Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[celticsclay]

I?ve been critical of Joe at times but I don?t really have much of anything to be critical of right now. Might have been wrong on him.

[green_bballers13]

I?ve been critical of Joe at times but I don?t really have much of anything to be critical of right now. Might have been wrong on him.

TP for willing to change your mind based on evidence. I?m wondering how many others will be as honest next week, though I think most critics will turtle, as they do.

[Roy H.]

I?ve been critical of Joe at times but I don?t really have much of anything to be critical of right now. Might have been wrong on him.

TP for willing to change your mind based on evidence. I?m wondering how many others will be as honest next week, though I think most critics will turtle, as they do.

How many people are in here actively posting about how bad Joe is during these playoffs?  I think people had legit concerns after last year's playoffs, which couldn't be answered until this year's post-season.  Once everyone saw that the team is playing quite well under Joe, they have quit calling for his head.

Several things are true, from my perspective:

1.  Joe was an actively bad coach last year, particularly in the playoffs;

2.  Player publicly complained about the lack of emphasis on defense;

3.  We lost multiple games that we should have won, and coaching played into that, as the team often looked unprepared and Joe was slow with adjustments;

4.  Adding Lee and Cassell helped this season;

5.  Joe has showed coaching growth and less stubbornness;

6.  Joe's strengths lie in motivation and preparation; his weaknesses are in-game management, making adjustments in-game, and play-calling (which hasn't been a problem in the playoffs);

7.  Joe coached poorly in Game 2 against Miami; in other games, he has ranged from average to good.

8.  Joe isn't a "great" coach, but he's got the team to buy-in and trust him.  He's no longer an impediment to winning.

9.  It would be silly to fire Joe, but I also wouldn't sign him to an extension.

10.  (And just because...) I'd still rather have Ime. 

[Moranis]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

[green_bballers13]

The premise that he couldn?t show that he was a good coach until the playoffs is silly. They crushed the competition this regular season (similar to the playoffs), and the loud minority didn?t want to give him credit.

The premise that a rookie coach couldn?t improve was also silly.

A thread going on 170 pages is prob the silliest aspect of this.

[Roy H.]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

[green_bballers13]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

So if Joe is a bottom 5 coach, does that mean perhaps Ime is a bottom 4 coach?

[Roy H.]

The premise that he couldn?t show that he was a good coach until the playoffs is silly. They crushed the competition this regular season (similar to the playoffs), and the loud minority didn?t want to give him credit.

I disagree.

If we'd cruised through the regular season but saw several performances similar to MIA Game 2 and got upset by Indiana, the regular season wouldn't have mattered.  Joe's biggest failures came in the playoffs last season, so it was fair to want to see proof of playoff success.  Now, we're seeing it, and he's proven his doubters wrong.

[green_bballers13]

The premise that he couldn?t show that he was a good coach until the playoffs is silly. They crushed the competition this regular season (similar to the playoffs), and the loud minority didn?t want to give him credit.

I disagree.

If we'd cruised through the regular season but saw several performances similar to MIA Game 2 and got upset by Indiana, the regular season wouldn't have mattered.  Joe's biggest failures came in the playoffs last season, so it was fair to want to see proof of playoff success.  Now, we're seeing it, and he's proven his doubters wrong.

Ok, I accept that as a mea culpa.

Joe?s wife will be waiting for the fruit basket

[angryguy77]

The premise that he couldn?t show that he was a good coach until the playoffs is silly. They crushed the competition this regular season (similar to the playoffs), and the loud minority didn?t want to give him credit.

The premise that a rookie coach couldn?t improve was also silly.

A thread going on 170 pages is prob the silliest aspect of this.

The premise that he needed to learn how to properly take a TO was silly. He was failing at some basic things, yet supported by many here.
He is doing a better job for the most part, but he is also playing with a stacked team.

He is improving and I hope he continues to get better, but he's still very much capable of pulling a boner like leaving a gimpy KP in for too long.

