew they'd find someone better in the waiver wire. 
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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #187 on: September 05, 2023, 08:00:11 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Brady was not a top 5 QB in 2001. His top receivers were Troy Brown and David Patten.  And no Gronk.   Idk why it matters though. Mac with time to throw can develop into a good NFL qb. With a constantly collapsing line he’ll struggle.  I’m looking forward to something real to gauge where the pats are.  I hope they show well v. Philly.

This is true.  And it was the same for Brady.  There were stretches where the OL was bad with Brady and Brady was not good and the team was not good.  They were always able to figure out the OL as the season went on and Brady got back to being Brady and the team got back to wining.

There is no doubt that Brady was very good at reading the pass rush and making little pocket adjustments to buy time or find a lane to throw.  That served him well to a point.  But there is also a point where the OL is so bad it doesn't matter who the QB is.  I think that is where it was at last season.

Hopefully the OL will improve because if it doesn't, not much else matters.  Mac Jones does also need to improve on reading the rush and making pocket adjustments.  I think the issue was mostly just bad OL last season but there were times when I think Mac Jones could have done better in the pocket too.  Football is a very interconnected sport.  There is only so much 1 player can do on his own.

Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #188 on: September 05, 2023, 09:01:27 AM »

Offline Moranis

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When was Brady not good and when were the Patriots not good with Brady?  I mean I guess they had that 9-7 year sandwiched between the first and second Super Bowl.  Obviously not a great year, but I'm not sure I'd call that not good either.  And that year Brady led the league in TD passes and he took fewer sacks than either SB winning team on either side of that season
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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #189 on: September 05, 2023, 09:10:17 AM »

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Brady was not a top 5 QB in 2001. His top receivers were Troy Brown and David Patten.  And no Gronk.   Idk why it matters though. Mac with time to throw can develop into a good NFL qb. With a constantly collapsing line he’ll struggle.  I’m looking forward to something real to gauge where the pats are.  I hope they show well v. Philly.

This is true.  And it was the same for Brady.  There were stretches where the OL was bad with Brady and Brady was not good and the team was not good.  They were always able to figure out the OL as the season went on and Brady got back to being Brady and the team got back to wining.

There is no doubt that Brady was very good at reading the pass rush and making little pocket adjustments to buy time or find a lane to throw.  That served him well to a point.  But there is also a point where the OL is so bad it doesn't matter who the QB is. I think that is where it was at last season.

Hopefully the OL will improve because if it doesn't, not much else matters.  Mac Jones does also need to improve on reading the rush and making pocket adjustments.  I think the issue was mostly just bad OL last season but there were times when I think Mac Jones could have done better in the pocket too.  Football is a very interconnected sport.  There is only so much 1 player can do on his own.

Or there is a time when the opposing pass rush is just too good.  Giants sadly got the best of Brady twice in the SB. D-line was a huge factor. Even Brady was impacted when he had no time to breathe.

Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #190 on: September 05, 2023, 10:08:08 AM »

Offline Vermont Green

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When was Brady not good and when were the Patriots not good with Brady?  I mean I guess they had that 9-7 year sandwiched between the first and second Super Bowl.  Obviously not a great year, but I'm not sure I'd call that not good either.  And that year Brady led the league in TD passes and he took fewer sacks than either SB winning team on either side of that season

The season I remember is 2014-15.  They lost to KC in the 4th game, I think on a Monday night, 41-14 and the OL was horrible, had been all season.  I think they ended up bringing back Dante Scarnecchia and finally got the OL stabilized and ended up winning the Super bowl.  They were horrible (2-2 at the time) until the OL got stabilized.

As I said, historically, even if they had a stretch of bad OL play, they were always able to stabilize it through the course of the season. Last season they never stabilized it, the OL was bad all season.  I don't think even a second year Tom Brady would have made any difference with that OL.

« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 10:17:09 AM by Vermont Green »

Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #191 on: September 05, 2023, 11:37:50 AM »

Offline Moranis

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When was Brady not good and when were the Patriots not good with Brady?  I mean I guess they had that 9-7 year sandwiched between the first and second Super Bowl.  Obviously not a great year, but I'm not sure I'd call that not good either.  And that year Brady led the league in TD passes and he took fewer sacks than either SB winning team on either side of that season

The season I remember is 2014-15.  They lost to KC in the 4th game, I think on a Monday night, 41-14 and the OL was horrible, had been all season.  I think they ended up bringing back Dante Scarnecchia and finally got the OL stabilized and ended up winning the Super bowl.  They were horrible (2-2 at the time) until the OL got stabilized.

As I said, historically, even if they had a stretch of bad OL play, they were always able to stabilize it through the course of the season. Last season they never stabilized it, the OL was bad all season.  I don't think even a second year Tom Brady would have made any difference with that OL.
of course he would have.  Even 2nd year Brady was accurate and money when the game was on the line.  I understand no one knew how good Brady would be back then, but Brady delivered time and time again, even early on.  The makings for what he'd become were there.  Mac just hasn't shown that special quality.  He obviously can and should be better than he was last year, but the Patriots aren't going to get elite QB play from Mac, probably ever.  When guys like Trent Dilfer win SB's and Jimmy G makes 2 of them, Mac can as well, but those seasons are almost in spite of the QB, not because of the QB.  The Patriots need the defense to be so good it doesn't matter and I just don't see it.  They are good, but not all time good, which is what they have to be with middling play from the QB, a bad OL, a bottom 5 receiving group, and good but unspectacular RB's. 

