New Celtics / Durant rumor

[pokeKingCurtis]

How'd we get Capela?  Horford + multiple picks?

It was just an example to illustrate a player you might get for 3 picks. I'm not trying to get into a big debate about who that might be. Perhaps Capela cannot be had. But 3 picks, and possibly a rotation player we could replace can add a significant player. 

Getting Durant can only be fairly compared to an alternate scenario where the required picks are also converted into a present day asset

Yeah, it's hard to know how to judge value without knowing the pieces on the table.  For instance, if Seth Curry is packaged with Durant, that makes a lot of scenarios more palatable in the short term.  If Brooklyn would accept protected picks, that changes the evaluation, as well.  What players are being secretly shopped that the media doesn't know about?  What follow-up moves are available to Brad.

The room for a deal seemingly is somewhere between Brown + White + one #1 and Brown + Smart + Williams or Pritchard + two or three #1s.  To me, that's a fairly large disparity.

Of course the assumption is there is any chance of a deal and that the reality isn't the C's just checked in with the Nets looking at what value they were looking for and had little intention of making any deal in the first place and when communications went dry, the Nets decided to leak to Woj about an offer that was never really on the table and only talked about in the abstract.

I don't make much of a distinction between concrete and abstract trade ideas.

Scenario 1:  "I'll give you Brown + White + #1 for Durant"

Scenario 2:  "I'm not committing to anything, but let's say Brown + White + #1 for Durant was on the table.  Does that get things done on your end?"

Yep.  Those are both offers.  It is basically negotiation rule #1, if you say something, you are offering it.

Except that's not really true. The second one is explicitly NOT as offer, its a hypothetical. The difference between the two is if BRK says yes to the first one the deal is done. If BRK says yes to the second BOS still might not do the deal. That seems a pretty huge difference to me? 

Putting aside the specific details of which of those types of offers you think Jaylen Brown, those two things are absolutely different in intent and potential seriousness.

They aren't really different.  When you are in a negotiation, anything you say is an offer.  You don't hypothetically muse about something if you aren't actually prepared to do it.

As someone who's been in the room for multi-billion dollar negotiations, that is simply wrong.  I have more than once both said and heard "We'd have to run the numbers, but what do you think about X?"  Or, the more colloquial, "we're just spitballing, but what about Y?" They're qualified statements.  If the other party is interested, you pursue them more, but you're in no way locking yourself into that position.

Other things that matter, and which were not reported:  Who from the Celtics and Nets were talking?  Was it Brad Stevens and Sean Marks, or their assistants?  Assistants make hypothetical offers, because everyone knows they have to run it back up.  GMs get on the phone when a deal might actually be made.  If Stevens and Marks weren't on the phone, it's not a real offer, end of story, especially with superstars involved.

Again, having been involved in major negotiations, we've sometimes started the conversation with a disclaimer that anything we come up with in the room is subject to the approval of higher-ups.  Sometimes that condition is on both sides, but it's not unusual.  9 times out of 10 a deal we come up with is okayed by the head of my organization, but it's not always the case, and that's understood.  Sometimes I'll say "I'm okay with this but I'm not sure it's going to fly."

But no, just because someone from the Celtics told someone from the Nets "what about Jaylen Brown, Derrick White, and a pick" does not mean that Jaylen Brown was ever officially offered.

You don't say that if you won't do it though.  That is the point.  Is it a binding offer, of course not, but you are not just throwing numbers around without knowing you will take it.  Sure you have to do the final due diligence and make sure the numbers check out, but if they do, you do that deal.  You don't come back and say, yeah the numbers checked out but we never made that offer so we aren't doing it.  That is how you end up losing your job because no one will do business with you.

Oh, we've definitely walked back those offers and have had them walked back on us too.  And despite that, we've still ultimately sealed a deal in such a scenario.  When you're running between conference rooms and workstations for week-long negotiations, it's understood that sometimes conversations will change.  As long as you've built up enough of a relationship that you're not trying to waste people's time, there's room to take back something that was said earlier.  It might cause some brief embarrassment, but you move on.  Lying is more likely to scuttle a deal than an admission that an offer was made that there wasn't full organizational buy-in on.

