Author Topic: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Results in OP!  (Read 136795 times)

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Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #840 on: August 09, 2023, 07:21:22 PM »

Offline theswitch

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Phew! I'm stoked. Going back to the third round -- and again in the fourth round -- I was planning on filling out the power forward position and couldn't decide between the traditional guys (Blake, LMA, JO). So I went with Bobby and Marques because I thought they were unique. I almost picked JO as early as round three! And he was one of three considered in round four. And then I was just terrified as I saw names come off the board that I was stuck.

O'Neal is almost certainly going to start for us given the competitive set here, but that's perhaps matchup dependent. He's going to be stuck down low with Gasol playing in the high post so he's going to be unable to take those long 2s that probably dropped him to the 7th round. Jermaine was 3rd in MVP voting, the best player on a Conference Finals team that lost to the eventual champions in six games, and a hyper-athletic, hyper-long defender who is going to be a great help guy. Gasol isn't really Mr. Swat-a-shot despite being DPOY. JO is. We remember Jermaine from Boston -- he was a hyper athletic, mobile defender early on.

That moves Bobby Jones to the bench and adds to our starting lineup defensive length and the frontcourt scoring we were sorely missing.

Fat has been my target for a while too. A defensive triple-double machine. It creates a three-man guard rotation with Penny and Westphal where Fat is fat and happy to be the defensive specialist, take the harder assignment, grab rebounds, keep the passing alive. Fat works with Penny, Penny works with Westphal, Fat works with Westphal. So I like that versatility. It felt like I needed some defense in the backcourt. Fat was also a 40% shooter on small volume (1+ attempts, though) so he can check that box too.

So that takes me a few potential line-up:

Starting (for most of the league, probably) Penny - Westphal - Marques - Jermaine - M. Gasol
And then some combos for the frontcourt:
1 -- Marques - Bobby Jones - Jermaine
2 -- Marques - Bobby Jones - M. Gasol
3 -- Marques - Jermaine - M. Gasol (the starting one probably)

For the backcourt, it's interplay with Penny, Westphal, Fat Lever.

A lot of great picks these rounds, but personally very happy.
2023 Historical Draft: Toronto Raptors

Point Guard: Anfernee Hardaway, Fat Lever, Terrell Brandon
Shooting Guard: Paul Westphal, Paul Pressey
Small Forward: Marques Johnson, Danny Granger
Power Forward: Jermaine O'Neal, Bobby Jones, Kiki Vandeweghe
Center: Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #841 on: August 09, 2023, 07:37:25 PM »

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I love Marc Gasol for JO. A big man who can pull the opposing the center out of paint and provide floor spacing for JO to post up and beat up smaller PFs.

JO is a bit of a sketchy shooter. I felt he need a center who could shoot next to him.

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #842 on: August 09, 2023, 07:46:57 PM »

Offline gouki88

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I’m personally quite excited to have nabbed Michael Jordan’s favourite player in the 7th round for scoring off the bench  ;D
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #843 on: August 09, 2023, 08:42:22 PM »

Offline theswitch

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Is Sheed the 3rd best PF in the league?

This is considering Pau at center and Amare at PF for that Nets team. I have C Webb #1 Kemp #2 Sheed #3. Tempted by LMA and Blake to round out the top 5.

Curious where people slot JO in this conversation with these five, Amare, Bosh. Guys like Nance are harder to directly place because these other guys all played in the same general generation, plus or minus a few years.

I had JO close to Blake and LMA, clustered together. I suppose others had them higher because they were picked first. JO is the best defender of the group and the most imposing. He’s a more athletic finisher than LMA but clearly less skilled and more of a black hole. Similar to Blake in terms of actual shooting during their peak. So maybe worse on offense, better on defense. More of a center than those two.

He did go farther as the best player on a team, but who knows how others would’ve done. It’s an interesting cluster of guys - JO, Bosh, Blake, Amare, LMA.
2023 Historical Draft: Toronto Raptors

Point Guard: Anfernee Hardaway, Fat Lever, Terrell Brandon
Shooting Guard: Paul Westphal, Paul Pressey
Small Forward: Marques Johnson, Danny Granger
Power Forward: Jermaine O'Neal, Bobby Jones, Kiki Vandeweghe
Center: Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #844 on: August 09, 2023, 09:54:32 PM »

Offline smokeablount

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Is Sheed the 3rd best PF in the league?

