2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Results in OP!

[Who]

Dennis Johnson was the Finals MVP in 1979.

I did not know he was also the favourite to win Finals MVP in 1978 if Seattle had of won the series. They lost in Game 7 to Washington by 6 points. So inches away from back-to-back Finals MVPs.

[gouki88]

After three rounds, I am fairly happy with my initial trio of Webber, Roy & Dumars.

Chris Webber:
Standing at 6'10, weighing 245lbs, with a 7'3" wingspan, Webber was truly ahead of his time as an offensive force. He will feature as the lead scorer of this team. His offensive repertoire was intriguing - his hook shot going right was unstoppable, he could shoot jumpers, utilised drop steps and turnaround shots in the post, and finished with authority at the rim. Not only could he score, but his guard skills were incredible. He could pass like few ever at his position could, and utilised this in the half-court to great benefit for his team. His ball-handling was like that of someone 6 inches shorter, and could run fast breaks as a ball-handler despite his size. This, in combination with his passing, led to him being a very unique offensive player. I think this will be a natural fit alongside Roy and Dumars, who are both excellent shooters in the mid-range and good from the 3PT line.

Webber was solid defensively too. Not an elite defender, but a good shot-blocker and steal generator. His positioning was reliable, he had good physical tools, and he was an excellent rebounder (including being a 1 time rebounding leader at PF). His overall high BBIQ helped in this regard too, as he was constantly in the right position.

Brandon Roy:
Despite Brandon Roy's prime being tragically cut short, there is no doubting the excellence of his talent. Standing at 6'6" and weighing 215lbs, I think he will fit neatly in at the SF position on this team. His offensive talent speaks for itself - Roy was a true 3 level scorer with an incredibly versatile repertoire. His finishing at the rim was strong, he drew fouls at a good level, his mid-range game was poetry, he was a significantly above average passer, and he was very clutch.
Kobe Bryant in 2010, when asked who he found toughest to guard, responded with "Brandon Roy 365, 7 days a week. Roy has no weaknesses in his game."

Roy's offence was ahead of his time. Using step backs, hesitations, and nasty crossovers, Roy created separation with ease for whatever bucket he wanted. His high IQ on offence led to him having one of the most well-rounded offensive games in the league. A natural fit alongside Webber.

His defensive game was also solid. He was not an elite athlete, but he was strong through his core, had a good understanding of the game, was versatile enough to cover a variety of perimeter types, and utilised his IQ and positioning to jump passing lanes.

Joe Dumars:
Michael Jordan on Joe Dumars' defence:

He thought well, and he was very smart about his defense. I think he approaches the game as trying to dissect his opponents and try to find weaknesses or try to force them to do things they didn't feel comfortable doing. He introduced certain tricks to make me expand on my talents as an offensive player, and that is why I consider him one of the best.

Joe Dumars was elite defensively. Despite being only 6'3", he had length and strength to go toe-to-toe with a variety of opponents PG-SF. He had quick hands, a quicker brain, and a relentless work ethic that led to him being one of the most persistent and tireless defenders of the period. He was excellent at contesting shots without fouling, and forced his opponents into being very uncomfortable.

Despite carrying such a defensive load, he was also a very good offensive player. He was a very reliable scorer, utilising jumpshots, floaters and crafty finishes inside. His pull-up game from the mid-range was deadly, but he was also an excellent 3PT shooter. He was also a big game performer, often coming up big in the clutch - hence winning a Finals MVP over Isiah Thomas.

His playmaking is an underrated aspect of his game. He was a strong secondary playmaker, didn't turn it over too much, and was capable of stepping into lead ball-handler roles when necessary.


Overall, very happy with the trio. Think they fit really nicely alongside one another. There are a couple of point guards and several big men I am hopeful to round out my starting 5 with over the coming rounds.

[gouki88]

Before Damian Lillard was dominating off the dribble and hitting miraculous shot after miraculous shot, there was Brandon Roy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OGuwOEet4JU

If you have a spare half hour, and want to watch some of the smoothest offensive basketball of the last few decades, then watch that link

[gouki88]

Apologies for the semi-spam of this thread, but it's Sunday afternoon here

The more I watch of B Roy, the more and more I am reminded of one player. Specifically, Paul Pierce. Roy was a bit smaller and weaker, but a touch quicker. But the way they operated just looks so similar to me. Smooth and effortless, clutch as hell, unstoppable. Such a satisfying player to watch

[Who]

Oh, that is interesting. You are going small on the perimeter with B Roy switching over to SF instead of SG. I figured you were going to go big with Joe D at PG next to Roy. A big beefy backcourt.

