Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[BudweiserCeltic]

You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.

As I said, I am hardly alone in my opinion on Joe's offense and the way it leads to bad losses or blown leads. Sometimes we escape like Game 3 tonite due to our superior talent and our defense. But we win in spite of Joe's offense, not because of it.

Some similar opinions include:

Charles Barkley: Brings up the bad shot selection and stagnant offense the team falls into on a regular basis.

ESPN Tim Bontemps: That Boston still hasn't quite shaken all of its bad habits but still has enough talent to close out this series. The fourth quarter was a highlight reel of Boston's past issues -- poor offensive execution, lapses in concentration and overall head-scratching decision-making. But after giving up a 22-2 run that got Dallas back within a point, Boston was able to lock in defensively down the stretch. It was enough to move the Celtics one win away from an NBA-record 18th championship -- even if it became far more stressful than it should have been.

ESPN Brian Windhorst: The Celtics are finally over the hump, and they have one hand on banner No. 18. They had to survive their late-game demons. Boston has lost a handful of playoff games in this exact fashion over the past several years, and during that 20-2 run in the fourth quarter there was that old sick feeling. But the Celtics' stars all made a play or two -- and collectively, that was enough, mostly because they now have so many stars.

Almost everything you have in bold there is more of a reflection of what the players are doing than bad coaching.

Good Lord, offensive scheme and player decisions are a product of what the coach tells them to do and what is taught in practice.
Joe is not telling them to stop the one-on-one 3-point shooting. He has stated several times that he considers them to be good shots.

So every single coach we've had in the past 8 years or so have suffered from the same.

And actually, what I found funny that we had Tatum mic'd is that he himself was calling out the team for taking these shots you're complaining about, and he included himself in that. Only to go on and do it again during the game.

[tenn_smoothie]

I've blamed the players as well at times, calling Jaylen, Jayson and Joe , the dumb, dumber and dumbest trio.

Funny thing is that Mazzulla had them playing offense with a lot of off-the-ball movement and screening and quick ball movement the first half of his first season after being named interim. They were setting all sorts of offensive records (with no Porzingis or Holiday on the team) and I have no idea why the team stopped playing that way and why Joe let them. A coach is fully capable of dictating a team's offensive strategy, even in the NBA. If a player insists on going iso constantly, you sub him out. But Joe has stated that he wants a 3-point heavy offense including the shots off of iso-dribbles. That style of offense almost always gets the team in trouble and they lose big leads or lose games with it.

Ime's offense was just as bad, maybe worse and it cost us the title in 2022. I'd say Brad's offense had more creativity and movement, but by the time the team became talented enough to win big, they had tuned him out. I hated his small-ball, 3-point offense as well. What is it we have won the past 8 years with this style of play ? Joe is the coach now, so it is his job to correct it.

[celticsclay]

I was wrong about Joe and his ability to make adjustments in the playoffs. Perhaps even dead wrong. Have no problem admitting. Have loved this whole run.

[Neurotic Guy]

I've blamed the players as well at times, calling Jaylen, Jayson and Joe , the dumb, dumber and dumbest trio.

Funny thing is that Mazzulla had them playing offense with a lot of off-the-ball movement and screening and quick ball movement the first half of his first season after being named interim. They were setting all sorts of offensive records (with no Porzingis or Holiday on the team) and I have no idea why the team stopped playing that way and why Joe let them. A coach is fully capable of dictating a team's offensive strategy, even in the NBA. If a player insists on going iso constantly, you sub him out. But Joe has stated that he wants a 3-point heavy offense including the shots off of iso-dribbles. That style of offense almost always gets the team in trouble and they lose big leads or lose games with it.

Ime's offense was just as bad, maybe worse and it cost us the title in 2022. I'd say Brad's offense had more creativity and movement, but by the time the team became talented enough to win big, they had tuned him out. I hated his small-ball, 3-point offense as well. What is it we have won the past 8 years with this style of play ? Joe is the coach now, so it is his job to correct it.

They do lose leads, but as of this moment they are what, 79-20 for the year? They don?t lose much.  So if they played an offense you?d prefer I guess they?d be better?  I realize you?ve been saying this for a long time but they?re now on the verge - and in the last 8 years they might be the winningest team in the league - with 3(?) conference finals and 2 finals appearances. If they win one of the next 4 they are champions.  Who has had more success in the last 8 years?  GSW?  Anyone else?

[Kernewek]

You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.

As I said, I am hardly alone in my opinion on Joe's offense and the way it leads to bad losses or blown leads. Sometimes we escape like Game 3 tonite due to our superior talent and our defense. But we win in spite of Joe's offense, not because of it.

