Fire Joe! ... or critique Joe ... or defend Joe... or worry about Joe's coaching

[Kernewek]

But I think end of day, while Joe has culpability, we can't hide from the fact that our players collectively laid giant eggs on national TV twice in a row. And they choked in the 4th quarter. They weren't even making 2s, even though they were shooting a lot more of them. With this performance, it doesn't really matter what the plan is, if you shoot that bad no plan will work. They have to take the lion's share of blame, and have a good look at themselves in the mirror and ask themselves if this is the way they want to go out

This is a good point, Oz, but I think it also gets to the root of the panic: the Jays-era Celtics have always been such a coinflip squad in terms of the performance we can expect that there's never a good way to tell which version of the team you're going to get before tip off.

Remember, this was the 'between-the-lines' aspect of the team that trading away Smart, RW3 & Grant Williams was supposed to fix, right? If the team whimpers out in the second round, there's an argument* to be made that the 2023 squad might not have been better than the 2022 roster at all - just luckier.

*I'm not sure I buy that discussion point right now, but it's something to acknowledge.

[Who]

Joe has made some mistakes, sure?but the people solely blaming him are crazy.
We have had 20 point leads in both games and the players choked?mainly our *best player* and we have lost by a combined 4 pts
Tatum has shot just 29% from the field (12-of-42) and 25% from three-point range (5-of-20) through two games. He has attempted only nine free throws while committing eight turnovers in the series. Tatum had a PER of 29.1 in the first round and just 11.2 in the first two games of the second round.
Almost solely on this bum?.if he plays even average we are going to New York up 2-0

The players are far more to blame than the coaching staff for what has happened in these last 2 games against NYC.

Responsibility Index

Coaches = 5% or less
Players = 95% or more

[wdleehi]

How many wide open shots did the players miss in the 4th quarter?   How many bunnies smoked?   


The offense is creating open shots.   If the players just would hit slight less then NBA average on those, the Celtics are up 2-0.   

[Boston Garden Leprechaun]

How many wide open shots did the players miss in the 4th quarter?   How many bunnies smoked?   


The offense is creating open shots.   If the players just would hit slight less then NBA average on those, the Celtics are up 2-0.   

maybe some for GAME 2. game 1 we made lots of dumb and contested shots we had no business taking. we shoulda went inside. iot is not rocket science. it has been laid out ad infinitum here.

[RMO]

How many wide open shots did the players miss in the 4th quarter?   How many bunnies smoked?   


The offense is creating open shots.   If the players just would hit slight less then NBA average on those, the Celtics are up 2-0.   

That's the problem though.  Sometimes the shots aren't going to fall.  During the regular season it might cost you some games but over an 82 game season it's not that big of a deal.  Costing two games in a best of seven series is a major problem.  It's not having any kind of plan B that concerns me.

Two plays that really bug me and could have made a big difference considering the margin of victory in both games.  In Game 1, Jrue is on the side about seven feet from the basket with the nearest defender under the basket on the other side.  No one else is around.  Instead of taking the shot he kicks it out and someone misses a three (can't remember if it was passed once or twice but the resulting shot was a missed three).

The second was the one that's been going around where Tatum is in the corner, Brown underneath and someone (Brunson I think) is on the ground.  Tatum missed the three.  Why not recognize the situation and either pass to Brown or drive in?

[wdleehi]

How many wide open shots did the players miss in the 4th quarter?   How many bunnies smoked?   


The offense is creating open shots.   If the players just would hit slight less then NBA average on those, the Celtics are up 2-0.   

That's the problem though.  Sometimes the shots aren't going to fall.  During the regular season it might cost you some games but over an 82 game season it's not that big of a deal.  Costing two games in a best of seven series is a major problem.  It's not having any kind of plan B that concerns me.

Two plays that really bug me and could have made a big difference considering the margin of victory in both games.  In Game 1, Jrue is on the side about seven feet from the basket with the nearest defender under the basket on the other side.  No one else is around.  Instead of taking the shot he kicks it out and someone misses a three (can't remember if it was passed once or twice but the resulting shot was a missed three).

The second was the one that's been going around where Tatum is in the corner, Brown underneath and someone (Brunson I think) is on the ground.  Tatum missed the three.  Why not recognize the situation and either pass to Brown or drive in?

And how many bunnies did the Celtics smoke in the 4th quarter as well?   


