2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Results in OP!

[Who]

Chris Mullin is one of those players that I wasn't as high on back in the day but have gradually become higher on in recent times. I think he would be phenomenal in today's league. His shooting, his efficiency, his passing, his intelligence. Phenomenal.

I was thinking about Mullin relative to a guy like B King. I like King better as a shot-creator. As a one-on-one guy. But Mullin ... wait, one other thing first.

There is a couple of top notch jump-shooting SFs in this draft. Mullin stands out from the crowd because of the variety of shots he was able to generate for himself. He was able to get off a higher volume of attempts in more varied situations. It made him incredibly consistent against the toughest defenses and in the playoffs. Much more so than some of these other sweet shooting SFs from the 90s &  00s. So I grade him as a much better scorer. More resilient scorer. Add in his passing on top of that and his overall offensive package is far more impressive than theirs.

Back to B King and Mully.

The thought that was bothering me some before the draft was .... I love King because of his combination of high volume scoring + high efficiency scoring. Mullin is not quite as high volume but he still has strong volume and with this more even playing environment nobody is going to dominate FGAs like they did with their real life NBA teams.

So that lower volume plus Mullin being a standout team offense guy with his unlimited shooting range (gravity) and good passing, is Mullin just as valuable an offensive player as King? Or even more valuable?

I love the way Mullin played on the Dream Team. I expect he'd do similarly here. A devastating jump-shooting threat who makes everything around him on offense work better.

[Who]

The other thing with Mullin when I was looking at him prior to the draft that stood out was his consistency in the playoffs:

1990 - two series - 29ppg 4.5apg 61% TS%
1991 - two series - 24ppg 3apg 62% TS%
1992 - one series - only down series, 18ppg 51% TS%
1994 - one series - 25ppg 4apg 68% TS%

So only one bad series out of six. And in 5 of those 6 series he was basically in the mid to high 20s in points per game while shooting 60+% TS%. That is devastatingly good.

Mullin was past his prime (Indiana) and before his prime (GSW 2nd year 1987) in his other playoff appearances.

The teams he played against were Magic's Lakers, D-Rob's Spurs, the Suns, the Stockton & Malone Jazz and Barkley's Suns. All big competition. Oh and a young Sonics team. They were good but not great yet. Impressive.

[Moranis]

Love the Roy and Mullin picks.

Surprised Mo went with Amare, particularly next to Pau.  Not that they're not amazing players, but I feel I usually have a better handle on Moranis' thinking.

Big versatile talent. Generally my theme in these things, but a bit more pronounced early in this because of the dearth of true greats.

[Who]

M Gasol is another one with multiple iterations. Do you take the perimeter shooting Gasol with more scoring and less rebounding, or so you take interior DPOY Gasol?

A good problem to have. Essentially have access to two different players depending on who you fill the rest of the roster with

Yeah, I think I can decide later. I'm leaning towards the latter (defensive). In his DPOY year, he shot 178 times from 16-24 feet and hit them at a 49% clip. He was 43% from 20-24 feet albeit at a smaller but still meaningful sample size (35).

Maybe that doesn't quite get the credit in this format but if we are making arguments for players from the 1970s and 1980s, I have no issue making that argument for Marc Gasol. It's not like he suddenly learned how to shoot in 2016. He could always hit those shots, he was just never really asked to. If he took half a step backwards, he would have still hit them. It's the KG issue. I would go to the mat arguing that KG would've been a three-point shooter if he played today, and I'd do the same for Marc Gasol.

But we'll see. Even in his Toronto years, he was an incredible defender. I'm actually not sure there's much change in his capabilities over the course of the decade -- he could always shoot, pass, rebound, defend. He was just asked to accentuate different skills depending on what the team needed at the time. That's the Marc Gasol I'm signing up for.

Yes, I think so too. That some of these players would have developed 3s quicker and earlier in their careers if they were starting over in today's era.

So a guy like Marc Gasol who added a three at 32 probably gets it in his mid-20s now. Maybe younger. Same for a guy (who is ineligible) like Magic Johnson. He developed a three late in his career but would probably have gotten it sooner if he played today.

More recent players like M Gasol probably get punished a bit relative to the older guys (70s, 80s guys) in not getting the same consideration for how their range & ability to shoot 3s would be trained more if they came along a few years later and had it prioritized at an earlier point in their careers.

I would and do consider M Gasol a three point threat during his DPOY campaign.

[Kernewek]

You know who (entirely counter-intuitively) has essentially no evidence of being able to develop a three point shot?

Bernard King. Which is insane, like “kern has no eyes and one brain cell that’s going to die of loneliness” but watch the footage and look at the numbers.

