Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Ed Monix]

Shams Charania said the Celtics will likely use the offseason to bring in more veteran assistants who can help take some of the pressure off the young coach.

“If he got swept, I think there would be a lot more questions… but the fact that it did go to game 7, I think it allowed the Celtics to see that there is a little bit of runway, some potential here.”

Shams Charania on Joe Mazzulla’s future with the Celtics.

[angryguy77]

Move on from Brad and Joe.

I'm moving Zarren up and opening up a coaching search, although my main guys are Frank Vogel and Monty Williams.

Why would you move on from Brad? He provided the necessary pieces. Gallinari got hurt and then Joe didn't use the tools available to him.  Maybe you can fault Brad for entrusting Joe with coaching the team but things didn't go south till they gave Joe the permanent job.

Unless Brad was forced by Wyc, he should take the fall for putting Joe in that position and then making him HC before proving himself.

Fire Joe and Brad.
Trade Brown, smart and let AL walk.

We need changes in leadership and in the DNA of this team. No more of the "They're young" excuse. Either some changes are made or Tatum's prime is wasted and he'll ask for trade at some point.

Considering some of the other GM's in the league, I'm not sure hiring Joe and then giving him the full time job is a fireable offense. I think at the time he was given the full time job, the team was playing really well and no one seemed to object.

Also don't think blowing it up is the answer.  The team they come back with could be a lot worse than the current one. I do think they need a well placed tweak or two - and I can see changing out the coach if you're sick of 3 pt based offense and everything falling apart when the 3's aren't going in. Also their defensive decline vs last season.

In general the team is too soft unless they're totally locked in and that only seems to happen when the 3's are going in. I think that needs to be addressed.

NBA reg season to be isn't a great barometer of coaching talent when you have title contending roster. The thing to do was see how Joe measured up against playoff level intensity. How did he react and was he willing to adjust from his norms are things that should be looked at before crowning him coach.

I don't see him changing his philosophy. Next year it will be more of the same. This sucks because the team is just so unenjoyable to watch when they play within this system.

[boscel33]

Move on from Brad and Joe.

I'm moving Zarren up and opening up a coaching search, although my main guys are Frank Vogel and Monty Williams.

Why would you move on from Brad? He provided the necessary pieces. Gallinari got hurt and then Joe didn't use the tools available to him.  Maybe you can fault Brad for entrusting Joe with coaching the team but things didn't go south till they gave Joe the permanent job.

Did he?  How many TPE's expired last year and what was the value on them?  What trade did he make at the deadline?  Things were done ahead of the season, but he never replaced Gallinari when he went down and that was huge.  Look at the firsts he's given up?  Yeah, I'm not sold!

2019:  Romeo (14), Matisse (20) traded to PHL, Grant (22)
2020:  Aaron ((14), PP (26, Bane (30) traded to Memphis
2021:  None (OKC)
2022:  None (Spurs)
2023:  None (Indy)

[jpotter33]

https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2023/5/30/23741945/the-caleb-martin-series-boston-bizarre-demise-and-jaylen-brown-future-with-bills-dad

Interesting podcast with Bill and his dad, the guy who termed the phrase “Second Row Joe”.

Has much of the same criticisms of Joe and the extreme and narrow three point philosophy that many of us do. But what I found most interesting was his observation that much of the time at home games where he’s a season ticket holder close behind the bench, Al and Smart both largely led the huddles and timeouts, with Joe only taking a fraction of time to talk with the guys most times.

We’ve heard other reports of that, as well. Fairly suspect stuff with a sense that Joe knew all along how over his head he really was. Got to think that contributed to some of the locker room angst about him.

[Kernewek]

Have to wonder if that was the case prior to the ASB and Stat's departure from the coaching staff. Without that knowledge it feels like a bit of tangential fluff (from Bill Simmons?! I never).

[RMO]

https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2023/5/30/23741945/the-caleb-martin-series-boston-bizarre-demise-and-jaylen-brown-future-with-bills-dad

Interesting podcast with Bill and his dad, the guy who termed the phrase “Second Row Joe”.

Has much of the same criticisms of Joe and the extreme and narrow three point philosophy that many of us do. But what I found most interesting was his observation that much of the time at home games where he’s a season ticket holder close behind the bench, Al and Smart both largely led the huddles and timeouts, with Joe only taking a fraction of time to talk with the guys most times.

We’ve heard other reports of that, as well. Fairly suspect stuff with a sense that Joe knew all along how over his head he really was. Got to think that contributed to some of the locker room angst about him.

Didn't Udoka do something similar which he picked up apparently from Popovich?  The first part of the timeouts had the players talking and strategizing amongst themselves and then he came in after it had been going on awhile.

[Roy H.]

Shams Charania said the Celtics will likely use the offseason to bring in more veteran assistants who can help take some of the pressure off the young coach.

“If he got swept, I think there would be a lot more questions… but the fact that it did go to game 7, I think it allowed the Celtics to see that there is a little bit of runway, some potential here.”

