Author Topic: NBA Season 2022-23  (Read 449727 times)

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Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #345 on: October 31, 2022, 05:19:58 PM »

Offline Vermont Green

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Hield and M Turner do not make LAL a contender. Maybe next year but not this year. The rest of their team is too badly constructed to get LAL into the title mix this season.

I would still do the deal if I were LAL. This is about as good an opportunity as they can hope to get to become a title contender again with LeBron on the roster. Worth taking.
You are probably correct, but that trade would make them a lot better this year, and with Lebron's age and Davis being made of glass, they can't just let seasons go by without trying something.  The Lakers haven't been willing to include both picks because they think they will be able to get something better for both picks and Westbrook.  And who knows, maybe they will be able to.  They could expand the trade with the Pacers though and get more useful players back

these all work financially, for example

Turner, Hield, Theis for Westbrook

Turner, Hield, McConnell for Westbrook

Turner, Hield, Theis, McConnell for Westbrook

Not that Theis or McConnell moves the needle a bunch, but they are solid veterans for the bench.  The Lakers can then consolidate some of their other contracts into other players that could be on the move

How do the salaries work with a traded player with respect to when during the season they're traded?

If Westbrook were traded now would the other team have to pay 76/82nds of his salary (accounting for the 76 games he'd be on their roster)?

So if they waited until the trade deadline they'd only owe him less than half of this year's salary?

That would seem like an incentive to teams, to also be able to save several millions of dollars.

But I may be wrong about how that works.

Yeah, you only have to pay the player for the portion of the season that they are on your team.  But that goes for the players you send out also.  Unless one team is using a TPE, the salaries incoming and outgoing are going to match more or less.

But if you bring in a player and he is on your roster at the end of the season, his salary counts towards your tax calculation at the full amount.  Or if you send out a contract, that comes off the tax calculation fully.

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #346 on: October 31, 2022, 08:18:18 PM »

Online Goldstar88

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Nets are looking a lot better tonight, without Ben Simmons. Wonder if they will consider bringing him off the bench.

Good game. Indy has some really nice young players. No one is talking about Bennedict Mathurin, but he could be the ROTY, averaging 21pts, 4.6rebs, 2.3ast while shooting 45% from the field and 43% from 3pt.

« Last Edit: October 31, 2022, 09:33:12 PM by Goldstar88 »
Quoting Nick from the now locked Ime thread:
Quote
At some point you have to blame the performance on the court on the players on the court. Every loss is not the coach's fault and every win isn't because of the players.

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #347 on: October 31, 2022, 10:40:49 PM »

Offline hpantazo

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Wow, the Jazz are kicking the crap out of Memphis so far tonight. The hot start continues!

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #348 on: November 01, 2022, 01:39:59 AM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Wow, the Jazz are kicking the crap out of Memphis so far tonight. The hot start continues!

Don't think it's sustainable, but we'll see. But man Lauri Markkanen is balling, I remember when he was having contract disputes with Chicago that we were entertaining the idea of bringing him here, but there really was no feasible way.

