Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Roy H.]

"It was the issue," Brogdon said. "This was a team last year that prided themselves on defense. Defense was their calling card. And then this year, offense was our calling card, and I don’t think you win championships with the better offense than you have defense."

[Banner18now!]

Second row Joe isn’t going anywhere. Same mess next year. The only reason why the Celtics didn’t lose in the first round is because the Hawks beat the Heat in the play in game. If Miami won these bums would have been gone a long time ago. This team was never going anywhere the minute they put second row Joe in charge. And don’t get me wrong, this is also on these idiotic players who make the same mistakes time and time again. They just need a real coach who won’t tolerate them and actually have them run a real offense.

[SHAQATTACK]

Joe can’t control shooting or injuries.  Both wound up being large part of their demise against Heat .

But,  as the games got more critical, against the better players and coaches , Joe was firmly exposed as a big disadvantage and poor coaching .  He was just  ok when everything’s going good in regular season team running on auto pilot from past years . Talent and athleticism was winning the day .

Joe is obviously not the level coach mentally or experienced this team that hopes to contend needs .  He is ok as an assistant and fill in dude.  He may not be ready for many years at this level. And that’s not unusual, assistant like Udoka are in training many years before earning the shot .   Wyc and company got between coaches ,  fiddled around , should have made a shorter term decision about Udoka , the year thing was stupid . They should have been searching for new coach 3 month after Udoka and made a firm decision to let him go or hire new head coach. 
 Poor FO Mgmt from so many angles over the whole thing.

He is wasting the Celtics time.

[gouki88]

Al just abominable all night, yet he got 34 minutes to Timelord's 14 minutes.

And that's all on Joe's fascination with the three ball offense and refusal to play Timelord big minutes because he provides less spacing.

For the love of God, just move on from this guy.

I don’t like the 3 ball either, but you do realize that this is how Brad wants the team to play, right?

Then why did we attempt significantly fewer under both Brad and Ime?

You know, I wonder about this. At first I thought it might be a pace thing - as in people evaluating raw numbers without taking into account shot opportunities - but since 2018, more or less, we've actually played slower and slower, per B/R, and we were squarely in the middle of the pack when it came to shots per game.

But - and this is also important for the discussion - last year, under Udoka, we shot 37.1 threes per game at a 35.5% clip (approximately 39.5ppg of our offense). This season we shot 42.1 at a 37.7% clip, good for sixth in the league and 47.6ppg of our offense.

So Mazza's offense definitely had us shooting more threes, but we also made more threes. food for thought.

I think the improvement was interesting, but we lost sight of balance in offence. We saw that when we would be dominating inside (Philly series jumps to mind) yet seemed to avoid the strong areas due to Joe’s tenets. The commitment / stubbornness in the face of contrary evidence is what really bothered me, and I think it was taken to a new level under Joe.

I think the offence needs reorientation. But I also think that is a product of the roster. We lack a lot of dribble penetration from our guards (the kind of quickness that other teams have), and we went away from high post playmaking.

[gouki88]

"It was the issue," Brogdon said. "This was a team last year that prided themselves on defense. Defense was their calling card. And then this year, offense was our calling card, and I don’t think you win championships with the better offense than you have defense."

And Brogdon was doodoo on both ends this series. Should have had the awareness to sit his butt down

[Indocelts]

Al just abominable all night, yet he got 34 minutes to Timelord's 14 minutes.

And that's all on Joe's fascination with the three ball offense and refusal to play Timelord big minutes because he provides less spacing.

For the love of God, just move on from this guy.

I don’t like the 3 ball either, but you do realize that this is how Brad wants the team to play, right?

Then why did we attempt significantly fewer under both Brad and Ime?

You know, I wonder about this. At first I thought it might be a pace thing - as in people evaluating raw numbers without taking into account shot opportunities - but since 2018, more or less, we've actually played slower and slower, per B/R, and we were squarely in the middle of the pack when it came to shots per game.

But - and this is also important for the discussion - last year, under Udoka, we shot 37.1 threes per game at a 35.5% clip (approximately 39.5ppg of our offense). This season we shot 42.1 at a 37.7% clip, good for sixth in the league and 47.6ppg of our offense.

