Author Topic: Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching  (Read 710792 times)

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Offline Kernewek

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You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.
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Offline Goldstar88

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I?ve been critical of Joe at times but I don?t really have much of anything to be critical of right now. Might have been wrong on him.

TP for willing to change your mind based on evidence. I?m wondering how many others will be as honest next week, though I think most critics will turtle, as they do.

How many people are in here actively posting about how bad Joe is during these playoffs?  I think people had legit concerns after last year's playoffs, which couldn't be answered until this year's post-season.  Once everyone saw that the team is playing quite well under Joe, they have quit calling for his head.

Several things are true, from my perspective:

1.  Joe was an actively bad coach last year, particularly in the playoffs;

2.  Player publicly complained about the lack of emphasis on defense;

3.  We lost multiple games that we should have won, and coaching played into that, as the team often looked unprepared and Joe was slow with adjustments;

4.  Adding Lee and Cassell helped this season;

5.  Joe has showed coaching growth and less stubbornness;

6.  Joe's strengths lie in motivation and preparation; his weaknesses are in-game management, making adjustments in-game, and play-calling (which hasn't been a problem in the playoffs);

7.  Joe coached poorly in Game 2 against Miami; in other games, he has ranged from average to good.

8.  Joe isn't a "great" coach, but he's got the team to buy-in and trust him.  He's no longer an impediment to winning.

9.  It would be silly to fire Joe, but I also wouldn't sign him to an extension.

10.  (And just because...) I'd still rather have Ime.  ;)

You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

The Celtics have lost 2 games this postseason. They have the second best offense (only Indiana was better) and the 3rd best defense during these playoffs. Seems like his schemes are working just fine.
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Offline JohnBoy65

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Tatum had a soliloquy today about Joes character, what he means to this team and organization, and to him. Other players have said the same thing. Is he the best coach in the NBA? Of course not, but only 1 coach gets to hold that title. How many players have to gush about Joe for us to realize he?s meant for this team, at least in this moment.

His scheme is congruent with some of the top coaches like: Kerr, Spolestra, Bud, Carlisle, and others.

To be frank, I find this entire thread to be offensive. And one of the worst parts of Celtics fandom. It?s beyond fair to criticize a coach. But to advocate for his firing 2 wins away from a finals? It?s disappointing.

Offline Roy H.

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Tatum had a soliloquy today about Joes character, what he means to this team and organization, and to him. Other players have said the same thing. Is he the best coach in the NBA? Of course not, but only 1 coach gets to hold that title. How many players have to gush about Joe for us to realize he?s meant for this team, at least in this moment.

His scheme is congruent with some of the top coaches like: Kerr, Spolestra, Bud, Carlisle, and others.

To be frank, I find this entire thread to be offensive. And one of the worst parts of Celtics fandom. It?s beyond fair to criticize a coach. But to advocate for his firing 2 wins away from a finals? It?s disappointing.

Is anybody actually doing that?


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Offline tenn_smoothie

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You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.

Interesting point ............. however, remember when Dallas cut the 28-point lead to 8, much of that was due to the offense becoming stagnant and resorting to the over-dribbling, iso-fallaway jumpers and many on this board were sure upset about it then. This team has the most talented roster in the league, firepower at every possession and every player but two, tend to keep the ball moving more than not. Why does it have to stop when it hits the J's hands ? How much better would we be if the offense had more movement, player and ball. We've been fortunate not to have faced any of the other very top defenses in the league.

I am hardly alone in my opinion, between other CS members, former players now doing commentary and more knowledgeable media. I know that when the Celtics struggle, it is due to one of two things, a lack of focus and energy on defense and/or the offense becoming stagnant because of too many isolation, dribble-heavy possessions with players standing around the 3-point line watching. Recent champions have had ball & player movement style offenses that harken back to the "good basketball" of 20, 30, 40 years ago that you speak of.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 12:21:04 AM by tenn_smoothie »
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Offline BudweiserCeltic

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You left out Joe's one glaring weakness, that being his offensive scheme and philosophy.
The ball still stops when it hits either Tatum's or Brown's hands and they go into their bag of tricks dribble routine.
It's great when they drive and have success, but why not drive off a catch and move rather than catch and dribble while the team watches.
Those possessions are the reason the two J's still have turnover problems at times.