SF will be tough for Roy. He doesn't really have the size or defensive skills to handle those bigger wings he'll have to deal with there. A lot of physical power wings from the 80s. Some guys who are just too long for him. On the flipside, the same is true on the other end of the court. Roy is too quick, too good of a ball-handler and too good of a jump-shooter for most of these SFs to deal with. Some of the more recent athletic SFs will fare better defensively with him. Iggy, Marion, G Hill. Maybe McGrady. The older guys will struggle more.


I love your team. Joe Dumars is basically a 2nd PG playing at SG. He is so special in terms of his ball-handling, passing and immense shooting ability. He had huge range for a guy in the mid-90s. Great accuracy as well. His three point threat would be so much greater in today's league where he would be encouraged to take more of those shots.

Then you have B Roy who is also basically a 2nd PG playing at SG or at SF on your team. He was the main playmaker in Portland. Everything ran through him. He was the brain of the team.

Then you have C Webber who with his high post passing, low post passing & ball-handling skills is close to a PG in the body of a big man either at PF or C.

Three PG type players and you are planning on adding a 4th real PG to play alongside them. Huge collection of ball-handling, passing and shooting talent.

I am excited to see how this team looks after the next two rounds and the starting lineup is finished. This is a fun looking basketball team.

[Who]

Going back to Dantley, and sticking with Joe D for a moment, one of the interesting things about this duo was DET wanting to trade Dantley so that Dumars could have a larger role in the offense. They were unhappy that Dantley was go iso all the time and stagnate the offense. That he froze out their guards too often who they wanted to be the centerpiece of their offense despite Dantley's prolific and extremely efficient scoring.

What is interesting here is looking at Dumars scoring in the playoffs with Dantley and after Dantley:

1986 = Dumars 15ppg ECR1 vs Hawks
1987 = Dumars 10ppg ECR1 vs Bullets
1987 = Dumars 11.4ppg ECSF vs Hawks
1987 = Dumars 14ppg ECF vs Celtics
1988 = Dumars 11.2ppg ECR1 vs Bullets
1988 = Dumars 11.2ppg ECSF vs Bulls (MJ)
1988 = Dumars 13ppg ECF vs Celtics
1988 = Dumars 13.4ppg Finals vs Lakers

I knew Dumars had taken a bigger role post Dantley but I had no idea it was this large of a leap. He was between 10-13ppg in most of those playoff series. Only topping out at 14ppg vs Boston in 1987 and 15ppg as a rookie.

1989 = Dumars 20.7ppg ECR1 vs Celtics
1989 = Dumars 12ppg ECSF vs Bucks
1989 = Dumars 13ppg ECF vs Bulls (MJ)
1989 = Dumars 27ppg Finals vs Lakers

1990 = Dumars 15.3ppg ECR1 vs Pacers
1990 = Dumars 15ppg ECSF vs Knicks
1990 = Dumars 20ppg ECF vs Bulls (MJ)
1990 = Dumars 20.6ppg Finals vs Blazers

1991 = Dumars ECR1 23.8ppg vs Hawks
1991 = Dumars ECSF 23.3ppg vs Celtics
1991 = Dumars ECF 12.5ppg vs Bulls (MJ)

1992 = Dumars ECR1 16.8ppg vs Knicks


Dumars played a couple of series next to Grant Hill but that was post-prime Dumars and he was only scoring 10-13ppg at that point in his career.

The other thing that pops out about those numbers is how up and down Joe's scoring was. He was still having 12-15ppg series in about half of those series. And he was straight killing guys with 20+ppg in the other half. That 27ppg vs LA in the Finals that got him the Finals MVP stands out.

Also it is interesting to see his offensive production against MJ. He had two series were he scored well against MJ and three series where he struggled on offense from having to deal with MJ on defense. I never liked those Bulls vs Pistons series. I found them hard to watch. A lot of ugly basketball.

I loved the ugly defensive basketball of the Heat vs Knicks in the 90s but I never liked the Pistons and Bulls version. It was awesome to watch big men like Ewing and Zo battle in the paint alongside those other physical bigs in those series. But the CHI vs DET series were dominated by small scoring guards and big scoring wings. Not as a fun watching them try to beat their defensive opponent 20 feet from the hoop off the dribble. Never warmed up those matchups. Always found them ugly. I liked watching those teams DET and CHI play other teams but never each other.


But yeah, basically two main take-aways:

(1) I had no idea Dumars was scoring so little in the playoffs when Dantley was there. I thought he was up around 15-18ppg and then became a 20ppg guy post Dantley. But he was typically in that 11-13ppg range with Dantley.

