2023 CS Historic Draft Thread - Results in OP!

[RPGenerate]

T-Mac was in a pretty terrible situation with Orlando. Those teams were putrid, with a young Mike Miller and Darrell Armstrong being his best teammates. In a traditional historical draft, would I dock major points for not being able to lift his team higher? Sure, but this draft with much less overall high end talent. Getting a guy that does have that sort of all-time talent is very valuable to me, even if he has some weak points. I think his Houston time shows that he could play with better teammates and fit in a system.

... and still fail to win a playoff series

Sure, but there is a line between team success and player success, right? Whether it's thin or thick, the line is there. But I hear you, it's not a good look. And again, I pick Grant Hill or Dwight Howard if I had the first pick, personally. But nonetheless, I stress again that I think all-time great talent is worth taking, warts and all, in a draft where it is very limited.

[RPGenerate]

One of the interesting things about this draft is that all of these guys got flaws. None of them are as well-rounded as the usual guys we get in these Historical Drafts.

My guy Zo for instance can't pass the ball. So I can't run the offense through him in the block. It was a problem for Miami throughout his time there. Their offense would stutter and stagnate because Zo couldn't handle double teams down on the box. He is an okay passer in the high post but a miserable passer in the low post out of double teams. It was his biggest flaw that held him back relative to other top centers of both his era and all-time.

The same is true for T-Mac, G-Hill, Webber, Dwight, Pau, Sheed ... and so on. All have some variety of flaws. And the guys that are coming in future rounds will have even bigger flaws (defense, selfishness, shooting range, passing, rebounding) than the guys taken so far.

This is what will make team composition so interesting. How you create some balance & teamwork around the various flaws of these guys.

You didn't specifically mention Moncrief, so I'm gonna assume you think that he doesn't have any flaws 

[Moranis]

I will say, I think it's a bit unfair to use the Pitino quote against T-Mac. What a player says ten years after his career is over doesn't mean much to me.

Sure, but as I said in those threads that quote kind of confirms what I've always thought of TMac i.e. an uber talented player that was selfish and never put the work in to be as great as he could have been.  Whenever it got tough, he bailed, and he never won a single playoff series.  How does someone that talented end up with talent resume.  If he had the desire of the all time greats, he'd have been one, instead of just another guy in the HOF.

How can you forget his epic contributions to the Spurs Finals team?  If Ray Allen doesn't hit a clutch shot, TMac has a ring, haha.

I mentioned his 31 minutes over 6 games on the prior page. 

[smokeablount]

I will say, I think it's a bit unfair to use the Pitino quote against T-Mac. What a player says ten years after his career is over doesn't mean much to me.

Sure, but as I said in those threads that quote kind of confirms what I've always thought of TMac i.e. an uber talented player that was selfish and never put the work in to be as great as he could have been.  Whenever it got tough, he bailed, and he never won a single playoff series.  How does someone that talented end up with talent resume.  If he had the desire of the all time greats, he'd have been one, instead of just another guy in the HOF.

How can you forget his epic contributions to the Spurs Finals team?  If Ray Allen doesn't hit a clutch shot, TMac has a ring, haha.

I mentioned his 31 minutes over 6 games on the prior page.

Good thing I’ll be picking his 02-03 season.

You know, when his BPM was the 2nd highest season since 1973-74, behind only Curry in 15-16, the season he was the NBA’s 1st/only unanimous MVP.

[Donoghus]

One of the interesting things about this draft is that all of these guys got flaws. None of them are as well-rounded as the usual guys we get in these Historical Drafts.

My guy Zo for instance can't pass the ball. So I can't run the offense through him in the block. It was a problem for Miami throughout his time there. Their offense would stutter and stagnate because Zo couldn't handle double teams down on the box. He is an okay passer in the high post but a miserable passer in the low post out of double teams. It was his biggest flaw that held him back relative to other top centers of both his era and all-time.

The same is true for T-Mac, G-Hill, Webber, Dwight, Pau, Sheed ... and so on. All have some variety of flaws. And the guys that are coming in future rounds will have even bigger flaws (defense, selfishness, shooting range, passing, rebounding) than the guys taken so far.

This is what will make team composition so interesting. How you create some balance & teamwork around the various flaws of these guys.

You didn't specifically mention Moncrief, so I'm gonna assume you think that he doesn't have any flaws 

As someone who has been the biggest Moncrief advocate on these boards (along with Roy), I wholeheartedly agree with this

[Roy H.]

One of the interesting things about this draft is that all of these guys got flaws. None of them are as well-rounded as the usual guys we get in these Historical Drafts.

My guy Zo for instance can't pass the ball. So I can't run the offense through him in the block. It was a problem for Miami throughout his time there. Their offense would stutter and stagnate because Zo couldn't handle double teams down on the box. He is an okay passer in the high post but a miserable passer in the low post out of double teams. It was his biggest flaw that held him back relative to other top centers of both his era and all-time.

The same is true for T-Mac, G-Hill, Webber, Dwight, Pau, Sheed ... and so on. All have some variety of flaws. And the guys that are coming in future rounds will have even bigger flaws (defense, selfishness, shooting range, passing, rebounding) than the guys taken so far.

This is what will make team composition so interesting. How you create some balance & teamwork around the various flaws of these guys.

You didn't specifically mention Moncrief, so I'm gonna assume you think that he doesn't have any flaws 

As someone who has been the biggest Moncrief advocate on these boards (along with Roy), I wholeheartedly agree with this

Yep.  I was surprised to see him go in the first round, not because he isn't worthy, but because he's so criminally underrated by a lot of today's younger fans. He has generally been a value pick in the drafts.