At a certain point Tenn, does it tip over to the fact that at least some of this criticism has to be aesthetic: wanting basketball to look a certain way and trying to rationalise not seeing what would have passed for 'good basketball' 20, 30, or 40 years ago, no matter the results.

Because more or less any way you slice it, the Celtics just turned in one of the all-time greatest offensive seasons the NBA has ever seen, and they're barely turning it down in the post-season.

Interesting point ............. however, remember when Dallas cut the 28-point lead to 8, much of that was due to the offense becoming stagnant and resorting to the over-dribbling, iso-fallaway jumpers and many on this board were sure upset about it then. This team has the most talented roster in the league, firepower at every possession and every player but two, tend to keep the ball moving more than not. Why does it have to stop when it hits the J's hands ? How much better would we be if the offense had more movement, player and ball. We've been fortunate not to have faced any of the other very top defenses in the league.

I am hardly alone in my opinion, between other CS members, former players now doing commentary and more knowledgeable media. I know that when the Celtics struggle, it is due to one of two things, a lack of focus and energy on defense and/or the offense becoming stagnant because of too many isolation, dribble-heavy possessions with players standing around the 3-point line watching. Recent champions have had ball & player movement style offenses that harken back to the "good basketball" of 20, 30, 40 years ago that you speak of.

The problem is, why are you making these fails a coaching scheme issue rather than a player thing issue? It's quite clearly in my view that when Brown and Tatum get like that, they are not running the coach's offense. Every team in the league has to deal with that and their stars, and this has been something that has plagued Tatum and Brown teams since forever... why is it suddenly a Joe issue?

That's what made the Spurs teams and to some degree the Golden State team special, they more often than not didn't have these problems in their runs. But that's what made them special, not the norm.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 01:50:46 AM by BudweiserCeltic »

Offline tenn_smoothie

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I put it on Joe because he continually calls the one-on-one 3's good shots.
He has stated that he believes the most important stat in basketball is 3-point attempts.
That type of emphasis leads to bad shot selection, which is my gripe about the offense.
The coach is encouraging this type of offense, he is not yelling at the J's when they jack up bad shots.
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Offline Kernewek

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I put it on Joe because he continually calls the one-on-one 3's good shots.
He has stated that he believes the most important stat in basketball is 3-point attempts.
That type of emphasis leads to bad shot selection, which is my gripe about the offense.
The coach is encouraging this type of offense, he is not yelling at the J's when they jack up bad shots.
But this is it, right - a lot of those shots, especially when taken by the Celtics, are good shots. Even if they come at the possible expense of better shots.

For example: I think we all know exactly what you are talking about - the pull-up three in the halfcourt after a pick and roll when waiting a beat would have seen the roll man open for a pass heading to the basket.

But also shots like this one:
https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2024/04/21/0042300101/178/d5854f8b-3672-8c06-45de-5e6e4830c851_1280x720.mp4

Or this one:
https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2024/04/24/0042300102/212/95f6a2f6-bfdf-111a-3f3d-47106b1207a0_1280x720.mp4


Or this one, against Miami, where Kristaps hoists a three after popping: https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2024/04/21/0042300101/33/c133a871-0e7d-0d00-94d8-613984864ce0_1280x720.mp4

The thing is, these are all good shots, because the average halfcourt ORTG in the NBA is about 1.15, so a look like the examples above - let's say they're worth about 1.2 points per attempt, plus the potential for an offensive board, is a better-than-average outcome in the halfcourt.

This is still true even if, with hindsight and a miss, we can say that a pass would have been better.

And these are the types of shots that the Celtics take which allow them so much offensive freedom, right - even the properly bad shots (like the dreaded step-backs) are usually the result of switches or late-shot clock situations, but that doesn't apply to the vast majority of the threes that they take, which is why they've been so difficult to guard.

