Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[86MaxwellSmart]

Let's just kick him upstairs to assistant assistant GM

[gouki88]

Good Bill Simmons and KOC podcast talking about some of the coaching staff’s failings: https://www.theringer.com/the-bill-simmons-podcast/2023/5/10/23718139/celtics-rock-bottom-76ers-joel-embiid-golden-state-warriors-crossroads.

Feels like it’s just been a perfect storm for our coaching woes. Between promoting an unqualified assistant to the significant brain drain, this has been a major failing by Brad and ownership to not surround an inexperienced coach with the help he needs, and we’re clearly paying for it now by (gulp) getting out coached by Doc Stinking Rivers.

The mass exodus of coaching talent has really hurt. Ime and Hardy obviously, but also Stoudemire. It's a lot to lose

[Kernewek]

Not particularly, but I'm on the record as being pretty ambivalent about coaches in general. He's not my favourite coach, but I don't think we've gone from Kerr to Mark Jackson or anything. I attribute our season more to Timelord starting the season unhealthy, Horford being old, and Smart coasting a bit for the first time in his career.

In this game, coaching doesn't always matter, but for some teams it absolutely matters. It depends on who you have on the court. This group needs a coach, they have shown without a strong leadership that they fall apart.

I don't think the Heat are getting to the ECF with a lesser coach. While coaching may not matter as much when you're talking about the MJ bulls or Kobe/Shaq lakers, it does matter to teams with a core like ours. They need that helicopter parent, otherwise they're going to eat the crayons if left alone.

It’s very possible, but the games have yet to play out. You know me: I prefer to evaluate after the dust has settled.

[Kuberski33]

Personally I would be amazed if they fire him. Doesn't strike me as Brad's style at all. I don't think they're championship or bust when it comes to Joe (unlike us). Given the circumstances of his hiring and where he delivered the Celtics his first year, it would be very out of character for Brad to fire him on that basis. The only circumstance that I could see them firing him is if they decided he's not going to improve going forward and/or that he's lost the locker room and/or he committed some violation of team rules.

So we're probably stuck with Joe for at least another year, maybe two. Hopefully he'll be better next year than he was this year, learn from some of the mistakes. Maybe they should parade some hotties around him and hope he pulls an Ime so they can flick him on that basis 

Any decision to fire Joe won't come from Brad. It will come from ownership.

Joe has received all the necessary tools to win a title and the team has been underachieving. He's ignored several key players on his bench, overused others and wonders why there has been inconsistent play. Brad got him Muscala and Joe never played him. And he's made a lot of mistakes in managing games.

I think coaching is the main reason this team is on the brink of elimination.

[SparzWizard]

Personally I would be amazed if they fire him. Doesn't strike me as Brad's style at all. I don't think they're championship or bust when it comes to Joe (unlike us). Given the circumstances of his hiring and where he delivered the Celtics his first year, it would be very out of character for Brad to fire him on that basis. The only circumstance that I could see them firing him is if they decided he's not going to improve going forward and/or that he's lost the locker room and/or he committed some violation of team rules.

So we're probably stuck with Joe for at least another year, maybe two. Hopefully he'll be better next year than he was this year, learn from some of the mistakes. Maybe they should parade some hotties around him and hope he pulls an Ime so they can flick him on that basis 

Any decision to fire Joe won't come from Brad. It will come from ownership.

Joe has received all the necessary tools to win a title and the team has been underachieving. He's ignored several key players on his bench, overused others and wonders why there has been inconsistent play. Brad got him Muscala and Joe never played him. And he's made a lot of mistakes in managing games.

I think coaching is the main reason this team is on the brink of elimination.

And as a coach, he lacks accountability for his team. It's irritating.

[Kuberski33]

Also this team is soft as grape inside and his one guy who can mix it up with the PJ Tuckers of the world in the paint (Grant) hardly plays anymore.  It's just aggravating watching this idiot run a game night after night.

[tenn_smoothie]

I don't think Brad values toughness as much as he does skill and athleticism (part of his downfall as coach).
I have little faith in Brad to shake up this team the way it needs , coaches and players.
A huge fear beyond that is ownership. Wyc & Co. don't impress me as win #18 at all costs.
They don't impress me as owners who are going to step in and take control of a sinking ship.

[Big333223]

There is an absolute zero chance Joe gets fired. Given the situation he stepped in to and the regular season success the team had they have to give him a year where he can actually pick his staff and see how it goes. Even if they get blown out tomorrow, Joe will definitely be the head coach next year.

Unless he's been having an affair with his secretary, I guess.