(2) I had no idea how up and down Dumars was in the playoffs after Dantley left. I always have him down in my head as a model of consistency.

It doesn't bother me that Dumars was up and down particularly in a draft like this where you have so many scorers. I just did not realize it.

[Who]

On the subject of Adrian Dantley and what his playing style would look in today's league:

I expect the league will look more similar to the NBA of 2010 than the NBA of 2023 due to so many teams having two big men. So in comparing Dantley to a player from that era, I would think Dantley would setup in similar spots as Kobe Bryant did (or to a lesser degree Melo). A lot of mid-post action with either his back to the basket or facing up and looking to drive.

I would say about 80% of his offense came inside of 15 feet and I would say that would probably hold true for today's league. Dantley had a very good 18-20 foot jump-shot but he didn't use it much. He only had it to setup his driving game. He would tempt you out and then try to manevour his way around you towards the basket either for a layup or FTs. He killed teams with his scoring in the paint and at the FT line. That is why he was so efficient. I expect he would try to maintain that in our league. I can see him exchanging some of those long 2s for 3s but I only see him as a low volume 3 point shooter.

If Dantley were to play in 2023 with the four out or five out spread offense, I could see him develop into more of a ball-handler and PnR operator. He was fantastic at using his body to create advantages over the defender. So I am thinking of guys like Luka and Harden. Not necessarily the fastest but clever use of their physicality and change of speeds to keep defenders off balance and create advantages. Also CP3 with his snake dribble. I expect Dantley would be using that a lot as well. I could see him being a very effective driver and scorer from these situations and continue to feast with scoring inside the paint and at the foul line. He would still be amazing at drawing contact.

So either way, I expect Dantley would be a killer scoring wise. Ultimately, I expect our league to be more like 2010 and Dantley to be more of a mid-post operator than a PnR operator from the three point line. Outside shooting was only ever used to setup his inside game and I expect that would still be true in 2010 as it was in the 1980s.

[gouki88]

Oh, that is interesting. You are going small on the perimeter with B Roy switching over to SF instead of SG. I figured you were going to go big with Joe D at PG next to Roy. A big beefy backcourt.

SF will be tough for Roy. He doesn't really have the size or defensive skills to handle those bigger wings he'll have to deal with there. A lot of physical power wings from the 80s. Some guys who are just too long for him. On the flipside, the same is true on the other end of the court. Roy is too quick, too good of a ball-handler and too good of a jump-shooter for most of these SFs to deal with. Some of the more recent athletic SFs will fare better defensively with him. Iggy, Marion, G Hill. Maybe McGrady. The older guys will struggle more.


I love your team. Joe Dumars is basically a 2nd PG playing at SG. He is so special in terms of his ball-handling, passing and immense shooting ability. He had huge range for a guy in the mid-90s. Great accuracy as well. His three point threat would be so much greater in today's league where he would be encouraged to take more of those shots.

Then you have B Roy who is also basically a 2nd PG playing at SG or at SF on your team. He was the main playmaker in Portland. Everything ran through him. He was the brain of the team.

Then you have C Webber who with his high post passing, low post passing & ball-handling skills is close to a PG in the body of a big man either at PF or C.

Three PG type players and you are planning on adding a 4th real PG to play alongside them. Huge collection of ball-handling, passing and shooting talent.

I am excited to see how this team looks after the next two rounds and the starting lineup is finished. This is a fun looking basketball team.

It is quite subject to change. There are a couple of point guards who I think would be super fun to put alongside these guys that would fit nicely, but if they don’t make it to me I might revisit. Go with a bigger wing player and rely on the playmaking of the initial 3 guys.

So many darn options! Love these games

[Who]

A few words on Kevin Johnson

KJ is one of just three PGs to average 20-10 for three straight seasons. And missed just by hair of doing a 4th time (19.7ppg). This was his most dominant and healthy portion of his career. The pre-Barkley years. KJ was not just productive but super efficient getting to the FT line 7-8 times a game against his 14-15 FGAs to put up TS% around 58-60%. That FT rate is insane for a little guard. One FT for every two FGs.

KJ was probably the best one-on-one threat at PG off the dribble in the league at that time. And for my money, the best in this league as well. He had lightening like explosion. Great change of speeds, great hesitation dribbles, in and out dribbles, crossovers. Nothing to fancy. He didn't need it. He was so fast he could get by anyone any time he wanted. And this was in the hand-checking era nevermind today's era which gives ball-handlers so much more advantages.


His playoff resume is sensational.