Shams Charania on Joe Mazzulla’s future with the Celtics.

There's no potential.  He's a players' coach who prefers to "collaborate", while demanding nothing of his players other than lazy defense and stagnant movement leading to lots of sub-optimal 3PAs.  The system works great in the 40% of games where we shoot an elite percentage.  Anything below that, though, and we're a sub-.500 team.

And even better:  when the threes aren't falling, he refuses to adjust, and won't play the very good shooters (Hauser, Muscula) on the bench.

[Kernewek]

Shams Charania said the Celtics will likely use the offseason to bring in more veteran assistants who can help take some of the pressure off the young coach.

“If he got swept, I think there would be a lot more questions… but the fact that it did go to game 7, I think it allowed the Celtics to see that there is a little bit of runway, some potential here.”

Shams Charania on Joe Mazzulla’s future with the Celtics.

There's no potential.  He's a players' coach who prefers to "collaborate", while demanding nothing of his players other than lazy defense and stagnant movement leading to lots of sub-optimal 3PAs.  The system works great in the 40% of games where we shoot an elite percentage.  Anything below that, though, and we're a sub-.500 team.

And even better:  when the threes aren't falling, he refuses to adjust, and won't play the very good shooters (Hauser, Muscula) on the bench.

Kindly refer you to the last page of the thread - it's a bit more than that.

[Roy H.]

I’m getting depressed the more I think about this guy coming back next year. This Harden Rockets wannabe team was not fun to watch. The team is telling you the fit sucks, please listen to them.

Pretty sure Tatum is a big Joe guy.

Probably, because he's an easy going boss that doesn't require hard work.

That said, Tatum went on record as saying he preferred Ime.

[Indocelts]

Shams Charania said the Celtics will likely use the offseason to bring in more veteran assistants who can help take some of the pressure off the young coach.

“If he got swept, I think there would be a lot more questions… but the fact that it did go to game 7, I think it allowed the Celtics to see that there is a little bit of runway, some potential here.”

Shams Charania on Joe Mazzulla’s future with the Celtics.

There's no potential.  He's a players' coach who prefers to "collaborate", while demanding nothing of his players other than lazy defense and stagnant movement leading to lots of sub-optimal 3PAs.  The system works great in the 40% of games where we shoot an elite percentage.  Anything below that, though, and we're a sub-.500 team.

And even better:  when the threes aren't falling, he refuses to adjust, and won't play the very good shooters (Hauser, Muscula) on the bench.

Playing the good shooters more minutes was the reason the system   excelled in the first 2 months of the season.

Post ASG, when Joe tightened the rotation and let the core players (JB, JT and Smart)  shoot 3s at will,  the system showed its ugly face. It just didn't work quite as well as previously thought.

[Kernewek]

Shams Charania said the Celtics will likely use the offseason to bring in more veteran assistants who can help take some of the pressure off the young coach.

“If he got swept, I think there would be a lot more questions… but the fact that it did go to game 7, I think it allowed the Celtics to see that there is a little bit of runway, some potential here.”

Shams Charania on Joe Mazzulla’s future with the Celtics.

There's no potential.  He's a players' coach who prefers to "collaborate", while demanding nothing of his players other than lazy defense and stagnant movement leading to lots of sub-optimal 3PAs.  The system works great in the 40% of games where we shoot an elite percentage.  Anything below that, though, and we're a sub-.500 team.

And even better:  when the threes aren't falling, he refuses to adjust, and won't play the very good shooters (Hauser, Muscula) on the bench.

Playing the good shooters more minutes was the reason the system   excelled in the first 2 months of the season.

Post ASG, when Joe tightened the rotation and let the core players (JB, JT and Smart)  shoot 3s at will,  the system showed its ugly face. It just didn't work quite as well as previously thought.

What? The Celtics were 42-17 before the All Star Game. That's a 58 win pace. They finished with... 57 wins.

edit: and from earlier in the thread, since you brought it up again:
Before the All Star break, the Celtics shot 37.5% from three. After the All Star break, the Celtics shot 37.4% from three.

[GreenBoomer]

And their weaknesses were totally exposed in the playoffs.

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

what a joke even comparing these two.

if these 3 fools gold wins keeps joe then we shoulda been swept.

no real coach allows a team to collapse like that in a game 7 at home especially after a comeback like that IN SPITE OF HIM....well he did have his lucky challenge in game 6 

joe will waste more years of  JT.



how did that work out again joe?

[Roy H.]

It's funny, because the 2004 Sox don't really resemble the 2023 Celtics much.  It's obviously hard to analogize sports, but the Sox were a patient team based around working pitch counts and getting on base.  If they were akin to the 2023 Celtics, they'd say "HRs are the most efficient play in baseball" and would swing from their heels every time up.

[Kernewek]

That sox team was also significantly more relaxed. I hesitate to use the word 'chill', but to my memory they certainly didn't get rattled the same way the C's have this postseason.