And I saw the report over the weekend that JuJu's knee is a ticking time bomb, which if true is obviously not a good sign.  If ge goes down, they have without question the worst receiving group in the league (they arguablyndo with him).
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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #192 on: September 05, 2023, 12:19:00 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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When was Brady not good and when were the Patriots not good with Brady?  I mean I guess they had that 9-7 year sandwiched between the first and second Super Bowl.  Obviously not a great year, but I'm not sure I'd call that not good either.  And that year Brady led the league in TD passes and he took fewer sacks than either SB winning team on either side of that season

The season I remember is 2014-15.  They lost to KC in the 4th game, I think on a Monday night, 41-14 and the OL was horrible, had been all season.  I think they ended up bringing back Dante Scarnecchia and finally got the OL stabilized and ended up winning the Super bowl.  They were horrible (2-2 at the time) until the OL got stabilized.

As I said, historically, even if they had a stretch of bad OL play, they were always able to stabilize it through the course of the season. Last season they never stabilized it, the OL was bad all season.  I don't think even a second year Tom Brady would have made any difference with that OL.
of course he would have.  Even 2nd year Brady was accurate and money when the game was on the line.  I understand no one knew how good Brady would be back then, but Brady delivered time and time again, even early on.  The makings for what he'd become were there.  Mac just hasn't shown that special quality.  He obviously can and should be better than he was last year, but the Patriots aren't going to get elite QB play from Mac, probably ever.  When guys like Trent Dilfer win SB's and Jimmy G makes 2 of them, Mac can as well, but those seasons are almost in spite of the QB, not because of the QB.  The Patriots need the defense to be so good it doesn't matter and I just don't see it.  They are good, but not all time good, which is what they have to be with middling play from the QB, a bad OL, a bottom 5 receiving group, and good but unspectacular RB's. 

And I saw the report over the weekend that JuJu's knee is a ticking time bomb, which if true is obviously not a good sign.  If ge goes down, they have without question the worst receiving group in the league (they arguablyndo with him).

No one is arguing that Mac Jones is or will be as good as Brady.  But I think you said it exactly, Mac Jones can be and may already be as good as Garoppolo.  I would say that Mac Jones' first couple of seasons has been better than Garoppolo's first couple of seasons.  Garoppolo would not have lasted 2 games behind last season's OL.  And even Brady maybe gets one or two more wins, maybe.

We will see how the season goes but I believe that if the OL can hold up, do what they are supposed to do, that Mac and the receivers are more than good enough to get the Patriots to the playoffs.  They only need to be say 2 wins better than last season.

Juju's knee is a concern.  I doubt it "explodes" though.  If he does "go down", no doubt that hurts the WR depth, but I don't think necessarily derails the entire season.  I think of all the steps needed to complete a pass, protection, receiver get open, good throw, receiver catch the ball, receiver runs after catch, the getting open part is the easiest.  Better receivers get open a little more often, catch the ball more often, and get more yards after catch, but I think the Patriots receivers (and backs and TEs) will get open just fine, we'll see if the protection is there and if Mac can get the ball where it needs to be.  The receivers are my least concern.

Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #193 on: September 05, 2023, 02:23:00 PM »

Offline Goldstar88

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When was Brady not good and when were the Patriots not good with Brady?  I mean I guess they had that 9-7 year sandwiched between the first and second Super Bowl.  Obviously not a great year, but I'm not sure I'd call that not good either.  And that year Brady led the league in TD passes and he took fewer sacks than either SB winning team on either side of that season

The season I remember is 2014-15.  They lost to KC in the 4th game, I think on a Monday night, 41-14 and the OL was horrible, had been all season.  I think they ended up bringing back Dante Scarnecchia and finally got the OL stabilized and ended up winning the Super bowl.  They were horrible (2-2 at the time) until the OL got stabilized.

As I said, historically, even if they had a stretch of bad OL play, they were always able to stabilize it through the course of the season. Last season they never stabilized it, the OL was bad all season.  I don't think even a second year Tom Brady would have made any difference with that OL.
of course he would have.  Even 2nd year Brady was accurate and money when the game was on the line.  I understand no one knew how good Brady would be back then, but Brady delivered time and time again, even early on.  The makings for what he'd become were there.  Mac just hasn't shown that special quality.  He obviously can and should be better than he was last year, but the Patriots aren't going to get elite QB play from Mac, probably ever.  When guys like Trent Dilfer win SB's and Jimmy G makes 2 of them, Mac can as well, but those seasons are almost in spite of the QB, not because of the QB.  The Patriots need the defense to be so good it doesn't matter and I just don't see it.  They are good, but not all time good, which is what they have to be with middling play from the QB, a bad OL, a bottom 5 receiving group, and good but unspectacular RB's. 

And I saw the report over the weekend that JuJu's knee is a ticking time bomb, which if true is obviously not a good sign.  If ge goes down, they have without question the worst receiving group in the league (they arguablyndo with him).

Brady would not have solved the issues the Pats had with the O-line last year. They were atrocious all season and Mac suffered several injuries because of it. I don’t care who the QB is, they are not going to be effective when the pocket is collapsing on every play.
« Last Edit: September 05, 2023, 05:25:51 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
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Re: Patriots 2023 Season
« Reply #194 on: September 05, 2023, 06:36:24 PM »

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