1989 - 30.7ppg 13apg vs Nuggets WCR1
1989 - 20ppg 11.4apg vs Warriors WCSF
1989 - 23.3ppg 21.8apg vs Lakers WCF (Magic)

1990 - 19.8ppg 9.2apg vs Jazz WCR1 (Stockton)
1990 - 22ppg 11.2apg vs Lakers WCSF (Magic)
1990 - 21.8ppg 11.3apg vs Blazers WCF

1991 - 12.8ppg 9.8apg vs Jazz WCR1 (Stockton)

1992 - 22.3ppg 15.7apg vs Spurs WCR1
1992 - 24.4ppg 9.2apg vs Blazers WCSF


KJ had only one bad series in 4 years. He was one of the most dominant playoff performers of this period. He dueled twice with Magic Johnson and got a 1-1 split. Both players played brilliantly in both series. Many felt KJ outplayed him in the 2nd one because KJ was one who made all the clutch plays down the stretch to lead his team to a 4-1 victory over Magic's 63 win #1 seed Lakers.

KJ went head to head with Stockton twice. Again splitting 1-1. He had his only bad series of the four years in their 2nd meeting. Stockton vastly outplaying him. In the first one, it is commonly viewed that KJ outplayed Stockton but I am not sure. They were more different than anything. KJ was the better one-on-one player where everything revolved around him (20ppg 9apg) while Stockton was the chief conductor overseeing everything (15ppg 15apg). Neither guy shot the ball that well. Again, KJ made the clutch plays when it mattered.

KJ played those great Blazers teams who made the Finals both years losing to DET and CHI. KJ was the best player on the floor in the first series. Not Drexler. If not for a late injury at the end of the final game, PHO may have won that series. In 1992, both players played great with Drexler getting the nod putting up a dominant 31ppg 8rpg 7apg 57% TS% performance. KJ was 24ppg 9.2pg 59% TS%.

A great 4 year stretch where Kevin Johnson was All-NBA 2nd team three times (behind Magic and MJ at guard) and 3rd team in 1992. His team had great playoff runs making the WCF twice and the WCSF once. He was dominant in each run and each series except for one where his team lost and got knocked out early. Over the 4 years in the playoffs, including his bad series, KJ averaged 21.6ppg and 11.2apg on 15.5 FGAs and 8.1 FTAs (57% TS%).

KJ also played some of the best guards in the league during that playoff stretch including two of the finest PGs to ever play in Magic Johnson and John Stockton. That was top level competition he was doing this against. Along with Drexler, Mullin, Richmond. And an old A English. And some other top guards who have yet to be drafted.

[Who]

The second half of KJ's career (the Barkley years) saw him start to have injury problems. He would miss games every season. 1993 49 games played, 67gms, 47gms, 56gms, 70gms for the remainder of his post-peak prime years. KJ would continue to dominate in the post-season.

1993-1996 Playoff Run

In 1993, he struggled to find his place on the Barkley Suns during the regular season but he stepped it up in the playoffs.

1993 WCR1 18ppg 10apg vs Lakers
1993 WCSF 20.8ppg 9apg vs Spurs (D-Rob)
1993 WCF 15.9ppg 7.0apg vs Sonics (Payton)
1993 Finals 17.2ppg 6.5apg vs Bulls (MJ, Pip)

KJ struggled some against the Sonics trapping defense along with their two big defensive guards particularly Payton who was hounding him. He was inconsistent in the series but finished strong with 19, 8 and 2 steals per game over the final 3 to seal the series.

In the Finals, KJ played like crap the first two games. Only 7.5ppg and 4apg on 29% shooting. The final four games he dominated with 22ppg 8apg on good shooting (46% FG%).

1994 & 1995 - Suns lose to Rockets

1994 WCR1 26.7ppg 9.3apg vs Warriors (Webber, Mullin)
1994 WCSF 26.6ppg 9.7apg vs Rockets

1995 WCR1 17.7ppg 9apg vs Blazers
1995 WCSF 27.9ppg 9.4apg 66% TS% vs Rockets

The Suns would get knocked out both years by the Champion Houston Rockets team led by Hakeem Olajuwon. Both years Kevin Johnson would thoroughly dominate them but it wouldn't be enough. KJ was the 2nd best player on the court behind Hakeem who was the best player in the NBA at that time.

1996 WCR1 17.3ppg 10.8apg vs Spurs (D-Rob)

Over this 4 year period, KJ would average 21.1ppg 8.8apg on 49% FG% and again average roughly 1 FT per 2 FG with 7.2 FTAs per game vs 15.5 FGAs. A 57.4% TS%.