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #349 on: November 01, 2022, 04:54:34 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Mitchell might very well be the front runner for MVP right now.  Cavs are 5-1 and entering today he was averaging 31 p, 6.4 a, 4.8 r and is darn near a 50/40/90 shooter.  And of course today he only goes for 38 p, 12 a, 3 r shooting 60% from the field overall and 61.5% from 3.
So far for me the 4 standouts have been Spida, Giannis, Tatum & Doncic.
I wouldn't have Doncic there yet.  Mavs haven't been good enough at 2-3 and actually have been a lot better per 100 possessions with him on the bench.  Doncic has a -9.1 on/off differential per 100 possessions.  He is a poor defender and so ball dominant, that the Mavs often play better when he is on the bench.  Even last year his on/off differential was just a +0.2.  He obviously isn't just an empty stats guy, but to be as ball dominant as he is, you have to be a more complete player.  Guys like Lebron (in his prime), Giannis, etc. are just so much better defenders and just have a better knack for knowing when they need to take over and when to back off.  Doncic hasn't figured that out yet.
I understand the criticism, but it has no bearing on MVP voting (see Harden)
The year Harden won the MVP, his on/off differential per 100 possessions was +5.3.  Now that is lower than most MVP's, but it is good.  And that was one of his lower seasons in Houston.
Your reliance on on/off has led you to poor takes before, and is doing so again. His BPM is off the charts, for example.
A deeper look at lineup data would explain why Doncic's on/off has been so poor - there has only been 78 minutes of him sitting on the bench and the team has been shooting an insane 46.55% from three in those minutes. When you factor in the fact that Doncic is playing against the strongest lineups of opposing teams most of the time, it's easy to see why his raw +/- data has been poor for the calibre of player he is. I think he's approaching some of the ATG wing peaks (e.g. Kobe, Wade, KD, Kawhi, TMac, etc, perhaps West if you're low on the Logo) as an overall player with his improvements on both ends of the court under the tutelage of Jason Kidd.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #350 on: November 01, 2022, 04:59:17 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Gobert is probably catching flack here again for the Wolves' mediocre start to the season, but his defence is the reason why the team has even been alright so far - the Wolves have a defence that is 4 points better than league average with a backcourt of D'Angelo Russell and Anthony Edwards (it's not terrible by any means, but neither of them really move the needle on defence) and Karl-Anthony Towns playing as a forward.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #351 on: November 01, 2022, 05:04:26 AM »

Offline Somebody

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Nets now 1 win 5 losses.

I don't like Nash's starting five. Two low utility offensive players in O'Neale and Claxton is a bad fit next to Ben Simmons. Too much pressure on one-on-one play from Kyrie and Durant who are both putting up major numbers but the team ain't winning.

Ben Simmons with 9pts 8reb 9ast tonight. Better.
O'Neale has actually been doing quite well as an offensive player - he's been cutting and attacking off the catch in a way that makes KD's/Kyrie's lives much easier. Simmons' inability to score at all while being a subpar defender at the 5 due to his utter lack of rim protection and defensive instincts in the backline is what's putting Nash between a rock and a hard place: he either plays Claxton to shore up the defence at the cost of the offence turning ugly, or trots out Harris/Mills and make tanking teams look like the '17 Warriors.
Jaylen Brown for All-NBA

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #352 on: November 01, 2022, 07:39:43 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Mitchell might very well be the front runner for MVP right now.  Cavs are 5-1 and entering today he was averaging 31 p, 6.4 a, 4.8 r and is darn near a 50/40/90 shooter.  And of course today he only goes for 38 p, 12 a, 3 r shooting 60% from the field overall and 61.5% from 3.
So far for me the 4 standouts have been Spida, Giannis, Tatum & Doncic.
I wouldn't have Doncic there yet.  Mavs haven't been good enough at 2-3 and actually have been a lot better per 100 possessions with him on the bench.  Doncic has a -9.1 on/off differential per 100 possessions.  He is a poor defender and so ball dominant, that the Mavs often play better when he is on the bench.  Even last year his on/off differential was just a +0.2.  He obviously isn't just an empty stats guy, but to be as ball dominant as he is, you have to be a more complete player.  Guys like Lebron (in his prime), Giannis, etc. are just so much better defenders and just have a better knack for knowing when they need to take over and when to back off.  Doncic hasn't figured that out yet.
I understand the criticism, but it has no bearing on MVP voting (see Harden)
The year Harden won the MVP, his on/off differential per 100 possessions was +5.3.  Now that is lower than most MVP's, but it is good.  And that was one of his lower seasons in Houston.
Your reliance on on/off has led you to poor takes before, and is doing so again. His BPM is off the charts, for example.
A deeper look at lineup data would explain why Doncic's on/off has been so poor - there has only been 78 minutes of him sitting on the bench and the team has been shooting an insane 46.55% from three in those minutes. When you factor in the fact that Doncic is playing against the strongest lineups of opposing teams most of the time, it's easy to see why his raw +/- data has been poor for the calibre of player he is. I think he's approaching some of the ATG wing peaks (e.g. Kobe, Wade, KD, Kawhi, TMac, etc, perhaps West if you're low on the Logo) as an overall player with his improvements on both ends of the court under the tutelage of Jason Kidd.