This is considering Pau at center and Amare at PF for that Nets team. I have C Webb #1 Kemp #2 Sheed #3. Tempted by LMA and Blake to round out the top 5.

Curious where people slot JO in this conversation with these five, Amare, Bosh. Guys like Nance are harder to directly place because these other guys all played in the same general generation, plus or minus a few years.

I had JO close to Blake and LMA, clustered together. I suppose others had them higher because they were picked first. JO is the best defender of the group and the most imposing. He’s a more athletic finisher than LMA but clearly less skilled and more of a black hole. Similar to Blake in terms of actual shooting during their peak. So maybe worse on offense, better on defense. More of a center than those two.

He did go farther as the best player on a team, but who knows how others would’ve done. It’s an interesting cluster of guys - JO, Bosh, Blake, Amare, LMA.

I had JO and Nance as my clear targets in round 6, and head and shoulders above the other bigs, at least those on my radar.

Cummings was also a great choice but I was more defense focused.

I don’t have JO in the tier with those 5-7 guys. He was a black hole and not super efficient on offense. Much less an offensive engine than those guys but more of a center and notably better on D.
2023 Non-Active, Non-NBA 75 Historical Draft, SAB Bulls:

PG: Deron Williams 08 / John Wall 17
SG: David Thompson 78 (HOF) / Hersey Hawkins 91
SF: TMac 03 (HOF) / M.R. Richardson 81 / Tayshaun 07
PF: Larry Nance Sr 92 / Blake Griffin 14
C: Lanier 77 (HOF) / Brad Daugherty 91 / Camby 07

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #845 on: August 09, 2023, 09:59:17 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Another little reminder on Walter Davis - he is the all-time leading scorer for the Suns. Not a bad accolade for a 7th rounder ;)
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #846 on: August 09, 2023, 10:03:46 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Question for the crowd:  is there any GM who isn't completely happy with their team?  With the way the board has fallen, are there any moves that you would make differently?


I'M THE SILVERBACK GORILLA IN THIS MOTHER——— AND DON'T NONE OF YA'LL EVER FORGET IT!@ 34 minutes

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #847 on: August 09, 2023, 10:14:25 PM »

Offline gouki88

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Question for the crowd:  is there any GM who isn't completely happy with their team?  With the way the board has fallen, are there any moves that you would make differently?
Besides everyone regretting not drafting my perfect team?
'23 Historical Draft: Orlando Magic.

PG: Terry Porter (90-91) / Steve Francis (00-01)
SG: Joe Dumars (92-93) / Jeff Hornacek (91-92) / Jerry Stackhouse (00-01)
SF: Brandon Roy (08-09) / Walter Davis (78-79)
PF: Terry Cummings (84-85) / Paul Millsap (15-16)
C: Chris Webber (00-01) / Ralph Sampson (83-84) / Andrew Bogut (09-10)

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #848 on: August 09, 2023, 10:22:47 PM »

Offline theswitch

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Question for the crowd:  is there any GM who isn't completely happy with their team?  With the way the board has fallen, are there any moves that you would make differently?

Had I whiffed on JO, I would have had some real regrets about what now feels like were luxury picks in Gasol and Bobby Jones. I love both guys, but neither are flashy -- and I probably underestimated how much offensive engine you need to keep up in this league. Not just guys who "do the right thing" all the time but people who are going to bulldog their way to 20+ points if you need them to. I have that in the backcourt, but not in the frontcourt. If JO wasn't there, I would have said "man, should I just have punted on Gasol and tried to pick up Vlade later?" or "why did I get cute and take Bobby when I should have taken LMA?" Luckily that worked out and honestly I think that pick kicksaved my team from "not enough" to "in the conversation."

Similarly, I would have really regretted the Jones pick if I didn't get Marques because I felt like he was a 2nd or 3rd round talent. But similarly he's an "A- at everything" kind of guy. He's not going to just turn it on and be Tracy McGrady. I would probably have felt like I should've just taken Peja to keep an offensive engine going.