Final Years

KJ would play in a two PG backcourt in 1997 alongside J Kidd while still putting up 20ppg 9apg on 63% TS%. Kidd mostly ran the point while KJ played the two. KJ struggled in the playoffs averaging 17ppg 6apg 2.6spg on terrible shooting numbers (30% FG% 41% TS%) against Payton's Sonics. He played one more year as a backup PG playing 20mpg and played well against the Spurs twin towers in the playoffs the following season. 14ppg 5apg 58% TS%.

Overall

KJ averaged 19.8ppg 10apg on 49.7% FG% with 7.2 FTA to 13.7 FGA for Phoenix between 1988 until 1997. 59% TS%.

KJ maintained this well in the playoffs with 21.1ppg 9.7apg on 47% FG% with 7.6 FTA to 15.5 FGA for a 56% TS%. 57% if not for the final bad series against Seattle in 1997.

One of the most productive offensive PGs of All-Time. Incredible playoff performances and coupled with a lot of team success. Some of it with him as the #1 guy and some of it with him as the #2 to Barkley.

[Moranis]

On the subject of Adrian Dantley and what his playing style would look in today's league:

I expect the league will look more similar to the NBA of 2010 than the NBA of 2023 due to so many teams having two big men. So in comparing Dantley to a player from that era, I would think Dantley would setup in similar spots as Kobe Bryant did (or to a lesser degree Melo). A lot of mid-post action with either his back to the basket or facing up and looking to drive.

I would say about 80% of his offense came inside of 15 feet and I would say that would probably hold true for today's league. Dantley had a very good 18-20 foot jump-shot but he didn't use it much. He only had it to setup his driving game. He would tempt you out and then try to manevour his way around you towards the basket either for a layup or FTs. He killed teams with his scoring in the paint and at the FT line. That is why he was so efficient. I expect he would try to maintain that in our league. I can see him exchanging some of those long 2s for 3s but I only see him as a low volume 3 point shooter.

If Dantley were to play in 2023 with the four out or five out spread offense, I could see him develop into more of a ball-handler and PnR operator. He was fantastic at using his body to create advantages over the defender. So I am thinking of guys like Luka and Harden. Not necessarily the fastest but clever use of their physicality and change of speeds to keep defenders off balance and create advantages. Also CP3 with his snake dribble. I expect Dantley would be using that a lot as well. I could see him being a very effective driver and scorer from these situations and continue to feast with scoring inside the paint and at the foul line. He would still be amazing at drawing contact.

So either way, I expect Dantley would be a killer scoring wise. Ultimately, I expect our league to be more like 2010 and Dantley to be more of a mid-post operator than a PnR operator from the three point line. Outside shooting was only ever used to setup his inside game and I expect that would still be true in 2010 as it was in the 1980s.

This where I was on him and why I just couldn't pass up the talent.  Over 4 straight seasons he averaged 30.5 ppg on 19.2 shots with a 56.4 FG%.  He got to the line 10.7 times per game during that stretch.  While also getting 6.1 rpg and 4.0 apg.  He had a contract dispute in Utah and didn't get along with Zeke in Detroit, but the Pistons were still very good with him.  He was older and Dumars was on the rise, plus the dispute with Thomas was a potential landmine (and Thomas was way younger), so they moved on from AD, but I do think they probably still win the title those seasons with AD instead of post-trade (I mean they lost game 7 in LA by 3 in the Finals).  They were just on the upswing and Dantley was a casualty of being older and a bit more prickly.  Plus, many feel Thomas engineered the trade to play with his child hood friend.

Some teammates on playing with AD in Detroit who the players had nicknamed The Teacher

Joe Dumars was reportedly very saddened about the trade but remained silent. Later, Joe claimed that Dantley was the best teammate he ever played with.

[name removed - not drafted yet] told Mitch Albom of the Detroit Free Press, “How could they trade the Teacher? He was my mentor. A lot of the guys felt that way. I like [new guy AD was traded for]. He’s ok, but AD did a lot for us.”

AD didn't get along with Thomas and that was why he was moved, but a lot of contemporary players didn't like or get along with Thomas.  I mean he was left off the Dream Team because of that, so that was probably more Thomas than Dantley. 

[gouki88]

Nearly time for round 4!

[Roy H.]

Nearly time for round 4!

New idea:  we turn this into a 30 round draft, picking morning, noon and night.  Haha.

I pick third but only have two targets.

[gouki88]

Nearly time for round 4!

New idea:  we turn this into a 30 round draft, picking morning, noon and night.  Haha.

I pick third but only have two targets.

Perpetual drafts until the regular season it is!

[smokeablount]

Nearly time for round 4!

I wish it would start now! 6 long hours to mail in work with highlights on the TV in the background.