[Mahk E Mahk]

imho, this predicament is a result of unchecked arrogance. four examples (apologies for the length):

1) danny’s exit seemed to be a result of a power play by brad. i think brad made it clear to wyc that he was done coaching and threatened that he was leaving the organization. wyc panicked at the thought of losing the boy wonder and moved on from danny in an awkwardly and hastily orchestrated organizational shuffle that belied the C’s typically disciplined and thoughtful approach to organizational matters. brad arrogantly forced wyc’s hand to seize control. it’s doubtful brad, who was merely a college coach just a few short years earlier and had no nba front office experience, was ready for the preeminent GM job in the nba, one of the highest profile GM roles in all of professional sports.

2) firing ime was also driven by arrogance. clearly, ime’s “crimes” weren’t as egregious as the C’s implied, as evidenced by his rather quick hire by the rockets, with no pushback from the nba. brad and wyc overreacted in firing ime in an attempt to seem virtuous, decisive, and progressive. a suspension would have been more appropriate, leaving joe as a short term interim. if brad and wyc actually fired ime out of respect for women, and in virtuous opposition to harassment, they don’t replace ime with a guy who had a domestic battery charge against a woman. considering these horrible optics, doing so was an arrogantly audacious move. one has to wonder if brad was concerned that he couldn’t control ime, and jumped at the opportunity to fire him when a justifiable reason presented itself, quickly replacing him with a weak and inexperienced coach he knew he could control.

3) making joe the permanent HC far too quickly and haphazardly. this is a championship caliber team with a finite window; turning the reins over to a third assistant who lacks serious HC experience was arrogant irresponsibility. brad arrogantly thought he’d built such an exemplary roster that the HC was a superfluous afterthought. furthermore, if rookie joe wins a title in his first season as HC, with his demonstrated faults and weaknesses, the press will laud brad as the genius GM who built a championship roster so good it won with a wildly inexperienced HC.

4) even if the C’s lose tomorrow, joe will not be fired. letting joe go so quickly would be an admission by brad and wyc that they made a mistake and squandered another season. instead, they will double down on the hire, sing joe’s praises during the offseason, and slightly retool the roster, which will send a subtle message that the blame lies with the exiting players, not the HC.

[Kuberski33]

If they bring Joe and the same cast back next season, nothing will change.

[Kuberski33]

I don't think Brad values toughness as much as he does skill and athleticism (part of his downfall as coach).
I have little faith in Brad to shake up this team the way it needs , coaches and players.
A huge fear beyond that is ownership. Wyc & Co. don't impress me as win #18 at all costs.
They don't impress me as owners who are going to step in and take control of a sinking ship.

I don't know about that. If you notice, Wyc and Pagliuca have put themselves in the prime seats in the house, first row next to the bench and that's telling the world 'this is our baby'. (not to mention costing the team some prime revenue). If the C's crash out they will be embarrassed (at least they should be). I think that will prompt some action.

These guys have egos.

[86MaxwellSmart]

If they bring Joe and the same cast back next season, nothing will change.

While all these young teams will improve...Cavs, Knicks, Orlando, etc.

[gouki88]

If they bring Joe and the same cast back next season, nothing will change.

I highly doubt they make no changes / additions to the coaching staff

[angryguy77]

imho, this predicament is a result of unchecked arrogance. four examples (apologies for the length):

1) danny’s exit seemed to be a result of a power play by brad. i think brad made it clear to wyc that he was done coaching and threatened that he was leaving the organization. wyc panicked at the thought of losing the boy wonder and moved on from danny in an awkwardly and hastily orchestrated organizational shuffle that belied the C’s typically disciplined and thoughtful approach to organizational matters. brad arrogantly forced wyc’s hand to seize control. it’s doubtful brad, who was merely a college coach just a few short years earlier and had no nba front office experience, was ready for the preeminent GM job in the nba, one of the highest profile GM roles in all of professional sports.

2) firing ime was also driven by arrogance. clearly, ime’s “crimes” weren’t as egregious as the C’s implied, as evidenced by his rather quick hire by the rockets, with no pushback from the nba. brad and wyc overreacted in firing ime in an attempt to seem virtuous, decisive, and progressive. a suspension would have been more appropriate, leaving joe as a short term interim. if brad and wyc actually fired ime out of respect for women, and in virtuous opposition to harassment, they don’t replace ime with a guy who had a domestic battery charge against a woman. considering these horrible optics, doing so was an arrogantly audacious move. one has to wonder if brad was concerned that he couldn’t control ime, and jumped at the opportunity to fire him when a justifiable reason presented itself, quickly replacing him with a weak and inexperienced coach he knew he could control.