So Mazza's offense definitely had us shooting more threes, but we also made more threes. food for thought.

I think the improvement was interesting, but we lost sight of balance in offence. We saw that when we would be dominating inside (Philly series jumps to mind) yet seemed to avoid the strong areas due to Joe’s tenets. The commitment / stubbornness in the face of contrary evidence is what really bothered me, and I think it was taken to a new level under Joe.

I think the offence needs reorientation. But I also think that is a product of the roster. We lack a lot of dribble penetration from our guards (the kind of quickness that other teams have), and we went away from high post playmaking.

I think the stats would be a much different read between pre All Star and post All Star. Our playoff play style is a continuation of the post All Star. We are much less accurate shooting 3s post All Star.

[gouki88]

Al just abominable all night, yet he got 34 minutes to Timelord's 14 minutes.

And that's all on Joe's fascination with the three ball offense and refusal to play Timelord big minutes because he provides less spacing.

For the love of God, just move on from this guy.

I don’t like the 3 ball either, but you do realize that this is how Brad wants the team to play, right?

Then why did we attempt significantly fewer under both Brad and Ime?

You know, I wonder about this. At first I thought it might be a pace thing - as in people evaluating raw numbers without taking into account shot opportunities - but since 2018, more or less, we've actually played slower and slower, per B/R, and we were squarely in the middle of the pack when it came to shots per game.

But - and this is also important for the discussion - last year, under Udoka, we shot 37.1 threes per game at a 35.5% clip (approximately 39.5ppg of our offense). This season we shot 42.1 at a 37.7% clip, good for sixth in the league and 47.6ppg of our offense.

So Mazza's offense definitely had us shooting more threes, but we also made more threes. food for thought.

I think the improvement was interesting, but we lost sight of balance in offence. We saw that when we would be dominating inside (Philly series jumps to mind) yet seemed to avoid the strong areas due to Joe’s tenets. The commitment / stubbornness in the face of contrary evidence is what really bothered me, and I think it was taken to a new level under Joe.

I think the offence needs reorientation. But I also think that is a product of the roster. We lack a lot of dribble penetration from our guards (the kind of quickness that other teams have), and we went away from high post playmaking.

I think the stats would be a much different read between pre All Star and post All Star. Our playoff play style is a continuation of the post All Star. We are much less accurate shooting 3s post All Star.

I think that correlates with Joe becoming the genuine head coach, rather than the interim.

[ozgod]

Al just abominable all night, yet he got 34 minutes to Timelord's 14 minutes.

And that's all on Joe's fascination with the three ball offense and refusal to play Timelord big minutes because he provides less spacing.

For the love of God, just move on from this guy.

I don’t like the 3 ball either, but you do realize that this is how Brad wants the team to play, right?

Then why did we attempt significantly fewer under both Brad and Ime?

You know, I wonder about this. At first I thought it might be a pace thing - as in people evaluating raw numbers without taking into account shot opportunities - but since 2018, more or less, we've actually played slower and slower, per B/R, and we were squarely in the middle of the pack when it came to shots per game.

But - and this is also important for the discussion - last year, under Udoka, we shot 37.1 threes per game at a 35.5% clip (approximately 39.5ppg of our offense). This season we shot 42.1 at a 37.7% clip, good for sixth in the league and 47.6ppg of our offense.

So Mazza's offense definitely had us shooting more threes, but we also made more threes. food for thought.

I think the improvement was interesting, but we lost sight of balance in offence. We saw that when we would be dominating inside (Philly series jumps to mind) yet seemed to avoid the strong areas due to Joe’s tenets. The commitment / stubbornness in the face of contrary evidence is what really bothered me, and I think it was taken to a new level under Joe.

I think the offence needs reorientation. But I also think that is a product of the roster. We lack a lot of dribble penetration from our guards (the kind of quickness that other teams have), and we went away from high post playmaking.

It's interesting when you look at the stats I provided earlier, we actually shot 60% from 2 this series...in Games 1 and 2 that we lost we shot 60% but we took proportionally less of those shots than Miami did. Sometimes I think we just keep trying the 3 because "eventually they'll start going in" and because the stats nerds and quants keep telling them that those are the highest value shots, so our entire offense is predicated on generating those types of looks with spacing. I think we struggle a little bit with the quality of the 3 that we take - nobody would complain if someone who shoots 35%+ from 3 takes an open one because (I think) it would be a good shot option to take. Or if it's a look from 3 that was generated by forcing the other team to go into rotation with a drive and kick or ball movement. I'm less enthused about those iso step backs with players in front of them or the ones that come with no ball movement.

