Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[celts55]

I continue to believe Celtics win in spite of Joe, not because of him.

[jpotter33]

Interesting article on ESPN site by Windhorst that gives an accurate analysis comparing Ime's team and Joe's team.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37593391/last-year-how-celtics-save-their-season

Emphasis on defense vs emphasis on offense.
Player rotations that support the difference in team playing styles.
Ime played more of Rob & Horford & Grant due to their defensive prowess.
Joe is sitting Grant and Rob more and playing the shooters (when they are making shots that is).
Joe's doomed philosophy of shooting more 3's than your opponent vs Ime's dependence on a more reliable factor - defense.
The Celtics decline from the #2 defensive team in the playoffs last year to #10 this year.

Another failure of Brad's in all this was replacing a defensive-minded coach with an offensive-minded coach. He is probably more aligned with Joe in his basketball philosophy, given his own love of small-ball and 3-point shooting. His offensive acquisition of Brogdon (which bolstered the offense) and his failure to add a strong defender/rebounder in the post says a lot about Brad's thinking. No reason we should not have filled both those needs. We are currently committed to living by the 3-point shot and it ain't working.

TP. Great analysis by Windhorst that a lot of us have been discussing all year. But Joe’s extreme focus abd over-reliance on the offense has become even more blatant in the playoffs, which is such a big failure abd indicative of a poor, inexperienced coach who is dogmatic and unwilling to see other perspectives.

I’ll also say that I think a lot of Rob’s and Grant’s lackluster years have been directly due to how Joe plays them. He do deprioritizes the defense that their role is very limited, and it’s really killed our depth. I won’t be surprised to see GWill walk for nothing this year given how awful Joe has been with using him.

I'll take my TPs on a silver platter. 

[jpotter33]

Different day, same result.  Every single shortcoming Joe has shown in the regular season is showing itself in the playoffs.  The guy is just clueless and he's consistently failed to get the most out of this incredibly talented roster.

Looks like he talked them into playing defense tonight. So that’s good, right?

The lineup change is worthy of some praise. That shook up the team in a positive way.

How much credit do we give him for doing something he should have been doing all along?  It only took him 12 games, I guess.

I don't know that it is something Mazzula should have been doing all along. I've seen that mentioned a few times.

We started the season great without Timelord. He came back, we worked him back into the team, brought him back into the starting lineup and the team struggled. And struggled some more.

I know I was happy when they went back to the two guard lineup that was working so well earlier in the season. That the team just wasn't functioning as well with Timelord in the starting lineup.

Well, we gave it like a game or two. We didn't give it a long look, especially with Timelord coming off the injury.

And it didn't even have to be every game. But it was SO OBVIOUS this series that we should've been at the very least playing him more, as our rim protection was just non-existent. Also, the double big lineup allows Timelord to play more freely and challenge at the rim, ESPECIALLY with a player like PJ who he can realistically cheat off of. I think we'd seen maybe a minute of the Horford/Timelord pairing before tonight?

[Roy H.]

Different day, same result.  Every single shortcoming Joe has shown in the regular season is showing itself in the playoffs.  The guy is just clueless and he's consistently failed to get the most out of this incredibly talented roster.

Looks like he talked them into playing defense tonight. So that’s good, right?

The lineup change is worthy of some praise. That shook up the team in a positive way.

How much credit do we give him for doing something he should have been doing all along?  It only took him 12 games, I guess.

I don't know that it is something Mazzula should have been doing all along. I've seen that mentioned a few times.

We started the season great without Timelord. He came back, we worked him back into the team, brought him back into the starting lineup and the team struggled. And struggled some more.

I know I was happy when they went back to the two guard lineup that was working so well earlier in the season. That the team just wasn't functioning as well with Timelord in the starting lineup.

The team is 16–5 when Timelord started this season.  The team didn't really struggle with him as a starter. In fact, the team was significantly better down the stretch with him as a starter than otherwise.

I know that Joe has been gaslighting us all season, but our team plays better with its defensive backbone.

[Who]

Different day, same result.  Every single shortcoming Joe has shown in the regular season is showing itself in the playoffs.  The guy is just clueless and he's consistently failed to get the most out of this incredibly talented roster.

Looks like he talked them into playing defense tonight. So that’s good, right?

The lineup change is worthy of some praise. That shook up the team in a positive way.

How much credit do we give him for doing something he should have been doing all along?  It only took him 12 games, I guess.

I don't know that it is something Mazzula should have been doing all along. I've seen that mentioned a few times.

We started the season great without Timelord. He came back, we worked him back into the team, brought him back into the starting lineup and the team struggled. And struggled some more.

I know I was happy when they went back to the two guard lineup that was working so well earlier in the season. That the team just wasn't functioning as well with Timelord in the starting lineup.

Well, we gave it like a game or two. We didn't give it a long look, especially with Timelord coming off the injury.

And it didn't even have to be every game. But it was SO OBVIOUS this series that we should've been at the very least playing him more, as our rim protection was just non-existent. Also, the double big lineup allows Timelord to play more freely and challenge at the rim, ESPECIALLY with a player like PJ who he can realistically cheat off of. I think we'd seen maybe a minute of the Horford/Timelord pairing before tonight?