[Roy H.]

Vince Carter is such an interesting guy to me.  He's a great example of "youth is wasted on the young".  If you put 37 year old Carter's brain in 23 year old Vince's body, he'd have ruled the NBA.

He is one of the last guys who I would have thought would turn into an ideal veteran presence on a team, but he evolved into a great teammate and leader.

[RPGenerate]

I made sure to do my research for this draft, and I came away with thinking that Moncrief was one of the best players in this draft. Tenacious defender that won two DPoYs as a guard? Check. Efficient 20+pt scorer? Check. Could play with other ball dominant players on a great team? Check. Team first mindset with bulldog mentality on defense? Check.

Got these quotes from wikipedia:

Among Moncrief's admirers was All-Star Michael Jordan who once described his on-court intensity to an L.A. Times reporter: "When you play against Moncrief, you're in for a night of all-around basketball. He'll hound you everywhere you go, both ends of the court. You just expect it."[35]

Another all-time great, Larry Bird, heralded Moncrief’s ability to defend anyone, and said that “Moncrief does everything you’re supposed to do on defense and doesn’t take any shortcuts, plus he does it every night.”

He and Dwight were the two biggest snubs from the 75th anniversary list. You drop those 80s Bucks into the 90s, and I think they win a championship.

[Who]

Vince Carter is such an interesting guy to me.  He's a great example of "youth is wasted on the young".  If you put 37 year old Carter's brain in 23 year old Vince's body, he'd have ruled the NBA.

He is one of the last guys who I would have thought would turn into an ideal veteran presence on a team, but he evolved into a great teammate and leader.

I thought his best years were in Toronto. It was the middle years in New Jersey that I felt he wasted playing at about 80% effort. He still liked to score but he didn't try much on defense anymore.

I thought Vince was great in 2000 and 2001. It was either 2002 or 2003 when he started dogging it. Got fed up with the old declining team that was around him. Started mailing it in. Revitalized some in NJ but never to the same level as early on in 2000 or 2001. Fell off a cliff in 2009 in Orlando. Wasted his prime.

[Kernewek]

Moncreif, for me, is one of those guys who is very good but does what other guys do as well. In the same way Alonzo over Dwight is surprising but to a degree it’s a much of a muchness… or the same way C Webb and Pau aren’t the same, but have a few similar strengths. So I like him, but had he fallen I don’t think I would have gone for him (unlike Webber or Pau, who would have been the other half of the front court for my opening picks had they dropped).

[theswitch]

Moncreif, for me, is one of those guys who is very good but does what other guys do as well. In the same way Alonzo over Dwight is surprising but to a degree it’s a much of a muchness… or the same way C Webb and Pau aren’t the same, but have a few similar strengths. So I like him, but had he fallen I don’t think I would have gone for him (unlike Webber or Pau, who would have been the other half of the front court for my opening picks had they dropped).

I'm excited to see who his pair is. I really liked Moncrief but my perception was he needed an Alpha. Someone you can just give the ball and trust they can probably score on anymore. Moncrief feels like he's close to that guy but not quite that guy offensively. But there are still guys like that out there. Moncrief can do it all and fit with all.

[Moranis]

I will say, I think it's a bit unfair to use the Pitino quote against T-Mac. What a player says ten years after his career is over doesn't mean much to me.

Sure, but as I said in those threads that quote kind of confirms what I've always thought of TMac i.e. an uber talented player that was selfish and never put the work in to be as great as he could have been.  Whenever it got tough, he bailed, and he never won a single playoff series.  How does someone that talented end up with talent resume.  If he had the desire of the all time greats, he'd have been one, instead of just another guy in the HOF.

How can you forget his epic contributions to the Spurs Finals team?  If Ray Allen doesn't hit a clutch shot, TMac has a ring, haha.

I mentioned his 31 minutes over 6 games on the prior page.

Good thing I’ll be picking his 02-03 season.

You know, when his BPM was the 2nd highest season since 1973-74, behind only Curry in 15-16, the season he was the NBA’s 1st/only unanimous MVP.

Sure and his team won 42 games and was better when he was on the bench in the playoffs.

[Moranis]

Moncrief didn't strike me as a 1st round pick, but like Pau can be slotted into virtually any lineup and be successful.

[Roy H.]

I will say, I think it's a bit unfair to use the Pitino quote against T-Mac. What a player says ten years after his career is over doesn't mean much to me.

Sure, but as I said in those threads that quote kind of confirms what I've always thought of TMac i.e. an uber talented player that was selfish and never put the work in to be as great as he could have been.  Whenever it got tough, he bailed, and he never won a single playoff series.  How does someone that talented end up with talent resume.  If he had the desire of the all time greats, he'd have been one, instead of just another guy in the HOF.

How can you forget his epic contributions to the Spurs Finals team?  If Ray Allen doesn't hit a clutch shot, TMac has a ring, haha.

I mentioned his 31 minutes over 6 games on the prior page.

Good thing I’ll be picking his 02-03 season.

You know, when his BPM was the 2nd highest season since 1973-74, behind only Curry in 15-16, the season he was the NBA’s 1st/only unanimous MVP.

Is BPM meaningful?

[Who]

I had Moncrief as an early to mid 2nd. Not much difference. I like him a lot but my main memories of him are him being outplayed by another SG in the 80s who is one of my favourite players of All-Time. I do not expect that SG to get drafted for awhile yet. I'll mention it again when he does. Love that guy. Killer. Absolute killer.