I just think they need to use better judgment, because there are consequences to missing these 3s more than the missed 3 points, you give the other team a chance to get in transition and if you are slow to get back (which we often are) then you could ignite a run by the other team by giving up an open look from 3 on the other end (which we did a lot this series).

[GreenBoomer]

Stevens brought that 3-point college approach, passed it down, and they think he's great. And once again it cost us. Get him outta there. I had to turn the game off last night - so obvious that they didn't have it, yet riding that dead horse all the way to the finish line.

[scaryjerry]

"It was the issue," Brogdon said. "This was a team last year that prided themselves on defense. Defense was their calling card. And then this year, offense was our calling card, and I don’t think you win championships with the better offense than you have defense."

Biggest issue and biggest mistake of the year and certainly this series was turning to that absolute turnstile bum in game 7 when we were already off to a poor start and him air balling jumpers and not being able to defend a chair. And this is what that clown has to say after the game?
His game is the epitome of no defense only offense. He’s part of the problem.

Your coach played you. A no defense bum. You should have been glued to the bench. And then you come out and essentially don’t take blame and put it on coaching? Shameful.

Get that guy far, far away from my team

[Kernewek]

Al just abominable all night, yet he got 34 minutes to Timelord's 14 minutes.

And that's all on Joe's fascination with the three ball offense and refusal to play Timelord big minutes because he provides less spacing.

For the love of God, just move on from this guy.

I don’t like the 3 ball either, but you do realize that this is how Brad wants the team to play, right?

Then why did we attempt significantly fewer under both Brad and Ime?

You know, I wonder about this. At first I thought it might be a pace thing - as in people evaluating raw numbers without taking into account shot opportunities - but since 2018, more or less, we've actually played slower and slower, per B/R, and we were squarely in the middle of the pack when it came to shots per game.

But - and this is also important for the discussion - last year, under Udoka, we shot 37.1 threes per game at a 35.5% clip (approximately 39.5ppg of our offense). This season we shot 42.1 at a 37.7% clip, good for sixth in the league and 47.6ppg of our offense.

So Mazza's offense definitely had us shooting more threes, but we also made more threes. food for thought.

I think the improvement was interesting, but we lost sight of balance in offence. We saw that when we would be dominating inside (Philly series jumps to mind) yet seemed to avoid the strong areas due to Joe’s tenets. The commitment / stubbornness in the face of contrary evidence is what really bothered me, and I think it was taken to a new level under Joe.

I think the offence needs reorientation. But I also think that is a product of the roster. We lack a lot of dribble penetration from our guards (the kind of quickness that other teams have), and we went away from high post playmaking.

I think the stats would be a much different read between pre All Star and post All Star. Our playoff play style is a continuation of the post All Star. We are much less accurate shooting 3s post All Star.

I think that correlates with Joe becoming the genuine head coach, rather than the interim.

The good news is that this is something we can check, and we don't have to make assumptions (which in this case, turn out to be incorrect).

Before the All Star break, the Celtics shot 37.5% from deep. After the All Star break, the Celtics shot 37.4% from deep.


Now, if we want to shift the goalposts and say "well we have 60 games before the ASB and only 22 games after so surely we would have gotten worse something something blither blather", we can include the post-season in our post ASB (even though this was not part of the original argument) and... after the all star break and including the post-season...


the Celtics shot 37.28 from deep. so one-quarter of one percent worse. That's not 'much less accurate' in any universe I'm familiar with.

That said, these maths aren't adding up - so if someone wants to double check me I'd welcome it.

Per BBR's game log page, the Celtics shot 37.54% from the regular season overall - as in, if you export the regular season games and take the average, you get 37.54%
But the season totals page has it at 37.7%

[scaryjerry]

"It was the issue," Brogdon said. "This was a team last year that prided themselves on defense. Defense was their calling card. And then this year, offense was our calling card, and I don’t think you win championships with the better offense than you have defense."

