What (if anything) is wrong with Jaylen?

[Vermont Green]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

How about looking at it this way.  Is Tatum top 5 of the players still playing and with a chance at a title?  Top 3?  Doesn't that matter more at this point than where he ranks against players that are already out?  Does it matter that Giannis would be ranked higher for example?

Luka and Tatum were first team all-NBA this season.  Steph Curry second team.  Butler no team.  So I guess Tatum is no worse than Top 2 of the players left playing.

You could also look at this from a chicken or egg perspective.  Before this season, or even half way through this season, not too many would considered Tatum a top 5 player.  But if he wins a title does that change?  So did he win a title because he is a top 5 player (metaphorical chicken) or has he achieved top 5 player status because he won a title (metaphorical egg)?  Which come first?

I know, this is kind of philosophical for a Friday afternoon, my work is suffering.  Having trouble focusing on anything not Celtics.

An aside, but did I miss All-NBA voting results?  I didn’t think they’d been announced yet.  There were some early ballots that were talked about in April, but I think it was only 15-20% of the total.

Sorry, you are right.  I did a quick and careless Google and ended up on a page where CBS Sports experts were making their picks.  These are not the actual official All-NBA selections.  I will edit my post to clarify.

https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/2021-22-all-nba-picks-luka-doncic-jayson-tatum-crack-first-team-marcus-smart-bam-adebayo-make-all-defense/

[sgrogan]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

How about looking at it this way.  Is Tatum top 5 of the players still playing and with a chance at a title?  Top 3?  Doesn't that matter more at this point than where he ranks against players that are already out?  Does it matter that Giannis would be ranked higher for example?

Luka and Tatum were first team all-NBA this season.  Steph Curry second team.  Butler no team.  So I guess Tatum is no worse than Top 2 of the players left playing.

You could also look at this from a chicken or egg perspective.  Before this season, or even half way through this season, not too many would considered Tatum a top 5 player.  But if he wins a title does that change?  So did he win a title because he is a top 5 player (metaphorical chicken) or has he achieved top 5 player status because he won a title (metaphorical egg)?  Which come first?

I know, this is kind of philosophical for a Friday afternoon, my work is suffering.  Having trouble focusing on anything not Celtics.

I though this too but going back at least 20 yrs and using MVP as a criteria, only Kawhi stands out.
He won a chip as finals MVP (not regular season MVP)(Duncan was a former MVP)
then went on to win MVP and a championship.

Steph won his first MVP the same year as the first championship.

I think Tatum breaks this mold. As good as Brown is, I think Tatum will get Finals MVP.
Going forward this will propel him into annual MVP consideration. If we somehow lost to Dallas the same would be true for Luka.

[Roy H.]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

To be fair I think it was 2003-04 where the champion didn't have a current or former MVP in the playoff line-up.
Thing is we have gone through Durant and Gianniss, and Steph is the only one left, and he's several years removed.

If only we’d played the Sixers this year.  We could have knocked out another MVP.

[td450]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

Top 5 isn't really right. The formula really is to have someone who is reliably dominant, even under playoff pressure. Some years that is no one. It's never as many as 5.

I really think that only Giannis qualifies right now. I would have included Durant pre-playoffs, but we disproved that.

I would put Tatum down as unreliably dominant, which is great, but second tier. Our defense is substituting for our lack of a dominating superstar. The reason Tatum and Brown are getting this done is that they are both exceptional defenders, and now the organization has closed the holes around them. It is rare to have two volume scorers with no defensive compromise.

[sgrogan]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

To be fair I think it was 2003-04 where the champion didn't have a current or former MVP in the playoff line-up.
Thing is we have gone through Durant and Gianniss, and Steph is the only one left, and he's several years removed.

If only we’d played the Sixers this year.  We could have knocked out another MVP.

I'll take getting by MIA but that would have been cool.
Another parallel the 2003-04 Pistons they finished 2nd in DRtg and first in scoring defense.
Sound familiar?

[pokeKingCurtis]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

To be fair I think it was 2003-04 where the champion didn't have a current or former MVP in the playoff line-up.
Thing is we have gone through Durant and Gianniss, and Steph is the only one left, and he's several years removed.