It is on the players.   They need to shoot up to their ability.   

[Roy H.]

How many wide open shots did the players miss in the 4th quarter?   How many bunnies smoked?   


The offense is creating open shots.   If the players just would hit slight less then NBA average on those, the Celtics are up 2-0.   

That's the problem though.  Sometimes the shots aren't going to fall.  During the regular season it might cost you some games but over an 82 game season it's not that big of a deal.  Costing two games in a best of seven series is a major problem.  It's not having any kind of plan B that concerns me.

Two plays that really bug me and could have made a big difference considering the margin of victory in both games.  In Game 1, Jrue is on the side about seven feet from the basket with the nearest defender under the basket on the other side.  No one else is around.  Instead of taking the shot he kicks it out and someone misses a three (can't remember if it was passed once or twice but the resulting shot was a missed three).

The second was the one that's been going around where Tatum is in the corner, Brown underneath and someone (Brunson I think) is on the ground.  Tatum missed the three.  Why not recognize the situation and either pass to Brown or drive in?

And how many bunnies did the Celtics smoke in the 4th quarter as well?   


It is on the players.   They need to shoot up to their ability.

Yes, primarily.

But, not making any adjustments is on the coach.  Not calling a timeout at the end of the game is on the coach. 

[Goldstar88]

How many wide open shots did the players miss in the 4th quarter?   How many bunnies smoked?   


The offense is creating open shots.   If the players just would hit slight less then NBA average on those, the Celtics are up 2-0.   

The Celtics are shooting 36% from the field in this series. 

[Donoghus]

How many wide open shots did the players miss in the 4th quarter?   How many bunnies smoked?   


The offense is creating open shots.   If the players just would hit slight less then NBA average on those, the Celtics are up 2-0.   

That's the problem though.  Sometimes the shots aren't going to fall.  During the regular season it might cost you some games but over an 82 game season it's not that big of a deal.  Costing two games in a best of seven series is a major problem.  It's not having any kind of plan B that concerns me.

Two plays that really bug me and could have made a big difference considering the margin of victory in both games.  In Game 1, Jrue is on the side about seven feet from the basket with the nearest defender under the basket on the other side.  No one else is around.  Instead of taking the shot he kicks it out and someone misses a three (can't remember if it was passed once or twice but the resulting shot was a missed three).

The second was the one that's been going around where Tatum is in the corner, Brown underneath and someone (Brunson I think) is on the ground.  Tatum missed the three.  Why not recognize the situation and either pass to Brown or drive in?

And how many bunnies did the Celtics smoke in the 4th quarter as well?   


It is on the players.   They need to shoot up to their ability.

Yes, primarily.

But, not making any adjustments is on the coach.  Not calling a timeout at the end of the game is on the coach.

There's definitely culpability on both sides.  Personally, I weigh it more on the players than the coaching. It ultimately comes down to player execution in-game and the players aren't doing it but the coach isn't doing anything to remedy the situation or adjusting things to put them in a better place to win.

I'd probably peg blame somewhere at 70% players and 30% coaching. 

[jpotter33]

The players are playing the system they?ve been instructed to, and all year long Joe has pushed more, more, more from three just trying to spam the numbers game, which has led to terrible habits. All you have to do is look at White?s shot selection and what he?s been allowed to get away with all year long.

Yes, clearly the players have to hit shots. But it?s unreasonable to expect them to ALWAYS hit shots (especially the highly variable three point shot), and any good offense should have ways to counter those nights when we?re not hitting. But we clearly do not, and Joe readily admits this when he always points to margins and whether the shots go down as the indicator of what went wrong. He?s set in his ways and dogmatic to a fault.

Of course, Tatum and Brown both have to be better with their shot selection, decision-making and aggressiveness. Same with White and Jrue?s decision-making and shot selection. But our problems stem just as much from our one-dimensional gameplan and lack of adjustments from the coaching staff - let alone the obvious tactical errors that Joe has consistently made with play-calling (or lack thereof), fouling, timeouts, and rotations.

[Goldstar88]

The players are playing the system they?ve been instructed to, and all year long Joe has pushed more, more, more from three just trying to spam the numbers game, which has led to terrible habits. All you have to do is look at White?s shot selection and what he?s been allowed to get away with all year long.