When GM assistants are talking, they don’t throw out “hypothetical” offers they have no authority to make, though.  I haven’t been in the room for multi-billion dollar negotiations, but I’ve been one of the negotiators on multiple $100+ million cases.  I don’t think the legal world is that different than the business world or the NBA.  When you’re dealing with the other side, you never truly spitball.  It’s too easy to throw out a non-vetted concept that the other side will hold onto, which your client / investor / owner will never agree to.

Responding to a counter-offer takes more finesse.  But in terms of making the opening offer in a negotiation, you don’t do that without authority.

I'm siding with Celtics2021, I think GM staffs do this all the time.  And where I sit in the business world it happens all the time here too exactly the way Celtics2021 described it.

Here's a quote from an Ainge interview back in 2015 about how deals get done:

There are all sorts of exploratory conversations and then there are real conversations.

For me exploratory conversations is synonymous with the spitballing scenario Celtics2021 described, but maybe you'll have a different interpretation.

an exploratory conversation is not one in which you make a concrete offer.  An exploratory conversation is something like, hey what are you looking for to part with Durant?  Any way to get there without including Tatum or Brown?  And things like that. An exploratory conversation is not we'll give you Brown, white, and a 1st for Durant.  No matter how that is couched, it is an offer.

Here's the thing, the only people saying that happened definitively as an offer are reporters given their info from the Nets because it's in the best interest of the Nets for that to come out. Weeks after it supposedly happened.

I have no doubt that the team's had exploratory talks to judge value, but just don't see the C's having given an actual, certifiable offer. The entirety of people's belief that it definitely happened is because of the reporters used. Yet, people aren't talking into consideration those reporters were fed bad info for nefarious and/or self serving reasons.

Is there any reason to think an offer wasn’t made, other than wishful thinking?

And, Woj and Shams aren’t amateurs.  They’re not going to burn relationships simply to do the Nets’ bidding.

Any conversation without Brad Stevens on the phone to sign off on the deal is by nature exploratory, and neither Woj or Shams have ever reported that Stevens was on the call.

As for their professionalism, their job is to drive viewers and readers to their respective media outlets.  They try not to report lies, I’m sure, but incomplete facts they’ll do all the time, because that lets them break the news when an actual deal is made.

Have they reported Stevens wasn’t on the call?

And, if Mike Zarren relays to his Nets counterpart that the Celts would include JB + White + 1st for Durant, that’s an offer, no matter how it’s couched.

But, use semantics however you would like. The fact is, the Celtics put Jaylen’s name in trade ideas with the Nets.

Man I got confused about what Zach Lowe said. He's like it's an offer but it's not something official.

It's become so convoluted, partly I feel because the journalists are kind of trying to protect the sanctity of their jobs or whatever here.

I can't really think of a way where it's "an offer but not an offer" but in my head i guess it's like Brad made an inquiry - "would Jaylen + these work?", "how about non-Jaylen offers", but never followed through with any of it.

[boscel33]

Pretty sure, it's been covered, but Steve Bulpett is reporting there may not have actually been an offer (JB/KD).

"The Nets have certainly been engaging in trade talks at least since word emerged in late June that Durant wanted to be dealt. But Brooklyn has been seeking high quality talent and multiple first round draft picks for the 12-time All-Star and former league MVP, and no one has yet offered a package approaching that haul.

There was a recent report that the Nets had weeks ago turned down an offer of Jaylen Brown, Derrick White and a first round pick from the Celtics, but others have disputed to Heavy that such a proposal was ever truly on the table."

Interesting to say the least.  I've been reading Steve for a long time, well before the days of Twitter and the internet.  He's very connected into the C's and the NBA, have no reason not to believe him.  "Steve has covered the NBA since 1985, the first 35 of those years as beat writer/columnist for the Boston Herald."

[Roy H.]

Pretty sure, it's been covered, but Steve Bulpett is reporting there may not have actually been an offer (JB/KD).

"The Nets have certainly been engaging in trade talks at least since word emerged in late June that Durant wanted to be dealt. But Brooklyn has been seeking high quality talent and multiple first round draft picks for the 12-time All-Star and former league MVP, and no one has yet offered a package approaching that haul.

There was a recent report that the Nets had weeks ago turned down an offer of Jaylen Brown, Derrick White and a first round pick from the Celtics, but others have disputed to Heavy that such a proposal was ever truly on the table."

Interesting to say the least.  I've been reading Steve for a long time, well before the days of Twitter and the internet.  He's very connected into the C's and the NBA, have no reason not to believe him.  "Steve has covered the NBA since 1985, the first 35 of those years as beat writer/columnist for the Boston Herald."