Some similar opinions include:

Charles Barkley: Brings up the bad shot selection and stagnant offense the team falls into on a regular basis.

ESPN Tim Bontemps: That Boston still hasn't quite shaken all of its bad habits but still has enough talent to close out this series. The fourth quarter was a highlight reel of Boston's past issues -- poor offensive execution, lapses in concentration and overall head-scratching decision-making. But after giving up a 22-2 run that got Dallas back within a point, Boston was able to lock in defensively down the stretch. It was enough to move the Celtics one win away from an NBA-record 18th championship -- even if it became far more stressful than it should have been.

ESPN Brian Windhorst: The Celtics are finally over the hump, and they have one hand on banner No. 18. They had to survive their late-game demons. Boston has lost a handful of playoff games in this exact fashion over the past several years, and during that 20-2 run in the fourth quarter there was that old sick feeling. But the Celtics' stars all made a play or two -- and collectively, that was enough, mostly because they now have so many stars.

I am not sure if you saw it but I posted a fairly long post with video examples showing why some of those shots are not actually 'bad shots' a couple of pages back. Happy to expand more on it if you'd like.

I would also like to say that the media narrative about the team's offensive performance is not necessarily rooted in the reality of the modern-day NBA, and is instead based on the contrast between the C's performance in the 2022 Finals - which was both dismal and the last enduring memory most NBA fans will have of the J&J era -  compared to their today.

[tenn_smoothie]

I've blamed the players as well at times, calling Jaylen, Jayson and Joe , the dumb, dumber and dumbest trio.

Funny thing is that Mazzulla had them playing offense with a lot of off-the-ball movement and screening and quick ball movement the first half of his first season after being named interim. They were setting all sorts of offensive records (with no Porzingis or Holiday on the team) and I have no idea why the team stopped playing that way and why Joe let them. A coach is fully capable of dictating a team's offensive strategy, even in the NBA. If a player insists on going iso constantly, you sub him out. But Joe has stated that he wants a 3-point heavy offense including the shots off of iso-dribbles. That style of offense almost always gets the team in trouble and they lose big leads or lose games with it.

Ime's offense was just as bad, maybe worse and it cost us the title in 2022. I'd say Brad's offense had more creativity and movement, but by the time the team became talented enough to win big, they had tuned him out. I hated his small-ball, 3-point offense as well. What is it we have won the past 8 years with this style of play ? Joe is the coach now, so it is his job to correct it.

They do lose leads, but as of this moment they are what, 79-20 for the year? They don?t lose much.  So if they played an offense you?d prefer I guess they?d be better?  I realize you?ve been saying this for a long time but they?re now on the verge - and in the last 8 years they might be the winningest team in the league - with 3(?) conference finals and 2 finals appearances. If they win one of the next 4 they are champions.  Who has had more success in the last 8 years?  GSW?  Anyone else?

Regular season success, yes.
Bad playoff losses, underachieving given their talent.
As for me talking about this for a long time, again, I'm not some lone voice.
Lots of CS members have been saying the same thing and the media and talking heads I mentioned have as well.

This year, I hate to say it, but there is some truth to the argument that we have had a relatively easy path thru the playoffs and we have gotten favorable matchups with hobbled teams instead of having to play New York, Denver or Minnesota. I do not think we would have beaten Denver.

Having said that, I'm ecstatic that we are one win from a title.
I'm hoping we can finish this on Friday - no use tempting fate.

[tenn_smoothie]

Kernewek, the videos were really good and interesting.
But are you saying that media members and former players who are critical of the offense are all out of touch and Joe's supporters on CS, many I would bet have limited experience in the game, are correct. The insurance salesman who maybe played in middle school knows more about basketball than Bob Ryan and Charles Barkley. (no slight intended, just trying to make a point)

Many of the clips showed players moving without the ball and pointing out how successful it was.
The vids mostly did not venture into the type of bad possessions I have issues with.
I don't necessarily have a problem with a catch & shoot, open 3-pointer.
I do have a problem with one of the J's catching and holding the ball at the 15 second point of the shot clock, then going into their back & forth dribble routine that ends with a contested fallway 3-point attempt while teammates stand around the perimeter like statues watching.

[Kernewek]

I don't think they're out of touch, or necessarily incorrect, but I do think the primary motivation is to contextualise the team's new success where they have previously failed, particularly in the finals.

This year, I hate to say it, but there is some truth to the argument that we have had a relatively easy path thru the playoffs and we have gotten favorable matchups with hobbled teams instead of having to play New York, Denver or Minnesota. I do not think we would have beaten Denver.