Again - I get the aesthetics. As a viewer, I also prefer possessions like this one, which is a missed three that features four guys touching the ball and at least a modicum of cross-court movement:
https://videos.nba.com/nba/pbp/media/2024/04/24/0042300102/68/c425bacf-164c-4c3a-34ac-04ce6ec1e797_1280x720.mp4

But the 'bad shots' are a big part of what helps the offense run, because they're not actually 'bad shots' at all.

edit: updated the points per possession via Statmuse & PBP stats, but the point is largely the same: the league average off of points following a missed three pointer is 1.16 points per possession, but for the Celtics it's 1.25, per PBP stats. Inpridictable shows the same thing, but slightly different numbers due to differing definitions.



Data nerds can play with the numbers here:

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-team-had-the-worst-points-per-possession-in-the-half-court-in-the-2024-regular-season

https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask/what-team-had-the-best-points-per-possession-in-the-half-court-in-2024-regular-season

https://www.pbpstats.com/totals/nba/team?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&StartType=OffMissed3

https://www.pbpstats.com/totals/nba/team?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&StartType=OffMissed2

http://stats.inpredictable.com/nba/ssnTeamPoss.php
« Last Edit: June 12, 2024, 06:59:48 AM by Kernewek »
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Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I put it on Joe because he continually calls the one-on-one 3's good shots.
He has stated that he believes the most important stat in basketball is 3-point attempts.
That type of emphasis leads to bad shot selection, which is my gripe about the offense.
The coach is encouraging this type of offense, he is not yelling at the J's when they jack up bad shots.

He uses attempts as a quick indicator before he has goes back to review the film as a measure of our pace and spacing. That doesn't mean he's advocating all the bad 3 point attempts we take, but at the same time I'd say he'd gladly take the bad attempts if in the aggregate we're taking that many more good ones. His offensive philosophy is about reading and reacting, making decisions quick. It's what they practice over and over all year, but it's all with the idea the more often than we'll find a player to take a good open shot and he doesn't want players hesitating if that shot happens to be a 3.

Now, we can disagree on the philosophy of taking many threes, I got no problem with that. And you may not like that, and I respect that opinion. But this thing of putting it all on Joe when we take bad ones is absurd. Like if you complain we missing a lot of threes, hey that's fine, that's the risk of the strategy. We can argue if they were good shots or not, and what not, but blaming the coach for players making bad decisions is simplistic in my view. Like in game 2, first half I'd say we were mostly missing good open shots, but in the 2nd half, they were mostly bad shots taken not within the framework of our offense. And I'm fine with the former, not the latter.

We want to go inside more, that's fine. There's nothing preventing our offensive scheme from doing that, if players go and execute that. Now, if you tell me, hey... Joe's not focusing on going inside when we need to. That's valid, I can accept that. In what it respects me is that I have a big issue with having Tatum bringing up the ball and/or initiating offense from the top of the key in just about every possession. I rather him find more opportunities of initiating offense closer to the rim.

I have also a big problem with the lack of off ball movement, surprisingly that issue surfaces itself when the ball starts to stick in the hands of our players, I think there's something missing there. With all this read and reacting stuff, I think there's something not quite right there... when the ball sticks, things get tough, no one seems aware enough to work the defense to alleviate the pressure on the player with the ball. Sometimes we see a Jru or White cut, but that's only sometimes. In this particular context, I put more onus on the coach than the players, even if the ball sticking is not in the game plan. But fact is our off ball movement is putrid too often.

What coach yells at their stars when then take bad shots? Very few do, and when they do it often leads to one of them being moved from the team.

Offline Roy H.

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I'm curious about one aspect of Joe's growth:  if we need a game-winner in the Finals, will Joe reflexively go to the terrible Tatum iso that seemed like it was our only end of quarter play during the season?  Or, will he be willing to call plays for other guys, like the game-tying shot JB had against Indiana?

I think that was the single biggest complaint I consistently had with Joe this season, but I'm hoping it's remedied itself.


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Offline green_bballers13

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I swear if the Celtics lose this series then Joe needs to go.

First not taking KP out of game early when showing signs of limping, both times. Then he said there's "no concern" to his Game 2 injury, but now today he said KP's injury is "very serious".

Don't even wanna get into his coaching problems. This is frustrating.