So in retrospect I feel pretty lucky because I made some mistakes along the way, had single-threaded ways of kicksaving myself out of it, and feel pretty good about where I'm at now. My personal lesson -- the "not bad at anything but not elite at anything" guys (M Gasol, M Johnson, Bobby Jones-ish at least on offense) are really valuable to fill out a team...but you can't have a full team of them. I had thought Penny and Westphal would be enough "oomph" offensively and I could surround them with the right complementary pieces, and I was 1-2 power punchers early for doing that. I put JO in that bucket which is why I'm so happy with it. A guy who might be better known for defense but is going to lead the team in scoring if you need him to. Which is maybe the case for M Johnson but not for Jones or Gasol, or really Fat either. With JO I think you can afford the rest of the guys to be complementary.
2023 Historical Draft: Toronto Raptors

Point Guard: Anfernee Hardaway, Fat Lever, Terrell Brandon
Shooting Guard: Paul Westphal, Paul Pressey
Small Forward: Marques Johnson, Danny Granger
Power Forward: Jermaine O'Neal, Bobby Jones, Kiki Vandeweghe
Center: Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #849 on: August 09, 2023, 10:56:14 PM »

Offline theswitch

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The ultimate sign of regret -- trying to desperately trade your way out of your own problem. I was trying to get the offensive cousins (as SAB called them) to give me either Blake or LMA for Jones with the argument that they needed the defense and the offense was a luxury. They both declined and selected strong defenders in Nance and Grant the next round. I tried a similar thing for Amare but that's too big of a leap.

I think all three of us are happy we didn't make that trade because we ended up solving our weaknesses organically, but clearly me trying to trade my 3rd rounder for a 4th / 5th is a sign of "I screwed up!"
2023 Historical Draft: Toronto Raptors

Point Guard: Anfernee Hardaway, Fat Lever, Terrell Brandon
Shooting Guard: Paul Westphal, Paul Pressey
Small Forward: Marques Johnson, Danny Granger
Power Forward: Jermaine O'Neal, Bobby Jones, Kiki Vandeweghe
Center: Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #850 on: August 10, 2023, 12:13:38 AM »

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Question for the crowd:  is there any GM who isn't completely happy with their team?  With the way the board has fallen, are there any moves that you would make differently?

I regret not taking Terry Cummings earlier. I decided to take Sikma and hope he dropped to the late 6th round. I felt there was enough alternatives to be happy if he wasn't available but most of them dried up. The ones that were available I wasn't wild about the fit with the other guys on the roster (King, KJ, Zo). Also, I was surprised by how much talent was still available at center for the bench roles.

I was surprised in general by how the center position played out in the draft. Some great talent dropped far in Lanier & Gilmore. Some other decisions surprised me too. Cousins not being a starter (or at least not being drafted in the top 5 rounds) and another player who has yet to be drafted not being a starter. If I thought those two would have slipped, I wouldn't have gone for Sikma. I would finished my starting 5 off. I was worried by the lack of skilled centers in the crop of backup fives which is why I went with Sikma instead of finishing my starting unit.

Plus, I am of mixed minds on Eddie Jones. Part of me loved him when he was playing and part of me doesn't believe in him which is why I didn't draft him in a previous draft. I am still not sure where I am at with him. I wasn't able to get what I wanted at the SG position (skill-set wise) so I took Eddie because of his high level defense and solid offense.

I love the KJ, King & Zo core. I love the Gus, Dandridge and Sikma bench. Lukewarm on E Jones. Unsure how the PF position will play out. I have one PF I really like but he is a bit small next to Zo. I was thinking of him more as a bench PF. We'll see.

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #851 on: August 10, 2023, 12:23:51 AM »

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Is Sheed the 3rd best PF in the league?

This is considering Pau at center and Amare at PF for that Nets team. I have C Webb #1 Kemp #2 Sheed #3. Tempted by LMA and Blake to round out the top 5.

Curious where people slot JO in this conversation with these five, Amare, Bosh. Guys like Nance are harder to directly place because these other guys all played in the same general generation, plus or minus a few years.