I remember the big lineup getting a long look early in the season and being quite frustrated at how badly it was going.

So I looked it up and Timelord had 18 straight starts (beside his odd rest night) after he moved back into the starting lineup. I didn't check each one but I checked a few random ones and Horford was in each one so I presume Al was there most of the time.

[Who]

Different day, same result.  Every single shortcoming Joe has shown in the regular season is showing itself in the playoffs.  The guy is just clueless and he's consistently failed to get the most out of this incredibly talented roster.

Looks like he talked them into playing defense tonight. So that’s good, right?

The lineup change is worthy of some praise. That shook up the team in a positive way.

How much credit do we give him for doing something he should have been doing all along?  It only took him 12 games, I guess.

I don't know that it is something Mazzula should have been doing all along. I've seen that mentioned a few times.

We started the season great without Timelord. He came back, we worked him back into the team, brought him back into the starting lineup and the team struggled. And struggled some more.

I know I was happy when they went back to the two guard lineup that was working so well earlier in the season. That the team just wasn't functioning as well with Timelord in the starting lineup.

The team is 16–5 when Timelord started this season.  The team didn't really struggle with him as a starter. In fact, the team was significantly better down the stretch with him as a starter than otherwise.

I know that Joe has been gaslighting us all season, but our team plays better with its defensive backbone.

Ah interesting. I am wrong. I remembered wrong.

[GreenBoomer]

Joe won a challenge tonight. Things are looking up.

[Who]

And it didn't even have to be every game. But it was SO OBVIOUS this series that we should've been at the very least playing him more, as our rim protection was just non-existent. Also, the double big lineup allows Timelord to play more freely and challenge at the rim, ESPECIALLY with a player like PJ who he can realistically cheat off of. I think we'd seen maybe a minute of the Horford/Timelord pairing before tonight?

(1) I don't know that it was clear to start the two bigs from the beginning of the series. The team played very well against Philly in the regular season and caused them a lot of problems with their speed. I liked at the time and like now that we continued with that.

(2) A bad Gm 1 followed by two impressive wins. Everything is right in the world. Still happy with the minutes allocation. Things are working well.

So I have no issue with the lack of the double big combo through the first 3 games.

(3) Game 4 and game 5. This is where I am in agreement that Timelord should have been experimented with more in the double lineup. Things were going badly especially in game five when the team was down big. The double big lineup deserved some time to see if it could spark the team into life. It is fair to criticize him here.

(4) Mazzula responded in Gm 6. Maybe a game too late but still responded. Not only tried some minutes with the double big lineup but changed the starting lineup. Aggressive move. Ballsy. Worthy of some praise.

That is where I am at anyway.

[Who]

So the team is 22W and 7L when Timelord returns.

They play him off the bench and rest him the odd game here and there. The team's record is 28W and 12L when Timelord moves back into the starting lineup. So they were 6W and 5L with Timelord moving back into the rotation but comin off the bench.

The team is 45W and 19L when Timelord gets hurt and loses his starting spot. They were 17W and 7L in that time period. Roy said they were 14W and 5L (edit: Roy said 16-5 overall but 2 starts late in season) with Timelord as a starter with the others being rest games for Timelord presumably.

Timelord only out 8 games. Team goes W4 L4. Timelord does not get his starting spot back. Team finishes final 10 games with 8 wins and 2 losses. Timelord starts two of the final 3 games (all wins) winning both against Toronto due to injury and then resting others. So 5W and 3L in the games before Timelord starts and final game resting stars.

Yeah, looks a fair case that Timelord was unfairly taken out of the starting unit.

[gouki88]

So the team is 22W and 7L when Timelord returns.

They play him off the bench and rest him the odd game here and there. The team's record is 28W and 12L when Timelord moves back into the starting lineup. So they were 6W and 5L with Timelord moving back into the rotation but comin off the bench.

The team is 45W and 19L when Timelord gets hurt and loses his starting spot. They were 17W and 7L in that time period. Roy said they were 14W and 5L with Timelord as a starter with the others being rest games for Timelord presumably.

Timelord only out 8 games. Team goes W4 L4. Timelord does not get his starting spot back. Team finishes final 10 games with 8 wins and 2 losses. Timelord starts two of the final 3 games (all wins) winning both against Toronto due to injury and then resting others. So 5W and 3L in the games before Timelord starts and final game resting stars.

Yeah, looks a fair case that Timelord was unfairly taken out of the starting unit.

I think this is where I live too. I think TL alongside Al is our best combo, even if our backup big stocks are a bit hampered. His impact is just so immense

[jpotter33]

And it didn't even have to be every game. But it was SO OBVIOUS this series that we should've been at the very least playing him more, as our rim protection was just non-existent. Also, the double big lineup allows Timelord to play more freely and challenge at the rim, ESPECIALLY with a player like PJ who he can realistically cheat off of. I think we'd seen maybe a minute of the Horford/Timelord pairing before tonight?

(1) I don't know that it was clear to start the two bigs from the beginning of the series. The team played very well against Philly in the regular season and caused them a lot of problems with their speed. I liked at the time and like now that we continued with that.