Baby Gasol being gone makes me sad.

[Who]

Here is a quote from an article about B King

It seemed nearly impossible to stop Bernard King from scoring. He either bulldozed his way into the paint or pulled up for a patented fall-away jumper. So to further the odds in a defender feeling helpless, the former Warriors forward spent each offseason adding an extra move.

So even if he cemented himself as a bruising forward and dependable jump shooter en route to a Hall of Fame career, King argued he would have made the necessary requirements to thrive had he played in the modern NBA.

“My process would’ve been the same,” King told Bay Area News Group. “When I entered the NBA, I didn’t have a jump shot beyond 15 to 17 feet. I expanded that. I wasn’t able to handle the ball on the open floor when I first entered the NBA. I evolved as a player. By the time I left the game, they said I had the best mid-range shot in the game. I developed every single year.”

Therefore, King said “it would not have been a problem whatsoever” to develop a 3-point shot. After all, King often spent time in the gym diversifying his scoring by using unconventional methods. He took shots with his eyes closed to prepare himself against big men that held a size advantage in height and wingspan. He practiced shots one-handed so he could make off-balance shots. He also took shots falling down so he could still score after drawing contact.

“My game was well thought out,” King said. “I was an analytical player. I didn’t believe what was creative. So I became an analytical player.”

Similar to the Marc Gasol discussion. King was a gym rat. He just would have been training on other things if he came along today versus the 1970s. He would have a much more developed outside jump-shot at an earlier age. So too would M Gasol if he came along 10yrs later than he did.

I think King would have a playing style more similar to Melo (power 3, post play, midpost, off dribble, slasher, shooter) if he came along today albeit with better shot selection and overall scoring efficiency. Less reliance on the low post. He'd master that midrange game much earlier. He'd develop a good 3 point shot. He'd be a lethal scorer from all over the court.

[Who]

Here are some stories about King's practice habits

Pete Newell

After playing only 19 games in Utah, where he also suffered a badly sprained ankle, King got his career back together during the summer of 1980 in Los Angeles. He was named MVP of the L.A. Summer League, and then so impressed Warrior talent consultant Pete Newell at his pro summer camp that Newell recommended King highly to Golden State. 

“I was a little leery of taking King into camp at first,” recalled Newell, who is now a member of the long list of King boosters, “but once he got to camp, I couldn’t believe how tirelessly he worked. At one point, he hurt his foot, and even though he couldn’t play, he sat on the sidelines with a yellow pad taking notes.”

“Bernard turned the Warriors franchise around. We went from 24 wins in ’80 to a winning record in ’82, the year Bernard became a starter.” — Pete Newell

Al Attles

Attles came down to watch some of his rookies in Newell’s practice sessions and was so impressed, he actively began to pursue the trade which eventually brought King to Golden State. “Some players will give you 100 percent in a game,” Attles marveled, “but Bernard gives that kind of the output every time he practices, and that’s amazing.”

“I’ve never been one to go on past reputations,” said Attles. “I deal with a guy on how he treats me. That’s it. But I’ll be honest with you. If you had told me before the season that [name] would be the problem, I’d have laughed. I figured [name]  would be a stabilizing force.”

But [name], who missed six games, three plane flights, and at least 16 practices for what he said were “contractual problems,” became the enigma. Ironically, King emerged as the stabilizing force—the quiet leader who led a group which included four rookies, by example. 

“perhaps the best practice player I’ve ever seen, “ says Warrior coach Al Attles

Hubie Brown

"The key was his preparation," said former Knicks coach and ESPN analyst Hubie Brown. "Already in college he was the greatest practice player in the history of Tennessee basketball. He carried that work ethic over to the NBA. His game was 20 feet and down, and he got it to perfection."

On his practice habits and shooting habits

Part of that preparation included practicing thousands of shots from what King called his "sweet spots." In the half court, he identified three points along the baseline out to the sideline, then extended an imaginary line from a halfway point up the lane to the sideline with three more, then three more extended from the foul line to the sideline. He did the same on the other side of the lane.

Within the lane he identified four spots from the rim to the top of the key. These 22 spots, all within 18 feet of the basket, created a matrix of areas from which he felt supremely confident he could score. If a team tried to deny him the ball on offense, he would move from one sweet spot to another.

"I was not the most creative player," King said. "I thought the game out. I was an analytical player. So I developed this and that's how I shot over 50 percent for my career. That's efficiency."

Brown, who coached King in his prime, said everything he tried on offense was an attempt to get King to those high-percentage shots.