I had JO close to Blake and LMA, clustered together. I suppose others had them higher because they were picked first. JO is the best defender of the group and the most imposing. He’s a more athletic finisher than LMA but clearly less skilled and more of a black hole. Similar to Blake in terms of actual shooting during their peak. So maybe worse on offense, better on defense. More of a center than those two.

He did go farther as the best player on a team, but who knows how others would’ve done. It’s an interesting cluster of guys - JO, Bosh, Blake, Amare, LMA.

I had JO and Nance as my clear targets in round 6, and head and shoulders above the other bigs, at least those on my radar.

Cummings was also a great choice but I was more defense focused.

I don’t have JO in the tier with those 5-7 guys. He was a black hole and not super efficient on offense. Much less an offensive engine than those guys but more of a center and notably better on D.

Yeah, I had a tough time ranking JO. I had two ranking systems. A basic one which started out of tiers (MVP candidate, All-Pro, All-Star, non-All-Star) which JO did well on. Then I had a subjective ranking system which JO rated poorly on. There was five categories - defense, rebounding, scoring efficiency, passing, shooting.

JO scored near the top in defense (2nd behind Sheed), above average rebounding but near the bottom of the list in all three offensive categories. Limited range and efficiency on the jump-shot. Low level passer. Often created stagnant offenses when you tried to play through him as did Zo for Miami when they tried to play through him. Both for similar reasons. Their lack of passing meant the others became spectators whenever they tried to play one-on-one in the post. JO often settled for lower percentage turnaround shots in the post which rarely draw fouls. So fewer direct rim finishes + fewer fouls drawn + dodgy jump-shot = lower scoring efficiency.

I also thought Jermaine was the type of player whose value alters drastically depending on what situation he is in. I love the situation next to Marc Gasol. JO needs a center who can space the floor. And a center who can pass as well and facilitate the offense is great news for JO.

I did not like JO next to an offensively limited center like Dwight Howard or one of Mutombo, Big Ben, Joakim Noah. JO doesn't shoot the ball well enough to provide enough floor spacing next to them. I also did not like JO next to Yao or Artis because the paint would be too crowded. I prefer smaller more mobile PFs next to them.

I thought JO could play with Zo (great defensive combo) but I did not think JO could play with Zo, King and KJ. That trio needed more of a floor spacer which is why I passed on JO. Not sure whether that was the right decision or the wrong decision but that is why I made it. I wanted more jump-shooting.

So sort of a strange guy to rank.

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #852 on: August 10, 2023, 12:30:56 AM »

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Jermaine O'Neal was the other big man alongside Ben Wallace on that 2002 Team USA that got their butt kicked by Vlade Divac in that matchup against Serbia where Team USA got beaten. It was impressive just how much more skilled Vlade was. Obviously more skilled than Big Ben but JO as well.

Superior passing ability so Vlade was in and around the ball more often causing problems for Team USA's defense while JO was largely a spectator unless it was a scoring opportunity.

Superior shooting range making Vlade a threat far away from the hoop all the way out to the three point line while JO was struggling with a 15 footer and Big Ben can't be trusted to make a jump-shot.

And superior size in Vlade's post ups. Able to cause more problems. Just flat out bigger than either JO or Big Ben. Able to shoot over them inside. JO had a harder time getting his shot off and had to resort to that turnaround fallaway jump shot of his.

Completely outclassed them. Vlade did. It was an impressive performance.

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #853 on: August 10, 2023, 12:36:20 AM »

Offline theswitch

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Here's my basic attempt at a "Jermaine O'Neal is underrated offensively" argument which is on my mind. Let's play it out between him and Blake because they are similar guys.

In the seasons selected, here are some stats:
Less than 5 feet: JO 232-424 (55%), Blake 491-708 (69%)
5-9 feet: JO 127-338 (38%), Blake 40-142 (28%)
10-14 feet: JO 124-315 (39%), Blake 31-73 (43%)
15-19 feet: JO 114-281 (41%), Blake 95-226 (36%)
20-24 feet: JO 11-13 (33%), Blake 58-151 (38%)

Of those shots, here's the makeup:
Jump Shots: JO 394-1029 (38%), Blake 219-648 (34%)
Alley Oops, Layups, Dunks: JO 184-319 (58%), Blake 451-597 (76%). Notably Blake had 50 more alley oops where they both finished 80%-85%. Jermaine's FG% delta comes from layups
The rest is miscellaneous other stuff.