3) making joe the permanent HC far too quickly and haphazardly. this is a championship caliber team with a finite window; turning the reins over to a third assistant who lacks serious HC experience was arrogant irresponsibility. brad arrogantly thought he’d built such an exemplary roster that the HC was a superfluous afterthought. furthermore, if rookie joe wins a title in his first season as HC, with his demonstrated faults and weaknesses, the press will laud brad as the genius GM who built a championship roster so good it won with a wildly inexperienced HC.

4) even if the C’s lose tomorrow, joe will not be fired. letting joe go so quickly would be an admission by brad and wyc that they made a mistake and squandered another season. instead, they will double down on the hire, sing joe’s praises during the offseason, and slightly retool the roster, which will send a subtle message that the blame lies with the exiting players, not the HC.

I'd DA's exit went down as you theorize, it makes his trade with LA make more sense. Didnhe do it as s middle finger to the franchise? Idk, just kicking around some thoughts.

[jpotter33]

imho, this predicament is a result of unchecked arrogance. four examples (apologies for the length):

1) danny’s exit seemed to be a result of a power play by brad. i think brad made it clear to wyc that he was done coaching and threatened that he was leaving the organization. wyc panicked at the thought of losing the boy wonder and moved on from danny in an awkwardly and hastily orchestrated organizational shuffle that belied the C’s typically disciplined and thoughtful approach to organizational matters. brad arrogantly forced wyc’s hand to seize control. it’s doubtful brad, who was merely a college coach just a few short years earlier and had no nba front office experience, was ready for the preeminent GM job in the nba, one of the highest profile GM roles in all of professional sports.

2) firing ime was also driven by arrogance. clearly, ime’s “crimes” weren’t as egregious as the C’s implied, as evidenced by his rather quick hire by the rockets, with no pushback from the nba. brad and wyc overreacted in firing ime in an attempt to seem virtuous, decisive, and progressive. a suspension would have been more appropriate, leaving joe as a short term interim. if brad and wyc actually fired ime out of respect for women, and in virtuous opposition to harassment, they don’t replace ime with a guy who had a domestic battery charge against a woman. considering these horrible optics, doing so was an arrogantly audacious move. one has to wonder if brad was concerned that he couldn’t control ime, and jumped at the opportunity to fire him when a justifiable reason presented itself, quickly replacing him with a weak and inexperienced coach he knew he could control.

3) making joe the permanent HC far too quickly and haphazardly. this is a championship caliber team with a finite window; turning the reins over to a third assistant who lacks serious HC experience was arrogant irresponsibility. brad arrogantly thought he’d built such an exemplary roster that the HC was a superfluous afterthought. furthermore, if rookie joe wins a title in his first season as HC, with his demonstrated faults and weaknesses, the press will laud brad as the genius GM who built a championship roster so good it won with a wildly inexperienced HC.

4) even if the C’s lose tomorrow, joe will not be fired. letting joe go so quickly would be an admission by brad and wyc that they made a mistake and squandered another season. instead, they will double down on the hire, sing joe’s praises during the offseason, and slightly retool the roster, which will send a subtle message that the blame lies with the exiting players, not the HC.

1) Naw, I don't think Brad had anything to do with it. I think it was a mutual thing. Danny had some health issues and has always wanted to get back home to Utah. He also was growing stale with us here, so we needed a change of pace. It seemed like a mutually agreed decision that was right for both parties. (I'll also say that I'm overall a big fan of Stevens as GM. Outside of the Joe move and letting some of the TPEs expire - which we don't know what the parameters were from ownership surrounding those issues - I've overall liked his tenure as GM.)

2) There was a rumor that the involved woman was the wife of one of the Celtics' employees, a higher up one at that. This is the only thing that makes sense to me. I'm sure there was some badgering or unwanted advances/harassment at the end of the affair, but the fact that he was so quickly hired after the fact makes it seem like it was something that wasn't so egregious as to be a career-ender. It would make sense if it was with a spouse of an employee, as we obviously couldn't bring him back in that situation but he could still realistically coach elsewhere, especially in the current sociopolitical environment.

3) Yep, total mistake removing the interim tag from Joe so soon. Supposedly Brad's thought was he didn't want Joe feeling pressure during the playoffs, but that doesn't make sense to me. It seems like a year long probationary period would be just fine and not overly burdensome when coaching in the playoffs. It obviously hasn't worked out that way, either.

4) Yeah, as much as I would like to see it, I don't think he's fired unless one/both of the Jays aren't big fans of his. Let's just hope for the love of God that if he's not fired that we can actually get some more experienced assistants around him. I think that's just as much of a factor in Joe's issues as his inexperience himself, as even the best coaches have the assistance of their assistant coaches to rely on.