Yes, clearly the players have to hit shots. But it?s unreasonable to expect them to ALWAYS hit shots (especially the highly variable three point shot), and any good offense should have ways to counter those nights when we?re not hitting. But we clearly do not, and Joe readily admits this when he always points to margins and whether the shots go down as the indicator of what went wrong. He?s set in his ways and dogmatic to a fault.

Of course, Tatum and Brown both have to be better with their shot selection, decision-making and aggressiveness. Same with White and Jrue?s decision-making and shot selection. But our problems stem just as much from our one-dimensional gameplan and lack of adjustments from the coaching staff - let alone the obvious tactical errors that Joe has consistently made with play-calling (or lack thereof), fouling, timeouts, and rotations.

But Potter, they took less and less threes last game. Went from 60 all the way down to 40 which is well below their average. Still shot 36% from the field. Still lost the game. 🤷‍♂️

[SHAQATTACK]

JT AND JB

Gonna join Bron and CP3 on the banana boat tour

[SparzWizard]

The players are playing the system they?ve been instructed to, and all year long Joe has pushed more, more, more from three just trying to spam the numbers game, which has led to terrible habits. All you have to do is look at White?s shot selection and what he?s been allowed to get away with all year long.

Yes, clearly the players have to hit shots. But it?s unreasonable to expect them to ALWAYS hit shots (especially the highly variable three point shot), and any good offense should have ways to counter those nights when we?re not hitting. But we clearly do not, and Joe readily admits this when he always points to margins and whether the shots go down as the indicator of what went wrong. He?s set in his ways and dogmatic to a fault.

Of course, Tatum and Brown both have to be better with their shot selection, decision-making and aggressiveness. Same with White and Jrue?s decision-making and shot selection. But our problems stem just as much from our one-dimensional gameplan and lack of adjustments from the coaching staff - let alone the obvious tactical errors that Joe has consistently made with play-calling (or lack thereof), fouling, timeouts, and rotations.

But Potter, they took less and less threes last game. Went from 60 all the way down to 40 which is well below their average. Still shot 36% from the field. Still lost the game. 🤷‍♂️

The fouling of Robinson and getting into the bonus with more than 2 minutes left was a brainddead decision and should be a very firable offense. Just give it up...stop defending Joe pleaseee lol

[Vermont Green]

Wow, almost up to 200 pages.

I have no problem with Mazzulla's substitutions, playing 8 (with no Hauser) or 9 (if Hauser is available) is about what any playoff team plays.  So that is fine in my mind.

The time outs are kind of like when a baseball manager decides to take out the starter or not.  Sometime the reliever comes in and gives up a walk and a HR and it is like, oh, that was so stupid.  Next time, you leave the starter in and he gives up the walk and HR.   Sometimes you don't call the TO and you catch the other team off guard, get an easy basket.  Or maybe you don't catch them off guard and you end up with sloppy execution.

I will say that I did not like the fouling of Mitchell.  I thought that was unnecessary.  But even that is after the fact second guessing.  But in general, I say just play.  I felt that Mazzulla over-thought that one.

I accept that coaches have good games and bad games, just like players.  I think Mazzulla could have coached better in the last two games.  But really, wasn't the problem that the players missed way too many shots?  That 31 turnovers in 2 games is too many?  That the players could have played way better?  Executed better, especially in the 4th? (15% 3P% and 20% FG% in the 4th overall for the 2 games).

[Kernewek]

The players are playing the system they?ve been instructed to, and all year long Joe has pushed more, more, more from three just trying to spam the numbers game, which has led to terrible habits. All you have to do is look at White?s shot selection and what he?s been allowed to get away with all year long.

Yes, clearly the players have to hit shots. But it?s unreasonable to expect them to ALWAYS hit shots (especially the highly variable three point shot), and any good offense should have ways to counter those nights when we?re not hitting. But we clearly do not, and Joe readily admits this when he always points to margins and whether the shots go down as the indicator of what went wrong. He?s set in his ways and dogmatic to a fault.

Of course, Tatum and Brown both have to be better with their shot selection, decision-making and aggressiveness. Same with White and Jrue?s decision-making and shot selection. But our problems stem just as much from our one-dimensional gameplan and lack of adjustments from the coaching staff - let alone the obvious tactical errors that Joe has consistently made with play-calling (or lack thereof), fouling, timeouts, and rotations.

It has been, what, two years since posters in this thread explained the reality of variability of two- and three-point shots. I know what you're saying, but let's try to be precise in what we mean.