Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[tenn_smoothie]

I don't think Brad values toughness as much as he does skill and athleticism (part of his downfall as coach).
I have little faith in Brad to shake up this team the way it needs , coaches and players.
A huge fear beyond that is ownership. Wyc & Co. don't impress me as win #18 at all costs.
They don't impress me as owners who are going to step in and take control of a sinking ship.

I don't know about that. If you notice, Wyc and Pagliuca have put themselves in the prime seats in the house, first row next to the bench and that's telling the world 'this is our baby'. (not to mention costing the team some prime revenue). If the C's crash out they will be embarrassed (at least they should). I think that will prompt action.

You don't know how much I want you to be right and me to be wrong about this.

[j804]

If they bring Joe and the same cast back next season, nothing will change.

I highly doubt they make no changes / additions to the coaching staff

An experienced ex head coach as our assistant still isn’t going to change a thing. Joe comes off as always wanting to be right and have things done his way even if the ship sinks with him as we’re seeing so far. His system is all offense he’s clearly not preaching defense and guys just aren’t playing hard for him. He lacks adjustments it’s just been a disaster.

[SparzWizard]

If they bring Joe and the same cast back next season, nothing will change.

I highly doubt they make no changes / additions to the coaching staff

An experienced ex head coach as our assistant still isn’t going to change a thing. Joe comes off as always wanting to be right and have things done his way even if the ship sinks with him as we’re seeing so far. His system is all offense he’s clearly not preaching defense and guys just aren’t playing hard for him. He lacks adjustments it’s just been a disaster.

"We're not taking enough 3's. Stop playing defense. We need to take more 3's!"

[tenn_smoothie]

Interesting article on ESPN site by Windhorst that gives an accurate analysis comparing Ime's team and Joe's team.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37593391/last-year-how-celtics-save-their-season

Emphasis on defense vs emphasis on offense.
Player rotations that support the difference in team playing styles.
Ime played more of Rob & Horford & Grant due to their defensive prowess.
Joe is sitting Grant and Rob more and playing the shooters (when they are making shots that is).
Joe's doomed philosophy of shooting more 3's than your opponent vs Ime's dependence on a more reliable factor - defense.
The Celtics decline from the #2 defensive team in the playoffs last year to #10 this year.

Another failure of Brad's in all this was replacing a defensive-minded coach with an offensive-minded coach. He is probably more aligned with Joe in his basketball philosophy, given his own love of small-ball and 3-point shooting. His offensive acquisition of Brogdon (which bolstered the offense) and his failure to add a strong defender/rebounder in the post says a lot about Brad's thinking. No reason we should not have filled both those needs. We are currently committed to living by the 3-point shot and it ain't working.

[tenn_smoothie]

If they bring Joe and the same cast back next season, nothing will change.

I highly doubt they make no changes / additions to the coaching staff

An experienced ex head coach as our assistant still isn’t going to change a thing. Joe comes off as always wanting to be right and have things done his way even if the ship sinks with him as we’re seeing so far. His system is all offense he’s clearly not preaching defense and guys just aren’t playing hard for him. He lacks adjustments it’s just been a disaster.

Plus, if one plan for improvement is to allow Joe to hire his own staff, it will make things worse.
You think Mazzulla is gonna hire any assistants who stress defense or disagree with him ?

[cman88]

Not saying Joe is amazing but fans have a fairytale view of Ime Udoka and last year's playoffs.

As if we didn't do the same thing all playoff last year. Down 3-2 against Milwaukee, going 7 against Miami, then blowing the finals against golden state (and utilizing the same drop coverage). And wasn't .500 at all-star break before they went on an incredible run..

At some point it's the players and not the coaching. And when this group does the same thing over and over it's a pattern.

This team acts.

A. Like they've never been here before in the playoffs

B. As if they are so good they can walk on the court after a big win and the other team will just give up.

It caught up to them last year in the finals. Will it catch up to them tonight?

[greg683x]

There’s plenty of reasons to be upset with Joes coaching, but if I’m Brad and the rest of the front office, the thing that would concern me the most is that Joe at times doesn’t seem to be in control of his emotions, whether its positive or negative.  His gloating in front of the press after the game 2 win seemed premature and obnoxious, which on the surface isn’t the end of the world.  But after the game 4 loss, which to be honest, even though we all wanted it, we didn’t HAVE to win that game, we already stole home court back, Jeff left the podium after speaking the press, reportedly telling himself over and over ‘Im the worst coach ever.’   Which just seems very odd.

I feel like the Xs and Os and philosophy can be addressed with experience and growth (though I’m sure most agree we don’t have time for growing pains) but these hints of emotional instability I think are pretty concerning.  Players need a coach that’s very even keel, someone that knows when to overreact and also when to celebrate.  Joe does not seem like that guy, and I’d say given his behavioral history in college, this isn’t something new.  The pressure is only to get worse for this guy, and I don’t think he’s going to be able to handle it

[Neurotic Guy]

Not saying Joe is amazing but fans have a fairytale view of Ime Udoka and last year's playoffs.