I need a larger sample size before doing a 180 on him.
I will say I'm liking his interactions with the media after the game. I loved how he asked "were there any finals with 2 Christians coaching" to the reporter who asked about his thoughts on 2 black coaches meeting. They didn't know what to say

[Kernewek]

The premise that he couldn?t show that he was a good coach until the playoffs is silly. They crushed the competition this regular season (similar to the playoffs), and the loud minority didn?t want to give him credit.

The premise that a rookie coach couldn?t improve was also silly.

A thread going on 170 pages is prob the silliest aspect of this.

The premise that he needed to learn how to properly take a TO was silly. He was failing at some basic things, yet supported by many here.
He is doing a better job for the most part, but he is also playing with a stacked team.

He is improving and I hope he continues to get better, but he's still very much capable of pulling a boner like leaving a gimpy KP in for too long.

I need a larger sample size before doing a 180 on him.
I will say I'm liking his interactions with the media after the game. I loved how he asked "were there any finals with 2 Christians coaching" to the reporter who asked about his thoughts on 2 black coaches meeting. They didn't know what to say

To the bolded, I think at this point it's fair to ask if you have a problem with your reading comprehension.

[Moranis]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

[green_bballers13]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

TP. This is all accurate. Ime is overrated here and Joe has been very underrated.

[Roy H.]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

[Kernewek]

Ime is a worse coach than Joe

Perhaps, but Ime did more with less and changed the culture of the team.

I don't think that is true at all.  He certainly didn't do more as we now have 2 wins in the Finals same as Ime, and I don't think he changed the culture of the team at all. I mean Boston was a top 4 offense and a top 4 defense in 2020 (and a top 3 net rating) and was in the ECF.  They lost some players and replaced them with garbage, had more injuries, and didn't have a great year in 2021. Stevens then moved to the front office and started fixing the roster.  Ime came in during that time and the improved roster got the C's to the finals with the 7th offense, 2nd defense, and 2nd in net rating.  Roster improved again and Joe came in and bumped the offense to 2nd, kept the defense great at 3, and moved the net rating to 1st. This year, improved roster again, offense 1st, defense 3rd, and net rating still 1 (but almost double the prior year).

Stevens changed the culture by changing the roster. A roster Ainge basically neglected for years by making only minor free agents moves and very few deadline deals to improve the team.  The culture changed when Ainge left.  He created some stagnation woth his inability to change. Not a problem Stevens has had.

Ime took over a .500 team and led them to the Finals.  After his system was fully implemented, the team led the NBA in point differential, offensive rating and defensive rating for several months.  Marcus Smart improved his defense drastically, finishing as DPOY.  Jason Tatum describes Ime as his favorite coach ever.

Joe took over an NBA Finalist, added the 6MOY, and flopped in the playoffs.  Multiple players cited a lack of commitment to defense.  Joe's now got an absolutely stacked team which is in no way comparable to the 2022 level of talent, and he's winning.  Kudos to that.  But, of the past three Celtics teams, the 2022 team was the worst, and yet they were in the Finals. 

You can't act like Ime and Joe started out with similar teams.  Ime remade a mediocre, tuned-out team into EC champions and legit contenders.  Under Joe, that team regressed, before being remade by Stevens.

The big question mark for me, really, is whether or not Udoka would have been able to do anything with Porzingis, particularly on the offensive half of the board. You might differ reflexively, but  I'm not sure that's a given based on what we saw in Boston or in Houston.

However, KP is clearly the big difference between the 2022 squad and this one - not only is the team equal-or-better defensively in 2024, they're light-years ahead on the offensive side of the ball.

You used to love comparing Mazza to Luke Walton, but perhaps it's time to start thinking about Udoka as a Mark Jackson in this analogy. Either that or it's the difference between a hurt Timelord & Grant Williams and a mostly-healthy (knock on wood) KP.