Yeah we're firmly in the throes of the small sample size kraken at the moment - Doncic's play thus far has been absolutely insane, Dallas just isn't a great team (to my eye at least).
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Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #353 on: November 01, 2022, 08:45:20 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Mitchell might very well be the front runner for MVP right now.  Cavs are 5-1 and entering today he was averaging 31 p, 6.4 a, 4.8 r and is darn near a 50/40/90 shooter.  And of course today he only goes for 38 p, 12 a, 3 r shooting 60% from the field overall and 61.5% from 3.
So far for me the 4 standouts have been Spida, Giannis, Tatum & Doncic.
I wouldn't have Doncic there yet.  Mavs haven't been good enough at 2-3 and actually have been a lot better per 100 possessions with him on the bench.  Doncic has a -9.1 on/off differential per 100 possessions.  He is a poor defender and so ball dominant, that the Mavs often play better when he is on the bench.  Even last year his on/off differential was just a +0.2.  He obviously isn't just an empty stats guy, but to be as ball dominant as he is, you have to be a more complete player.  Guys like Lebron (in his prime), Giannis, etc. are just so much better defenders and just have a better knack for knowing when they need to take over and when to back off.  Doncic hasn't figured that out yet.
I understand the criticism, but it has no bearing on MVP voting (see Harden)
The year Harden won the MVP, his on/off differential per 100 possessions was +5.3.  Now that is lower than most MVP's, but it is good.  And that was one of his lower seasons in Houston.
Your reliance on on/off has led you to poor takes before, and is doing so again. His BPM is off the charts, for example.
A deeper look at lineup data would explain why Doncic's on/off has been so poor - there has only been 78 minutes of him sitting on the bench and the team has been shooting an insane 46.55% from three in those minutes. When you factor in the fact that Doncic is playing against the strongest lineups of opposing teams most of the time, it's easy to see why his raw +/- data has been poor for the calibre of player he is. I think he's approaching some of the ATG wing peaks (e.g. Kobe, Wade, KD, Kawhi, TMac, etc, perhaps West if you're low on the Logo) as an overall player with his improvements on both ends of the court under the tutelage of Jason Kidd.

Yeah we're firmly in the throes of the small sample size kraken at the moment - Doncic's play thus far has been absolutely insane, Dallas just isn't a great team (to my eye at least).
This year is a small sample size, but last year and the year before, and the year before it all holds true.  In his 4 full seasons, Doncic's on/off differential per 100 possessions are -3.7, +1.2, +3.0, +0.2.  So far this year it is -2.8.  This isn't some 6 game fluke and Doncic has had a very hard time making it work with other "great" teammates.  Porzingis and Brunson in particular didn't play well with Doncic (and didn't like playing with him). 

And I think you could at least make an argument, that the reason the team shoots so well without Doncic on the court, is because they play a better team game, they move the ball better, and thus create better shots.  Having a guy so ball dominant like Doncic can create those type of issues.  Obviously, it is great that he can create a shot for himself at any time, but when he is on the court, he is the offense.  Everything rests on his shoulders, and that can lead to situations where your teammates aren't as engaged and they play better when he isn't on the court.  It also doesn't help that he is a poor defender even when he tries.  Now as we saw in the playoff run last year, he can just take over games and will his team to victory, but he can't do that stuff every night.  He has to get better at involving his teammates.

Doncic has immense talent and can go down as one of the greatest players ever, but he has a long way to go on that front.  He hasn't quite figured out how to maximize his play to yield winning basketball, especially for his teammates.
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Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #354 on: November 01, 2022, 11:15:19 AM »

Offline Kernewek

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Yeah it's entirely possible - you're more optimistic than some regarding Doncic's former teammates, but I place him in the 'kid's nice but his team stinks' category that a lot of these guys spend the first few years dealing with - Iverson in Philly, Bosh in Toronto, James in Cleveland, etc.