"Bernard was a great team player," Brown said. "We had a number of sets and plays within those sets just to get him those high-percentage shots. We had all kinds of plays for him. But he was the catalyst to our offense."

I was amazed at how many of his coaches and teammates said this about him. His teammates loved him. Which I was surprised by given how much he shot the ball. Legitimately just in awe of his work ethic and his unselfishness. Not in terms of passing but in terms of focus on the team at all times and not himself.

[gouki88]

I reckon King probably could have developed such a shot, but it might have detracted from his effectiveness in taking full advantage of his best strengths. My mind jumps to someone like DeMar DeRozan, who has averaged 26/5/5 on 50% from the field, whilst generating a bunch of free throw attempts too. I think King would be better due to his better foul-drawing, but that’s the kind of game I would see him having in todays league.

Lots of midrange attempts, crafty use of dribble moves, lots of attacking the defence inside the paint, pressuring them with fouls. I like King more, and think his playoff performances in NYK show why he’s a better player, but I think that’s his offensive game.

I love the amount of fouls your duo will generate. Both capable of 10+ a night

[Who]

Some of King's rivals

Bird

No less a basketball personage than Larry Bird, the winged Celt, says: ''I don't understand how Bernard does it. He's in heavy traffic - guys all over banging him and waving their arms - and he gets the shot off, not just any shot, but the shot he wants, and he cans it. Time after time. He's the best scorer I've ever seen or played against.''

“Bernard King… is the best forward in the league, hands down”.  – Larry Bird

Doc

“Bernard King was the toughest matchup of my career. And I say that from the heart.” – Julius Erving [HOF 1993]

Nique

“I have never feared anybody that I’ve played against – Bird, Magic, Doctor, Michael – and I respect and love all of those guys… Bernard King is the only guy that ever scared the hell out of me.”  – Dominique Wilkins [HOF 2006]

I remember Nique telling a funny story in an interview about Bernard King. He said he no hope of ever stopping him. Eventually he just gave up on the idea. He decided the only way to compete with King was to try and keep up with him scoring wise. He couldn't slow him. He could only hope to keep pace with him. That was Nique's defensive strategy!

A story from Bob Ryan

“Game 5, 1985, Pistons vs. Knicks. Hubie Brown vs. Chuck Daly. Game 1 at Silverdome. Hubie Brown called Bernard King's number, power right, 13 times in the first quarter, 13 consecutive times, and he got 22 points out of it. Any discussion of great scorers in history, we have to make an allowance for that moment, the window for Bernard King.” - Bob Ryan, The BS Podcast

They knew what was coming. They just couldn't stop it.

[Who]

I liked this short video (11min) on David Thompson

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rZdweCumxKM

A bunch of guys commending on him. One of those NBA legends talk about Player X videos. MJ talking about D Thompson. Bill Walton talking about competing against him in college. Good video.

[Moranis]

I was stumped by what to do with King. He played in just 28 playoff games and the last 8 he wasn't a full time starter (started 5).  I also don't know as confidently as someone like English that he would have developed a plus 3 point shot.  I think a better version of DeRozan is fair and Demar doesn't shoot the 3.  King's value where he was picked is solid (I had him late 1st/early 2nd), I just don't know that he is better than English or a couple other guys yet to be drafted from that era. Even his 33 ppg year, the Knicks were awful and he played just 55 games.  I don't think you can take that year and his other years don't compare all that well to the peak of English, McGrady, Carter, etc. (The grreat Washington year he played just 64 games and was no where near the same player physically).

[theswitch]

I was stumped by what to do with King. He played in just 28 playoff games and the last 8 he wasn't a full time starter (started 5).  I also don't know as confidently as someone like English that he would have developed a plus 3 point shot.  I think a better version of DeRozan is fair and Demar doesn't shoot the 3.  King's value where he was picked is solid (I had him late 1st/early 2nd), I just don't know that he is better than English or a couple other guys yet to be drafted from that era. Even his 33 ppg year, the Knicks were awful and he played just 55 games.  I don't think you can take that year and his other years don't compare all that well to the peak of English, McGrady, Carter, etc. (The grreat Washington year he played just 64 games and was no where near the same player physically).

I would've thought you'd take the year before (1983-1984). That year he was far more efficient -- 57% field goal percentage which is ridiculous -- scoring 26 points on 18 shots compared to chucking up 24 shots a game the big PPG year. That year, he took the Celtics to 7 games in the semi-finals averaging 29 per game on 54.5% shooting. He lost to Larry Bird, Robert Parish, and a handful of interesting names for this draft. That team of course won a championship.