So from looking at that, I say that of course Blake is a better finisher. I also say that Jermaine O'Neal is actually...a better shooter! He's better or at least at par from 10-24 feet, and he's meaningfully better from 5-9 feet. Blake got way more "gimme" attempts at the rim, shooting 300+ times more there.

That gives me two conclusions. One is that Jermaine has terrible shot selection, and two is that perhaps Jermaine was on a team where he felt like he had to do that. So let's look there.

Blake's team had Chris Paul at point guard (10+ assists) and a couple capable team passing guards.

Jermaine's team had...eh, I'm just going to say it because he's not getting drafted -- Jamaal Tinsley and his 5.8 assists per game and 40% shooting at point guard. Good luck with that! At shooting guard, he had Reggie in his twilight who was never really a passer and certainly not at that age was he creating for others. Ron Artest is also a black hole on offense despite his insane abilities elsewhere. The other swing player there who could feasibly be drafted was a ball hog when he did get it. It might have been the worse ball movement team of all time!

So my point is that Jermaine may have had some bad shot selection, but his actual offensive talent level is not that far off of these other guys. Had he played with Chris Paul, he would have gotten way more rim opportunities and had to force fewer jump shots. He was asked to just take the ball and figure it out. Which he still did, but is way harder when you're double teamed every time. And they still almost made the NBA Finals.

I'm not trying to overhype here -- I think he's clearly a step below Rasheed, LMA, even another to-be-drafted guy maybe although that guy had an elite point guard. Maybe Griffin -- I'm not trying to diss Blake here either because he's quite good as well. I'm just trying to suggest that if Jermaine has guys like Penny, Marques, Westphal, and Gasol on the court with him to actually play offense, then he's not going to be such a dingus with the basketball. He's going to rim-run and use his athleticism like Kemp and Blake did. He's going to park down low. He's going to get 1x1 looks rather than double teams. That change of situation elevates Jermaine to be an offensive threat maybe not at their level but not far off it.

EDIT: It's interesting. Maybe I would take 02-03. That's a good example. He had more team oriented players on the roster (a couple I can't mention). Suddenly instead of 319 of those three types of shots, he had 123 dunks, 199 layups, and 11 alley ups attempted -- and made 69% of them. Because of that, potentially, he shot fewer jumpers (877) and made marginally more of them. So when he had a real team around him to facilitate, he had a much better mix of shot selection and a much higher rate of finishing because they were better looks. Put him in those situations and you get good results.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2023, 01:04:58 AM by theswitch »
2023 Historical Draft: Toronto Raptors

Point Guard: Anfernee Hardaway, Fat Lever, Terrell Brandon
Shooting Guard: Paul Westphal, Paul Pressey
Small Forward: Marques Johnson, Danny Granger
Power Forward: Jermaine O'Neal, Bobby Jones, Kiki Vandeweghe
Center: Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka

Re: 2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Draft OPEN
« Reply #854 on: August 10, 2023, 12:39:12 AM »

Offline theswitch

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I also thought Jermaine was the type of player whose value alters drastically depending on what situation he is in. I love the situation next to Marc Gasol. JO needs a center who can space the floor. And a center who can pass as well and facilitate the offense is great news for JO.

I did not like JO next to an offensively limited center like Dwight Howard or one of Mutombo, Big Ben, Joakim Noah. JO doesn't shoot the ball well enough to provide enough floor spacing next to them. I also did not like JO next to Yao or Artis because the paint would be too crowded. I prefer smaller more mobile PFs next to them.

I should've just saved the trouble and agreed with your two sentences instead, haha. Your first sentence in this quote is more or less the point I spent many more words making.
2023 Historical Draft: Toronto Raptors

Point Guard: Anfernee Hardaway, Fat Lever, Terrell Brandon
Shooting Guard: Paul Westphal, Paul Pressey
Small Forward: Marques Johnson, Danny Granger
Power Forward: Jermaine O'Neal, Bobby Jones, Kiki Vandeweghe
Center: Marc Gasol, Serge Ibaka