Just as people are saying Woj and Shams are acting like a mouth piece, Bulpett has pretty consistently been a way for the Celtics to float their side of the story out there.

The phrasing is important.  "... disputed to Heavy that such a proposal was ever truly on the table."  So, was there a proposal that wasn't "on the table" somehow?  Or, was it "on the table", but never "truly" so?

What this reporting *doesn't* say is that Jaylen's name wasn't brought up by the Celtics in trade talks for Durant.

[Moranis]

Pretty sure, it's been covered, but Steve Bulpett is reporting there may not have actually been an offer (JB/KD).

"The Nets have certainly been engaging in trade talks at least since word emerged in late June that Durant wanted to be dealt. But Brooklyn has been seeking high quality talent and multiple first round draft picks for the 12-time All-Star and former league MVP, and no one has yet offered a package approaching that haul.

There was a recent report that the Nets had weeks ago turned down an offer of Jaylen Brown, Derrick White and a first round pick from the Celtics, but others have disputed to Heavy that such a proposal was ever truly on the table."

Interesting to say the least.  I've been reading Steve for a long time, well before the days of Twitter and the internet.  He's very connected into the C's and the NBA, have no reason not to believe him.  "Steve has covered the NBA since 1985, the first 35 of those years as beat writer/columnist for the Boston Herald."

Just as people are saying Woj and Shams are acting like a mouth piece, Bulpett has pretty consistently been a way for the Celtics to float their side of the story out there.

The phrasing is important.  "... disputed to Heavy that such a proposal was ever truly on the table."  So, was there a proposal that wasn't "on the table" somehow?  Or, was it "on the table", but never "truly" so?

What this reporting *doesn't* say is that Jaylen's name wasn't brought up by the Celtics in trade talks for Durant.

exactly.  You know what we haven't heard either, a flat out denial from the C's that they offered Brown, White, and a 1st.  That is a specific offer, if it was never discussed, I'd imagine the C's would just say it rather than floating these weird well it was never on the table type stuff.  If that wasn't discussed, Bulprett's article would have just said that.

[Kernewek]

Well (if you were interested in playing armchair GM), would you trade KD for JB, White, and a first?

[Vermont Green]

Well (if you were interested in playing armchair GM), would you trade KD for JB, White, and a first?

There was a poll thread on this.  Exactly 100 voted on the question of trading Brown for Durant in a couple of scenarios.  43% would do this trade or even give up more (9% would have traded Brown, Smart and multiple picks).  57% would not trade Brown for Durant in any case.

[sgrogan]

The "offer" isn't binding so its all semantics.

Even if BKN says yes to Brown, White, and a first.

PBS to BKN - OK I'll get back to you.
LAL to PBS - Would Brown, White and a first work for AD
PBS to Wyc - This is the best deal I could make, I don't think we should do it.
PBS to Brown - I really don't want to trade you BUT, there are rumors that you are disgruntled. I need to here from you that you really want to be here long term.

Any of these things could lead to the "offer" not being executed. At that point its all PR spin and more leaks.

Now, of course if PBS/C's get a reputation of making "un-serious" offers that will hurt them down the road.

[johnnygreen]

As currently constructed, I think Brad has built a well rounded team. If he were to make an offer at this point, I think it should be something like Smart, Horford, Hauser, 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps. If Brooklyn doesn't like the offer, they could go somewhere else, because Brad already improved a team that went to the Finals.

I'm going to double down on this take. If the Celtics did actually offer Jaylen, the deal would have been done by now. Brooklyn needs to either prioritize a top tier player, or multiple picks in the deal, but no one is going to offer both.

Durant is 34 already, yet Brooklyn and the reporters are approaching his trade value as if he's still 25. Gobert was traded for 4 first round picks, a pick swap, and essentially salary fuller. The Celtics traded Pierce and KG for multiple first round picks, and has been players to make the salaries work.

The trade I proposed, not only includes those multiple first round picks, but also the defensive player of the year and another quality starter in Horford.

[Surferdad]

As currently constructed, I think Brad has built a well rounded team. If he were to make an offer at this point, I think it should be something like Smart, Horford, Hauser, 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps. If Brooklyn doesn't like the offer, they could go somewhere else, because Brad already improved a team that went to the Finals.