Still can’t believe this came from that moron

The irony.

We sign you, an offensive no defense player and suddenly are better on offense then defense. We win 3 games in this series when you’re glued to the bench and our defense was better.

This comment should not be coming from this moron

[Celtics4ever]

Thing is that is a false narrative, by Brogdon, too.  Our offense was great the first few months then it too was mediocre at times.  But it had cooled off by late December.   Then we were a frustrating team to watch more often than not.

We don't have a star that refuses to lose and take over games.  These guys freeze up sometimes in the crunch.  This includes everyone.

[jpotter33]

Al just abominable all night, yet he got 34 minutes to Timelord's 14 minutes.

And that's all on Joe's fascination with the three ball offense and refusal to play Timelord big minutes because he provides less spacing.

For the love of God, just move on from this guy.

I don’t like the 3 ball either, but you do realize that this is how Brad wants the team to play, right?

Then why did we attempt significantly fewer under both Brad and Ime?

You know, I wonder about this. At first I thought it might be a pace thing - as in people evaluating raw numbers without taking into account shot opportunities - but since 2018, more or less, we've actually played slower and slower, per B/R, and we were squarely in the middle of the pack when it came to shots per game.

But - and this is also important for the discussion - last year, under Udoka, we shot 37.1 threes per game at a 35.5% clip (approximately 39.5ppg of our offense). This season we shot 42.1 at a 37.7% clip, good for sixth in the league and 47.6ppg of our offense.

So Mazza's offense definitely had us shooting more threes, but we also made more threes. food for thought.

I think the improvement was interesting, but we lost sight of balance in offence. We saw that when we would be dominating inside (Philly series jumps to mind) yet seemed to avoid the strong areas due to Joe’s tenets. The commitment / stubbornness in the face of contrary evidence is what really bothered me, and I think it was taken to a new level under Joe.

I think the offence needs reorientation. But I also think that is a product of the roster. We lack a lot of dribble penetration from our guards (the kind of quickness that other teams have), and we went away from high post playmaking.

I think the stats would be a much different read between pre All Star and post All Star. Our playoff play style is a continuation of the post All Star. We are much less accurate shooting 3s post All Star.

I think that correlates with Joe becoming the genuine head coach, rather than the interim.

The good news is that this is something we can check, and we don't have to make assumptions (which in this case, turn out to be incorrect).

Before the All Star break, the Celtics shot 37.5% from deep. After the All Star break, the Celtics shot 37.4% from deep.


Now, if we want to shift the goalposts and say "well we have 60 games before the ASB and only 22 games after so surely we would have gotten worse something something blither blather", we can include the post-season in our post ASB (even though this was not part of the original argument) and... after the all star break and including the post-season...


the Celtics shot 37.28 from deep. so one-quarter of one percent worse. That's not 'much less accurate' in any universe I'm familiar with.

That said, these maths aren't adding up - so if someone wants to double check me I'd welcome it.

Per BBR's game log page, the Celtics shot 37.54% from the regular season overall - as in, if you export the regular season games and take the average, you get 37.54%
But the season totals page has it at 37.7%

I think the quantity versus quality of threes is the bigger issue, as well as the “keep shooting and they’ll eventually go in” single-mindedness.

Early in the year, the high volume of threes was more tolerable, because they were paired with excellent ball and player movement. So the quality of our threes was much better, particularly coming off the pass or inside/out after breaking down the defense. After the hot streak ended, we seemingly stopped moving the ball and moving off the ball, and we relied more on contested threes and/or threes off the dribble, which we’re seemingly much less efficient at.

Also, there’s got to be a plan B when the threes aren’t falling. Even last night, we were generally getting good looks off, but simply not making them. If your entire philosophy is that they’re eventually going to go in so keep shooting, you’re going to lose alot of games that way, because they’re not always going to go in.

[Phantom255x]

So apparently people online are saying Timelord only played 14 minutes because he got hurt too.

Wonderful. The guy we practically load managed all season still ends up getting hurt during the postseason.

I respect his effort and love the talent, but at the same time he still hasn't developed any sort of offensive game which isn't just dunks/lobs/layups, and he's very injury prone. They need to see what's out there and if something's good, Timelord should be dangled in a potential trade.