Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[angryguy77]

The premise that he couldn?t show that he was a good coach until the playoffs is silly. They crushed the competition this regular season (similar to the playoffs), and the loud minority didn?t want to give him credit.

The premise that a rookie coach couldn?t improve was also silly.

A thread going on 170 pages is prob the silliest aspect of this.

The premise that he needed to learn how to properly take a TO was silly. He was failing at some basic things, yet supported by many here.
He is doing a better job for the most part, but he is also playing with a stacked team.

He is improving and I hope he continues to get better, but he's still very much capable of pulling a boner like leaving a gimpy KP in for too long.

I need a larger sample size before doing a 180 on him.
I will say I'm liking his interactions with the media after the game. I loved how he asked "were there any finals with 2 Christians coaching" to the reporter who asked about his thoughts on 2 black coaches meeting. They didn't know what to say

To the bolded, I think at this point it's fair to ask if you have a problem with your reading comprehension.

He left his guys on an island many times last year while leads faded. He's been slow at times this season, but way better. This should've never have been an issue. The team has responded well after his TO's in these playoffs, but well just pretend none of this was a subject the last 2 years.

[bdm860]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

I think it's always hard to judge coaches as a fan (and always surprised we have so many experts here, lol).  The easiest coaching barometer for me is "does the team exceed or fall short of expectations."

For this I have to give Ime credit.  I didn't see the 2022 team as anywhere close to the Finals.  I didn't see this year's Houston team as .500.  So Ime is 2 for 2 in exceeding my expectations.

As for Joe, I can't really hate on others for disliking him, at least initially.  Even if he's a Michelin star meal, he was basically delivered to us all in a garbage can.  Not very appealing.

[smicker16]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

I don?t think either of them are great coaches or a top five coach and in the NBA I really don?t think the difference between the 8th best coach and 17th best coach moves the needle that much. The players make the difference in my opinion.

They are both probably in the 10-20 range which is fine really. The only thing that I wish people gave Joe credit for is he had to come in a year last minute after losing like three assistant coaches with a new roster. Yet people make it seem like he came in to a great situation. And then this year yes talent was great but again had huge roster turnover and some of it (Jrue) happened extremely late in the offseason.

We also ignore the fact that Ime came in to a much better team in 2022 compared to 2021 yet make it seem like he was the only reason they got better and ignore the talent increase there. It just seems like we do not hold them both to the same standard.

But again I don?t think Joe is a top 5-10 coach but he is fine and coaching is really not my worry in the NBA as star players matter so much compared to other sports.

[Moranis]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

2021 Boston had the worst talent of any team in the Brown era.  They also had the most players injured.  It is an abnormal season and not a true gauge.  Even Tatum missed 8 games (they were 2-6 without him), but Brown missed 14 (and then the playoffs), Smart missed 24, kemba 29. They had Fournier for 16 games. Kemba got hurt again in the playoffs and so did Langford.  The roster was a mess and the injuries piled up.  With better health that team is likely much closer to the 48-24 ECF team of the prior season. 

Stevens moved to the front office and dumped Kemba for Al, giving the team a much better balance. He brought in Schroder and Richardson and then moved on from them for White at the deadline (they were 20-6 with White).  The team was healthier on the whole (even Rob was mostly healthy).

If there was a culture change it was Stevens remaking the roster and undoing Ainge's mistakes. 

[SHAQATTACK]

Never forget

Brad is THE ?Puppet Master .?

[Roy H.]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

2021 Boston had the worst talent of any team in the Brown era.  They also had the most players injured.  It is an abnormal season and not a true gauge.  Even Tatum missed 8 games (they were 2-6 without him), but Brown missed 14 (and then the playoffs), Smart missed 24, kemba 29. They had Fournier for 16 games. Kemba got hurt again in the playoffs and so did Langford.  The roster was a mess and the injuries piled up.  With better health that team is likely much closer to the 48-24 ECF team of the prior season. 

Stevens moved to the front office and dumped Kemba for Al, giving the team a much better balance. He brought in Schroder and Richardson and then moved on from them for White at the deadline (they were 20-6 with White).  The team was healthier on the whole (even Rob was mostly healthy).

If there was a culture change it was Stevens remaking the roster and undoing Ainge's mistakes.

Wouldn't JB being injured help the team, not hurt it?  I thought he didn't contribute to winning?

Brad Stevens himself has admitted that he was burnt out on coaching and lost control of the team.  And, that malaise continued into the first part of 2022, until Ime had fully implemented his system and got the players to buy in.  There are literally dozens of articles out there about this.

[Moranis]

It is much easier to lose control when the players are injured and the roster isn't very good.  Had the team been healthier and the roster better, 2021 would have turned out differently.  (2020 was a year the team was actually better with Brown in the game - the numbers reflect that).

Heck had Middleton not gotten hurt, Boston likely loses in the 2nd round with Ime and we aren't having this conversation at all.

[SparzWizard]

I swear if the Celtics lose this series then Joe needs to go.

First not taking KP out of game early when showing signs of limping, both times. Then he said there's "no concern" to his Game 2 injury, but now today he said KP's injury is "very serious".