I'm going to double down on this take. If the Celtics did actually offer Jaylen, the deal would have been done by now. Brooklyn needs to either prioritize a top tier player, or multiple picks in the deal, but no one is going to offer both.

Durant is 34 already, yet Brooklyn and the reporters are approaching his trade value as if he's still 25. Gobert was traded for 4 first round picks, a pick swap, and essentially salary fuller. The Celtics traded Pierce and KG for multiple first round picks, and has been players to make the salaries work.

The trade I proposed, not only includes those multiple first round picks, but also the defensive player of the year and another quality starter in Horford.

I still wouldn't do it. In any case, I don't think the C's have 3 1st round picks to give.

[SparzWizard]

For some Durant news...Kevin Durant seen spotted with Anthony Davis in LA.

[Roy H.]

As currently constructed, I think Brad has built a well rounded team. If he were to make an offer at this point, I think it should be something like Smart, Horford, Hauser, 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps. If Brooklyn doesn't like the offer, they could go somewhere else, because Brad already improved a team that went to the Finals.

I'm going to double down on this take. If the Celtics did actually offer Jaylen, the deal would have been done by now. Brooklyn needs to either prioritize a top tier player, or multiple picks in the deal, but no one is going to offer both.

Durant is 34 already, yet Brooklyn and the reporters are approaching his trade value as if he's still 25. Gobert was traded for 4 first round picks, a pick swap, and essentially salary fuller. The Celtics traded Pierce and KG for multiple first round picks, and has been players to make the salaries work.

The trade I proposed, not only includes those multiple first round picks, but also the defensive player of the year and another quality starter in Horford.

I still wouldn't do it. In any case, I don't think the C's have 3 1st round picks to give.

We can give ‘25, ‘27, and ‘29.

It wouldn’t be wise, but it’s possible.

[vjcsmoke]

All I know is that in NBA2K22 I traded Jaylen Brown away for KD to reflect the real life possibility, and now I'm topping the league with a big 3 of Tatum, Durant, and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.  Still managed to hold onto Rob Williams, Brogdan, and Horford.  But Smart, Grant Williams, and draft picks had to go out the door.  We are just wrecking teams left and right now.  Well if I can build a championship contender/favorite overnight, so can Brad Stevens! 

[liam]

As currently constructed, I think Brad has built a well rounded team. If he were to make an offer at this point, I think it should be something like Smart, Horford, Hauser, 3 firsts and 2 pick swaps. If Brooklyn doesn't like the offer, they could go somewhere else, because Brad already improved a team that went to the Finals.

I'm going to double down on this take. If the Celtics did actually offer Jaylen, the deal would have been done by now. Brooklyn needs to either prioritize a top tier player, or multiple picks in the deal, but no one is going to offer both.

Durant is 34 already, yet Brooklyn and the reporters are approaching his trade value as if he's still 25. Gobert was traded for 4 first round picks, a pick swap, and essentially salary fuller. The Celtics traded Pierce and KG for multiple first round picks, and has been players to make the salaries work.

The trade I proposed, not only includes those multiple first round picks, but also the defensive player of the year and another quality starter in Horford.

I agree with this. Brown, White, and a pick is a great deal for the Nets. They are in the soup. Paying luxury Tax on a team that can't win a game in the first round is a disaster. Two injury prone stars and a guy who may never play again.

[SparzWizard]

All I know is that in NBA2K22 I traded Jaylen Brown away for KD to reflect the real life possibility, and now I'm topping the league with a big 3 of Tatum, Durant, and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.  Still managed to hold onto Rob Williams, Brogdan, and Horford.  But Smart, Grant Williams, and draft picks had to go out the door.  We are just wrecking teams left and right now.  Well if I can build a championship contender/favorite overnight, so can Brad Stevens! 

Now let's put that into reality!

[liam]

All I know is that in NBA2K22 I traded Jaylen Brown away for KD to reflect the real life possibility, and now I'm topping the league with a big 3 of Tatum, Durant, and Shai Gilgeous-Alexander.  Still managed to hold onto Rob Williams, Brogdan, and Horford.  But Smart, Grant Williams, and draft picks had to go out the door.  We are just wrecking teams left and right now.  Well if I can build a championship contender/favorite overnight, so can Brad Stevens! 

Now let's put that into reality!

Aren't we already the favorites?