As if we didn't do the same thing all playoff last year. Down 3-2 against Milwaukee, going 7 against Miami, then blowing the finals against golden state (and utilizing the same drop coverage). And wasn't .500 at all-star break before they went on an incredible run..

At some point it's the players and not the coaching. And when this group does the same thing over and over it's a pattern.

This team acts.

A. Like they've never been here before in the playoffs

B. As if they are so good they can walk on the court after a big win and the other team will just give up.

It caught up to them last year in the finals. Will it catch up to them tonight?

All true.  Though Cs played lockdown defense last year in a way I haven’t seen this year. And weren’t as reliant on the three. But yes the playoffs was not a cakewalk.   In fact we all know that the Cs very nearly blew Game 7 v. Miami, and Butler’s final shot would have sent them home.

[Roy H.]

Any truth to the rumor that the players held a players only meeting, during which they just watched the scene from Varsity Blues -- where the team forces the head coach to quit and then wins the title -- over and over again?

[Mahk E Mahk]

imho, this predicament is a result of unchecked arrogance. four examples (apologies for the length):

1) danny’s exit seemed to be a result of a power play by brad. i think brad made it clear to wyc that he was done coaching and threatened that he was leaving the organization. wyc panicked at the thought of losing the boy wonder and moved on from danny in an awkwardly and hastily orchestrated organizational shuffle that belied the C’s typically disciplined and thoughtful approach to organizational matters. brad arrogantly forced wyc’s hand to seize control. it’s doubtful brad, who was merely a college coach just a few short years earlier and had no nba front office experience, was ready for the preeminent GM job in the nba, one of the highest profile GM roles in all of professional sports.

2) firing ime was also driven by arrogance. clearly, ime’s “crimes” weren’t as egregious as the C’s implied, as evidenced by his rather quick hire by the rockets, with no pushback from the nba. brad and wyc overreacted in firing ime in an attempt to seem virtuous, decisive, and progressive. a suspension would have been more appropriate, leaving joe as a short term interim. if brad and wyc actually fired ime out of respect for women, and in virtuous opposition to harassment, they don’t replace ime with a guy who had a domestic battery charge against a woman. considering these horrible optics, doing so was an arrogantly audacious move. one has to wonder if brad was concerned that he couldn’t control ime, and jumped at the opportunity to fire him when a justifiable reason presented itself, quickly replacing him with a weak and inexperienced coach he knew he could control.

3) making joe the permanent HC far too quickly and haphazardly. this is a championship caliber team with a finite window; turning the reins over to a third assistant who lacks serious HC experience was arrogant irresponsibility. brad arrogantly thought he’d built such an exemplary roster that the HC was a superfluous afterthought. furthermore, if rookie joe wins a title in his first season as HC, with his demonstrated faults and weaknesses, the press will laud brad as the genius GM who built a championship roster so good it won with a wildly inexperienced HC.

4) even if the C’s lose tomorrow, joe will not be fired. letting joe go so quickly would be an admission by brad and wyc that they made a mistake and squandered another season. instead, they will double down on the hire, sing joe’s praises during the offseason, and slightly retool the roster, which will send a subtle message that the blame lies with the exiting players, not the HC.

1) Naw, I don't think Brad had anything to do with it. I think it was a mutual thing. Danny had some health issues and has always wanted to get back home to Utah. He also was growing stale with us here, so we needed a change of pace. It seemed like a mutually agreed decision that was right for both parties. (I'll also say that I'm overall a big fan of Stevens as GM. Outside of the Joe move and letting some of the TPEs expire - which we don't know what the parameters were from ownership surrounding those issues - I've overall liked his tenure as GM.)

2) There was a rumor that the involved woman was the wife of one of the Celtics' employees, a higher up one at that. This is the only thing that makes sense to me. I'm sure there was some badgering or unwanted advances/harassment at the end of the affair, but the fact that he was so quickly hired after the fact makes it seem like it was something that wasn't so egregious as to be a career-ender. It would make sense if it was with a spouse of an employee, as we obviously couldn't bring him back in that situation but he could still realistically coach elsewhere, especially in the current sociopolitical environment.

3) Yep, total mistake removing the interim tag from Joe so soon. Supposedly Brad's thought was he didn't want Joe feeling pressure during the playoffs, but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems like a year long probationary period would be just fine and not overly burdensome when coaching in the playoffs. It obviously hasn't worked out that way, either.

4) Yeah, as much as I would like to see it, I don't think he's fired unless one/both of the Jays aren't big fans of his. Let's just hope for the love of God that if he's not fired that we can actually get some more experienced assistants around him. I think that's just as much of a factor in Joe's issues as his inexperience himself, as even the best coaches have the assistance of their assistant coaches to rely on.

1) i much prefer your pov to mine. i just have an odd sense about brad, and danny leaving for purported family reasons, only to resurface so quickly in utah, didn’t help my skepticism.

2) i agree the relationship of the alleged woman did complicate matters.

3) if tonight’s game goes horribly wrong, the premature removal of the interim tag creates a real dilemma this offseason.