(2) A bad Gm 1 followed by two impressive wins. Everything is right in the world. Still happy with the minutes allocation. Things are working well.

So I have no issue with the lack of the double big combo through the first 3 games.

(3) Game 4 and game 5. This is where I am in agreement that Timelord should have been experimented with more in the double lineup. Things were going badly especially in game five when the team was down big. The double big lineup deserved some time to see if it could spark the team into life. It is fair to criticize him here.

(4) Mazzula responded in Gm 6. Maybe a game too late but still responded. Not only tried some minutes with the double big lineup but changed the starting lineup. Aggressive move. Ballsy. Worthy of some praise.

That is where I am at anyway.

Oh, I agree with you it definitely wasn't from the start. Perhaps not even after Game 1 (sans Embiid) or Game 2, but you could see the deficiencies starting in Game 3 even in a win. It was a failure that we didn't even experiment with it in Games 3, 4, and 5, especially the latter two that we were down most of the games.

Interestingly, I went back and looked at our starters for each of the Philly games this year, and there was no consistency due to injuries:

Game 1 - Boston win with the small lineup of Smart, White, JB, JT, and Horford (Timelord injured)

Game 2 - Boston win with super small lineup of White, JB, JT, GWill, and Griffin (Smart, Timelord, and Al injured)

Game 3 - Boston win with the big lineup of Smart, JB, JT, Al, and Rob (fully healthy game)

Game 4 - Boston loss with bigger lineup of Smart, White, JT, GWill, and Al (JB and Timelord out)

So there was no real precedent for what worked with the bigs this season given all the injuries and only one game with both Al and Rob healthy - a last second win.

EDIT: But after seeing your other post, it does look clear that Timelord was unfairly moved from the starting lineup. And you can tell he just doesn't fit as well coming off the bench with that group. Not surprising.

[Who]

So they are 16-5 with Timelord starting. That is a 62 win pace. And were 41W and 20L without Timelord starting. That is a 55 win pace.

[SparzWizard]

And it didn't even have to be every game. But it was SO OBVIOUS this series that we should've been at the very least playing him more, as our rim protection was just non-existent. Also, the double big lineup allows Timelord to play more freely and challenge at the rim, ESPECIALLY with a player like PJ who he can realistically cheat off of. I think we'd seen maybe a minute of the Horford/Timelord pairing before tonight?

(1) I don't know that it was clear to start the two bigs from the beginning of the series. The team played very well against Philly in the regular season and caused them a lot of problems with their speed. I liked at the time and like now that we continued with that.

(2) A bad Gm 1 followed by two impressive wins. Everything is right in the world. Still happy with the minutes allocation. Things are working well.

So I have no issue with the lack of the double big combo through the first 3 games.

(3) Game 4 and game 5. This is where I am in agreement that Timelord should have been experimented with more in the double lineup. Things were going badly especially in game five when the team was down big. The double big lineup deserved some time to see if it could spark the team into life. It is fair to criticize him here.

(4) Mazzula responded in Gm 6. Maybe a game too late but still responded. Not only tried some minutes with the double big lineup but changed the starting lineup. Aggressive move. Ballsy. Worthy of some praise.

That is where I am at anyway.

Oh, I agree with you it definitely wasn't from the start. Perhaps not even after Game 1 (sans Embiid) or Game 2, but you could see the deficiencies starting in Game 3 even in a win. It was a failure that we didn't even experiment with it in Games 3, 4, and 5, especially the latter two that we were down most of the games.

Interestingly, I went back and looked at our starters for each of the Philly games this year, and there was no consistency due to injuries:

Game 1 - Boston win with the small lineup of Smart, White, JB, JT, and Horford (Timelord injured)

Game 2 - Boston win with super small lineup of White, JB, JT, GWill, and Griffin (Smart, Timelord, and Al injured)

Game 3 - Boston win with the big lineup of Smart, JB, JT, Al, and Rob (fully healthy game)

Game 4 - Boston loss with bigger lineup of Smart, White, JT, GWill, and Al (JB and Timelord out)

So there was no real precedent for what worked with the bigs this season given all the injuries and only one game with both Al and Rob healthy - a last second win.

EDIT: But after seeing your other post, it does look clear that Timelord was unfairly moved from the starting lineup. And you can tell he just doesn't fit as well coming off the bench with that group. Not surprising.

Joe is thinking too hard over this. Just start Timelord.

[SCeltic34]

This series would be over already if we had better coaching.  We'd be waiting for the winner of the Knicks vs Heat series.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I don't think Robert Williams was coming off the bench purely because of match up or "demotion" aspects. I think it was a combination of shortening rotation (less bigs playing in playoffs) and Williams still battling knee issues coming into the playoffs.

In order for the Horford/Timelord combo to work, they need to play big minutes. Horford played 39 minutes tonight, Timelord 28... both above normal for them. Which is all good and dandy as long as they hold up physically and stay out of foul trouble... which is a concern.

I did see Robert having some issues getting down the floor in both ends at times, so that's something we need to be careful about. But I think the main aspect on why the rotation has been as it is, is mainly due to the lack of 3 men big rotation at the moment.