And that's normal, I think. We've seen how some NBA fans have a hard time dealing with longevity because some guys really stick around so much longer than is normal (James, CP3, etc) but I also think that the other side of this shines through a bit with the instant gratification culture - it's has really messed with people's perceptions in terms of normal NBA development.

Not saying that's what you're doing, just saying that Doncic is in his fourth year. We've got a while to go before we see what happens with his career.
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Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #355 on: November 01, 2022, 11:57:06 AM »

Offline Moranis

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Yeah it's entirely possible - you're more optimistic than some regarding Doncic's former teammates, but I place him in the 'kid's nice but his team stinks' category that a lot of these guys spend the first few years dealing with - Iverson in Philly, Bosh in Toronto, James in Cleveland, etc.

And that's normal, I think. We've seen how some NBA fans have a hard time dealing with longevity because some guys really stick around so much longer than is normal (James, CP3, etc) but I also think that the other side of this shines through a bit with the instant gratification culture - it's has really messed with people's perceptions in terms of normal NBA development.

Not saying that's what you're doing, just saying that Doncic is in his fourth year. We've got a while to go before we see what happens with his career.
Your team stinking, on the whole, doesn't have much to do with on/off differential though.  I mean Lebron's 1st 4 seasons in Cleveland he was +2.2, +8.8, +10.4, and +8.8 (this was the finals team that got swept by San An).  Bosh was -0.7, +5.4, +6.6, +6.0 (and then in year 5 went to an elite +11.1).  Iverson was never a big impact on winning guy, which actually matches how he was viewed his entire career i.e. an inefficient chucker.  He was -0.9, +1.4, +7.9, -0.3.  Year 5 was their Finals run and he was back up to +4.1 in the regular season but was actually a -5.2 in the playoffs.  Because he was an inefficient chucker that didn't play well with others.  The fact that Larry Brown took that team to the Finals is one of the greatest coaching jobs in history.

Year 5 is generally the season when guys really figure it out, especially the impact on winning component.  Doncic should be figuring this out this year.  He should be just entering his prime.  He needs to get better at getting his teammates more involved and more engaged.  The Mavericks should not be better when he is on the bench.  He needs to be a force multiplier, not a force divider.  He just flat out needs to do a better job of impacting the scoreboard, and if that means he scales back his ball dominance to play better defense, then that is what he needs to do.
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Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #356 on: November 02, 2022, 05:52:40 PM »

Offline Donoghus

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I sure as heck didn’t know what the G league salaries were.

https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1587919362433892352?s=46&t=4a-MyQIYskNgIW5xKTc_NA


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Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #357 on: November 02, 2022, 07:08:03 PM »

Offline nickagneta

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I sure as heck didn’t know what the G league salaries were.

https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1587919362433892352?s=46&t=4a-MyQIYskNgIW5xKTc_NA
I draw more off my annuity a year than that, lol.

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #358 on: November 02, 2022, 07:11:30 PM »

Online Surferdad

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I sure as heck didn’t know what the G league salaries were.

https://twitter.com/shamscharania/status/1587919362433892352?s=46&t=4a-MyQIYskNgIW5xKTc_NA
I draw more off my annuity a year than that, lol.
I thought the deal of a few years ago put the top salary at around $75,000. Still not a lot.

Re: NBA Season 2022-23
« Reply #359 on: November 02, 2022, 09:09:53 PM »

Offline Moranis

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That seems really low until you realize how little MLB and NHL hopefuls make in their minor leagues.  Then that doesn't seem so bad.

Plus, they also have health insurance and get time into the retirement system.  All things that are beneficial for a fringe NBA player.  Most guys leave the GLeague after a couple of seasons anyway, either to the NBA or Europe (where they make solid wages) or they just give up on their dreams of playing professionally. 
2023 Historical Draft - Brooklyn Nets - 9th pick

Bigs - Pau, Amar'e, Issel, McGinnis, Roundfield
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