Don't even wanna get into his coaching problems. This is frustrating.

[Roy H.]

I swear if the Celtics lose this series then Joe needs to go.

First not taking KP out of game early when showing signs of limping, both times. Then he said there's "no concern" to his Game 2 injury, but now today he said KP's injury is "very serious".

Don't even wanna get into his coaching problems. This is frustrating.

There's no indication that the second injury was caused by staying in the game too long, but I truly don't understand Joe's thought process there.  Out of every player on the roster, why would you *ever* let KP play through a leg injury?  Let alone twice, after seeing that decision majorly burn you the first time?

[Sketch5]

I swear if the Celtics lose this series then Joe needs to go.

First not taking KP out of game early when showing signs of limping, both times. Then he said there's "no concern" to his Game 2 injury, but now today he said KP's injury is "very serious".

Don't even wanna get into his coaching problems. This is frustrating.

There's no indication that the second injury was caused by staying in the game too long, but I truly don't understand Joe's thought process there.  Out of every player on the roster, why would you *ever* let KP play through a leg injury?  Let alone twice, after seeing that decision majorly burn you the first time?

From what I've read its a fluke injury, not many people have had it.

[Goldstar88]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

Stevens went to the ECF with Tatum, Brown, and Smart during the 2019-20 season. They lost to the Heat in 6 games. The next year they tuned Brad out, which was the year before Ime took over. The team was already having success before Udoka arrived. They had one bad year in between. Udoka was also out coached in the playoffs every round after the first one. It was a miracle they got past Miami before being embarrassed in the Finals.

[Roy H.]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

Stevens went to the ECF with Tatum, Brown, and Smart during the 2019-20 season. They lost to the Heat in 6 games. The next year they tuned Brad out, which was the year before Ime took over. The team was already having success before Udoka arrived. They had one bad year in between. Udoka was also out coached in the playoffs every round after the first one. It was a miracle they got past Miami before being embarrassed in the Finals.

Lol.  Well, if we were embarrassed in the Finals that's because it was the series Joe prepared the team for.

[Kernewek]

It's also a weird 1:1 because Mazz was on the staff in 2022 and was at least in some way one of the architects of Udoka's D - we heard it, from White earlier this year and, of course, we heard the same thing from from Brogdon, though that was before the post-season and before Brogdon's much more publicised 'our defence is bad' complaints.

Either way, though, even if last season's Mazz was one missed three away from matching Udoka's record he was never going to measure up to the narrative of the prior season: making a Cinderella run to the Finals and losing due to a combination of injuries and daring Steph Curry to beat you by playing drop coverage on him.

My point is that for every "Mazz had a better roster the team should have been better" there is an alternative equally true point "that he doesn't get enough credit for guiding the team to 57 wins on short notice alongside a reduced coaching staff of his former peers, some of whom left without being replaced". The truth is six in one hand, half a dozen in the other.

[SHAQATTACK]

I swear if the Celtics lose this series then Joe needs to go.

First not taking KP out of game early when showing signs of limping, both times. Then he said there's "no concern" to his Game 2 injury, but now today he said KP's injury is "very serious".

Don't even wanna get into his coaching problems. This is frustrating.

There's no indication that the second injury was caused by staying in the game too long, but I truly don't understand Joe's thought process there.  Out of every player on the roster, why would you *ever* let KP play through a leg injury?  Let alone twice, after seeing that decision majorly burn you the first time?

From what I've read its a fluke injury, not many people have had it.

It was a new one for me ,  my wife said it was uncommon 35 yrs as PT.  She shook her head , like is he assembled with duck tape. 

I think if I were in his shoes ?I?d demand to,play ?..I remember Birds back pain and McHales legs so bad he could barely walk . 


Go all out , there is no more tomorrow?.maybe never another year for him, 

[tenn_smoothie]

I?ve been critical of Joe at times but I don?t really have much of anything to be critical of right now. Might have been wrong on him.

TP for willing to change your mind based on evidence. I?m wondering how many others will be as honest next week, though I think most critics will turtle, as they do.

How many people are in here actively posting about how bad Joe is during these playoffs?  I think people had legit concerns after last year's playoffs, which couldn't be answered until this year's post-season.  Once everyone saw that the team is playing quite well under Joe, they have quit calling for his head.

Several things are true, from my perspective:

1.  Joe was an actively bad coach last year, particularly in the playoffs;

2.  Player publicly complained about the lack of emphasis on defense;

3.  We lost multiple games that we should have won, and coaching played into that, as the team often looked unprepared and Joe was slow with adjustments;

4.  Adding Lee and Cassell helped this season;

5.  Joe has showed coaching growth and less stubbornness;

6.  Joe's strengths lie in motivation and preparation; his weaknesses are in-game management, making adjustments in-game, and play-calling (which hasn't been a problem in the playoffs);

7.  Joe coached poorly in Game 2 against Miami; in other games, he has ranged from average to good.

8.  Joe isn't a "great" coach, but he's got the team to buy-in and trust him.  He's no longer an impediment to winning.

9.  It would be silly to fire Joe, but I also wouldn't sign him to an extension.

10.  (And just because...) I'd still rather have Ime. 

You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.