4) i deleted a few sentences predicting the addition of some seriously tenured and respected assistants to bolster joe’s weaknesses (my post was already too long).

[mobilija]

Any truth to the rumor that the players held a players only meeting, during which they just watched the scene from Varsity Blues -- where the team forces the head coach to quit and then wins the title -- over and over again?

Where'd you see this?

Unless MattyIce can corroborate it....I don't believe it.

Or maybe ur joking.....

[Roy H.]

2) There was a rumor that the involved woman was the wife of one of the Celtics' employees, a higher up one at that. This is the only thing that makes sense to me. I'm sure there was some badgering or unwanted advances/harassment at the end of the affair, but the fact that he was so quickly hired after the fact makes it seem like it was something that wasn't so egregious as to be a career-ender. It would make sense if it was with a spouse of an employee, as we obviously couldn't bring him back in that situation but he could still realistically coach elsewhere, especially in the current sociopolitical environment.

For whatever it's worth, the husband of the reported accuser was a former employee who only worked for the Celtics for three months in 2014.  He does now work at one of the Celtics corporate partners.  ("He has been employed as a consultant associate at the prestigious asset management firm Mercer for the past five years. His Facebook bio says he is a former Analyst at Whipstitch Capital ").  However, Mercer Capital is involved with all kinds of sports franchises:  https://mercercapital.com/content/uploads/Mercer-Capital-Professional-Sports.pdf

[Roy H.]

Any truth to the rumor that the players held a players only meeting, during which they just watched the scene from Varsity Blues -- where the team forces the head coach to quit and then wins the title -- over and over again?

Where'd you see this?

Unless MattyIce can corroborate it....I don't believe it.

Or maybe ur joking.....

Yes, that's a joke.  Coach Joe is much more incompetent than Coach Kilmer.

[jpotter33]

Interesting article on ESPN site by Windhorst that gives an accurate analysis comparing Ime's team and Joe's team.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37593391/last-year-how-celtics-save-their-season

Emphasis on defense vs emphasis on offense.
Player rotations that support the difference in team playing styles.
Ime played more of Rob & Horford & Grant due to their defensive prowess.
Joe is sitting Grant and Rob more and playing the shooters (when they are making shots that is).
Joe's doomed philosophy of shooting more 3's than your opponent vs Ime's dependence on a more reliable factor - defense.
The Celtics decline from the #2 defensive team in the playoffs last year to #10 this year.

Another failure of Brad's in all this was replacing a defensive-minded coach with an offensive-minded coach. He is probably more aligned with Joe in his basketball philosophy, given his own love of small-ball and 3-point shooting. His offensive acquisition of Brogdon (which bolstered the offense) and his failure to add a strong defender/rebounder in the post says a lot about Brad's thinking. No reason we should not have filled both those needs. We are currently committed to living by the 3-point shot and it ain't working.

TP. Great analysis by Windhorst that a lot of us have been discussing all year. But Joe’s extreme focus abd over-reliance on the offense has become even more blatant in the playoffs, which is such a big failure abd indicative of a poor, inexperienced coach who is dogmatic and unwilling to see other perspectives.

I’ll also say that I think a lot of Rob’s and Grant’s lackluster years have been directly due to how Joe plays them. He do deprioritizes the defense that their role is very limited, and it’s really killed our depth. I won’t be surprised to see GWill walk for nothing this year given how awful Joe has been with using him.

[angryguy77]

Interesting article on ESPN site by Windhorst that gives an accurate analysis comparing Ime's team and Joe's team.

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/id/37593391/last-year-how-celtics-save-their-season

Emphasis on defense vs emphasis on offense.
Player rotations that support the difference in team playing styles.
Ime played more of Rob & Horford & Grant due to their defensive prowess.
Joe is sitting Grant and Rob more and playing the shooters (when they are making shots that is).
Joe's doomed philosophy of shooting more 3's than your opponent vs Ime's dependence on a more reliable factor - defense.
The Celtics decline from the #2 defensive team in the playoffs last year to #10 this year.

Another failure of Brad's in all this was replacing a defensive-minded coach with an offensive-minded coach. He is probably more aligned with Joe in his basketball philosophy, given his own love of small-ball and 3-point shooting. His offensive acquisition of Brogdon (which bolstered the offense) and his failure to add a strong defender/rebounder in the post says a lot about Brad's thinking. No reason we should not have filled both those needs. We are currently committed to living by the 3-point shot and it ain't working.

TP. Great analysis by Windhorst that a lot of us have been discussing all year. But Joe’s extreme focus abd over-reliance on the offense has become even more blatant in the playoffs, which is such a big failure abd indicative of a poor, inexperienced coach who is dogmatic and unwilling to see other perspectives.

I’ll also say that I think a lot of Rob’s and Grant’s lackluster years have been directly due to how Joe plays them. He do deprioritizes the defense that their role is very limited, and it’s really killed our depth. I won’t be surprised to see GWill walk for nothing this year given how awful Joe has been with using him.

Joe would make a great addition to the Monstars.