It's inarguable that the Celtics have had the easiest path through the playoffs since the 2023 Denver Nuggets, who beat the 8th, 4th, 7th, and 8th seeds on the way to a ring.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

I don't think they're out of touch, or necessarily incorrect, but I do think the primary motivation is to contextualise the team's new success where they have previously failed, particularly in the finals.

This year, I hate to say it, but there is some truth to the argument that we have had a relatively easy path thru the playoffs and we have gotten favorable matchups with hobbled teams instead of having to play New York, Denver or Minnesota. I do not think we would have beaten Denver.

It's inarguable that the Celtics have had the easiest path through the playoffs since the 2023 Denver Nuggets, who beat the 8th, 4th, 7th, and 8th seeds on the way to a ring.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

who cares?

not our problem.

as if we have never made it through tough teams before.

swept kyrie and KD,
have beaten jimmy and bam
have beaten embiid and harden.
have beaten giannis, jrue, and portis

all in the last 2 years in the playoffs
teams filled with good to great players.

nobody should feel bad and nobody apologize for anything this year. that is ludicrous if anybody is contemplating that.

The only team that should apologize and have their FAKE TITLE stripped is the FAKERS in the COVID BUBBLE.

[aefgogreen]

I don't think they're out of touch, or necessarily incorrect, but I do think the primary motivation is to contextualise the team's new success where they have previously failed, particularly in the finals.

This year, I hate to say it, but there is some truth to the argument that we have had a relatively easy path thru the playoffs and we have gotten favorable matchups with hobbled teams instead of having to play New York, Denver or Minnesota. I do not think we would have beaten Denver.

It's inarguable that the Celtics have had the easiest path through the playoffs since the 2023 Denver Nuggets, who beat the 8th, 4th, 7th, and 8th seeds on the way to a ring.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

who cares?

not our problem.

as if we have never made it through tough teams before.

swept kyrie and KD,
have beaten jimmy and bam
have beaten embiid and harden.
have beaten giannis, jrue, and portis

all in the last 2 years in the playoffs
teams filled with good to great players.

nobody should feel bad and nobody apologize for anything this year. that is ludicrous if anybody is contemplating that.

The only team that should apologize and have their FAKE TITLE stripped is the FAKERS in the COVID BUBBLE.

I don't think anyone should have to apologize for winning a title (including the Lakers, they played by the same rules as everyone else).  As for all the injuries...After we traded Smart, the narrative was that we weren't tough enough.  If that is the case, how did we manage going so deep into the playoffs for so long with few major injuries?  That our stars have remained healthy overall speaks to their durability, not the ease of our path.

[liam]

So Joe's gone, right after we win tonight? Right?


 

[Kernewek]

I don't think they're out of touch, or necessarily incorrect, but I do think the primary motivation is to contextualise the team's new success where they have previously failed, particularly in the finals.

This year, I hate to say it, but there is some truth to the argument that we have had a relatively easy path thru the playoffs and we have gotten favorable matchups with hobbled teams instead of having to play New York, Denver or Minnesota. I do not think we would have beaten Denver.

It's inarguable that the Celtics have had the easiest path through the playoffs since the 2023 Denver Nuggets, who beat the 8th, 4th, 7th, and 8th seeds on the way to a ring.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaand

who cares?

not our problem.

as if we have never made it through tough teams before.

swept kyrie and KD,
have beaten jimmy and bam
have beaten embiid and harden.
have beaten giannis, jrue, and portis

all in the last 2 years in the playoffs
teams filled with good to great players.

nobody should feel bad and nobody apologize for anything this year. that is ludicrous if anybody is contemplating that.

The only team that should apologize and have their FAKE TITLE stripped is the FAKERS in the COVID BUBBLE.

Well, yes, exactly.

[Roy H.]

So Joe's gone, right after we win tonight? Right?


 

After the 3rd quarter.

[Roy H.]

As has been mentioned, the single most important factor for an NBA coach is the buy-in of his players.  Ime had it.  Joe seemed to be lacking it last season, based upon the comments of a few players during and after the playoffs.

Now?  There seems to be complete, unequivocal buy-in and respect:

That trust has been reciprocated and it was exemplified in the Celtics? roller-coaster Game 3 win, putting them one victory from raising championship banner No. 18. ?I think Joe is a basketball genius,? White said. ?So whatever he says, I?m going to try to just do it to my highest capabilities.?

Jaylen Brown on the Celtics coaches: ?The coaching staff has been fantastic all season long? it?s just been super organized, we walk through all different types of scenarios, we?re overly prepared.? On Joe Mazzulla: ?He?s been coaching his ass off.?

[Goldstar88]

I was wrong about Joe and his ability to make adjustments in the playoffs. Perhaps even dead wrong. Have no problem admitting. Have loved this whole run.

Not many on here would admit this, so a TP for that.