That year feels like a cool combination of team success and individual efficiency rather than chasing the big points per game.

[Who]

I was stumped by what to do with King. He played in just 28 playoff games and the last 8 he wasn't a full time starter (started 5).  I also don't know as confidently as someone like English that he would have developed a plus 3 point shot.  I think a better version of DeRozan is fair and Demar doesn't shoot the 3.  King's value where he was picked is solid (I had him late 1st/early 2nd), I just don't know that he is better than English or a couple other guys yet to be drafted from that era. Even his 33 ppg year, the Knicks were awful and he played just 55 games.  I don't think you can take that year and his other years don't compare all that well to the peak of English, McGrady, Carter, etc. (The grreat Washington year he played just 64 games and was no where near the same player physically).

I would've thought you'd take the year before (1983-1984). That year he was far more efficient -- 57% field goal percentage which is ridiculous -- scoring 26 points on 18 shots compared to chucking up 24 shots a game the big PPG year. That year, he took the Celtics to 7 games in the semi-finals averaging 29 per game on 54.5% shooting. He lost to Larry Bird, Robert Parish, and a handful of interesting names for this draft. That team of course won a championship.

That year feels like a cool combination of team success and individual efficiency rather than chasing the big points per game.

Yeah, it's a short peak. Two and a half seasons in NY. Two good years in GSW before that (All-Star years) but not the same level as NY (All-NBA 1st team twice).

Two playoff runs in his two full seasons. Both times advancing out of the first round. Both times playing a top quality opponent in the 2nd round and playing them tough. Bird and the Celtics in 1984. Philly and Doc in 1983. They got swept by Doc's team but the games were good. All close games except for the first one when King got hurt in the first half and couldn't play 2nd half. Both of his opponents would go on the to win the title. And King had nowhere near the supporting cast around him that either Doc or Bird had.

B King came 2nd in MVP in 1984 to Bird in the media vote. However, in the player's vote, King actually finished 1st for MVP ahead of Bird. Now I would've given it to Bird but it gives you an idea of King's standing in the league at that time. Both among the media and also among the players.

I like the Washington years with King. I feel it gives you a glimpse into how he would play in today's game more so than his peak years in NYC in terms of style of play as opposed to impact. Take the same style of play and give him back his athleticism and his impact would be greatly improved. But those Washington years, more of a face up player. More midrange than low post. More outside shooting (long twos). Excellent movement off the ball coming off of screens. So give him his athleticism back and some of those midrangers and long 2s turn into driving finishes at the rim and his FG% climbs back up again.

[Who]

One of the criticisms I came across elsewhere about King was the type of offense NY used.

When I was reading up on him, I was surprised to find out that King was actually worried about the offense when he first went to NY. He had never played in a structured offense like that before where everything is scripted. He had always played in freelancing offenses and found his scoring in the flow of the game. He was worried how he would fare in Hubie's heavily structured style of play.

As King said himself, turns out he adapted just fine. He could score in a structured system just as easily as a read and react system. He was able to find opportunities within the structure.

There was also an interesting story about him at the end of one of those games in the Pistons series in 1984. Game on the line. Timeout. Coach draws up a play. He draws it up for someone else other than King. I forget who. King forcefully asks does he have permission to go himself if he sees the opportunity, coach gives unclear response, King asks again, as he says himself essentially for permission to break the coach's play, and Hubie says yes you do. King breaks the play. Scores the bucket. Either wins the game or sends it to OT. I can't remember. The most interesting part was King saying this was the first time he would break the coach's play and he asked permission to do it first. He said he wouldn't have done it if Hubie didn't give him permission. That is how much he followed team orders. Team orientated.

It is a strange mix of high volume shooting low volume passing + team orientated mindset / loved by coaches / loved by his teammates. Almost all these high volume scorers are guys who will break plays, call their own number often too much. They are admired for their skill but not necessarily for being a great teammate. King was loved for being a great teammate.

I was watching an interview a few months ago with King, Hubie and 2-3 of his teammates from that 1984 Knicks team that lost to Boston. They genuinely loved playing with him. They loved his team spirit, his warrior mentality, his work ethic. King was almost shying away from the praise they were giving him. It was making him uncomfortable. It was more like he just wanted to fit in and be part of the team. Brilliant at what he does but just wanting to be part of the team. Unusual mentality.

There is some quote somewhere. I forget where it is. King was told he just shattered the highest scoring 5 game series playoff record. He didn't care. It didn't matter. The only thing that mattered to him was that they won the series and were moving on to the next round.

[RPGenerate]

Is it possible we could start having each player's updated team on the first page?