What is frustrating? I'm reading your post, and I don't get it. They're 14-2 in the playoffs, mostly without KP. They just swept an Indy team that was playing harder than Dallas. What am I missing?
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Online Moranis

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I'm curious about one aspect of Joe's growth:  if we need a game-winner in the Finals, will Joe reflexively go to the terrible Tatum iso that seemed like it was our only end of quarter play during the season?  Or, will he be willing to call plays for other guys, like the game-tying shot JB had against Indiana?

I think that was the single biggest complaint I consistently had with Joe this season, but I'm hoping it's remedied itself.
Tatum is by far Boston's best playmaker. He should have the ball. I'm fine if the play runs through him for someone else, but Tatum needs to be making that decision. Holiday is the only other guy I'd trust to make thay decision.  He is just more limited in what he can do.
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Offline Roy H.

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I'm curious about one aspect of Joe's growth:  if we need a game-winner in the Finals, will Joe reflexively go to the terrible Tatum iso that seemed like it was our only end of quarter play during the season?  Or, will he be willing to call plays for other guys, like the game-tying shot JB had against Indiana?

I think that was the single biggest complaint I consistently had with Joe this season, but I'm hoping it's remedied itself.
Tatum is by far Boston's best playmaker. He should have the ball. I'm fine if the play runs through him for someone else, but Tatum needs to be making that decision. Holiday is the only other guy I'd trust to make thay decision.  He is just more limited in what he can do.

Yeah, that's a different thing.  I don't mind if Tatum has the ball.  I absolutely hate it when he settles for three pointers or fadeaways.  He simply hasn't been making those shots.

One of my favorite Celtics memories is Paul Pierce passing to Delonte West for a game-winner.  Draw the defense, pass it to the open guy.  Tatum is brilliant at it for about 47.5 minutes every game, but then keeps the ball for the last shot.



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Offline green_bballers13

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I'm curious about one aspect of Joe's growth:  if we need a game-winner in the Finals, will Joe reflexively go to the terrible Tatum iso that seemed like it was our only end of quarter play during the season?  Or, will he be willing to call plays for other guys, like the game-tying shot JB had against Indiana?

I think that was the single biggest complaint I consistently had with Joe this season, but I'm hoping it's remedied itself.
Tatum is by far Boston's best playmaker. He should have the ball. I'm fine if the play runs through him for someone else, but Tatum needs to be making that decision. Holiday is the only other guy I'd trust to make thay decision.  He is just more limited in what he can do.

Yeah, that's a different thing.  I don't mind if Tatum has the ball.  I absolutely hate it when he settles for three pointers or fadeaways.  He simply hasn't been making those shots.

One of my favorite Celtics memories is Paul Pierce passing to Delonte West for a game-winner.  Draw the defense, pass it to the open guy.  Tatum is brilliant at it for about 47.5 minutes every game, but then keeps the ball for the last shot.

Eh, he does that sometimes. JB tied the game vs. Indy at the end. Others have taken the last shot. I would agree with you if Tatum missed the last shot every time (or close to every time).
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Offline BudweiserCeltic

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I'm curious about one aspect of Joe's growth:  if we need a game-winner in the Finals, will Joe reflexively go to the terrible Tatum iso that seemed like it was our only end of quarter play during the season?  Or, will he be willing to call plays for other guys, like the game-tying shot JB had against Indiana?

I think that was the single biggest complaint I consistently had with Joe this season, but I'm hoping it's remedied itself.
Tatum is by far Boston's best playmaker. He should have the ball. I'm fine if the play runs through him for someone else, but Tatum needs to be making that decision. Holiday is the only other guy I'd trust to make thay decision.  He is just more limited in what he can do.

Yeah, that's a different thing.  I don't mind if Tatum has the ball.  I absolutely hate it when he settles for three pointers or fadeaways.  He simply hasn't been making those shots.

One of my favorite Celtics memories is Paul Pierce passing to Delonte West for a game-winner.  Draw the defense, pass it to the open guy.  Tatum is brilliant at it for about 47.5 minutes every game, but then keeps the ball for the last shot.

Personally I'd just bring Pritchard off the bench and have him shoot a half court 3.