If only we’d played the Sixers this year.  We could have knocked out another MVP.

I'll take getting by MIA but that would have been cool.
Another parallel the 2003-04 Pistons they finished 2nd in DRtg and first in scoring defense.
Sound familiar?

I'm too young for this, but how about the Bad Boy Pistons?

[tonydelk]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

I disagree, but let's assume it's true.  How much does it hold the Celtics back?  Presumably not very much.

A couple of guys who I though were truly a poor fit stylistically were Lebron and Wade.  As we saw, though, they were plenty successful and the Heat built a good team that played to their strengths.

I disagree as well.  I think it was more about the surrounding complementary players then Tatum and Brown.  Now that they've surrounded JT and JB with shooters and playmakers their fit is much better.  Now they trust their teammates and their playmaking has improved. 

[GreenlyGreeny]

Tatum has the potential to be one of the top ten basketball players of all-time. Jaylen has the potential to be one of the top ten active basketball players. There’s a big difference between the two categories, even though it may be difficult for us to imagine having an issue with being in the latter category because a teammate is in the former category. It’s probably not easy being in Jaylen’s shoes, seeing such tremendous greatness and obviously wanting it, but the talent is just not quite there. And there’s no shame as only ten guys can ever be one of the top ten basketball players of all-time. But here’s the thing: If Jaylen is willing to be the Pippen to Tatum’s Jordan, if he’s really willing to 100% go along with that for the long-haul, he can be a HOFer and win a lot of titles along the way, cementing his place in basketball history. I keep hoping and praying that Jaylen accepts his place as the modern day Pippen. I keep worrying he’s going to walk, attracted by the spotlight that only LA or Miami can bring…but in the end, sticking with Tatum and winning titles in Title Town is how Jaylen can best leave his mark. Hopefully he sees it that way. He can still be a HOFer as Tatum’s right-hand guy.

And as good as Jaylen has been, Smart’s intangibles and defensive leadership have him pretty much tied with Jaylen for second best on the team. A lot of it may be attitude. Jaylen certainly has more room to grow whereas this is prime Smart. Either way, it’s to the point where I think we clearly are a 2020s Big 3. Perhaps not as good (at least not yet) as the Big 3s of the 1980s and late 2000s, but perhaps those types of Big 3s are no longer possible in the 2020s. Why do I keep worrying that Jaylen is going to pull a Ray Allen?

[Who]

Jaylen with maybe the quietest 24/3/8 game with just one turnover all season.

He's now at 22.5/3.8/6.9 with splits of 48.1/40.2/75 and a TS% 59.4%.

Yet in the game threads, he is the most highly criticized Celtic player and it's not even close. I don't get it. All this guy does is work his ass off and play amazing basketball but people just have to use him as their whipping boy in the game threads.

Every other NBA fanbase would kill to have Jaylen Brown and would treat him right. Not those on this site.

Trade Jaylen. He'll never gel with Tatum. Terrible basketball IQ. Turnovers galore. Horrible handle. Lazy. Attitudinal. Checked out. Dumb.

That's just some of the stuff you see every game thread but Jaylen continues to be as consistent as anyone on the team.

Jaylen is the Toni Kukoc of this team!

The team whipping boy.

Especially with Smart no longer in the firing line since his shot has been steadier for the last few months .... it has left Jaylen all alone as the main target / whipping boy when anything goes wrong.


Edit: Or was it Luc Longley? I forget. Anyway, team whipping boy except instead of inside the team outside the team for the fan-base being the whipping boy.

[Who]

I do think there is something stylistically about Jaylen that causes some of this as well. Your SG is normally your second ball-handler and passer. That is the position that is asked to co-lead / or secondary lead your offense in terms of ball-handling, passing, playmaking.

Jaylen is below league average / close to league average but certainly unexceptional at those things ... especially given how much he has the ball in his hands. 

When you are a player that plays a position but does it in a way that is different to the norm, you do get more criticism. Like a big man who is more of a finesse player than a power player or a perimeter scorer instead of an interior scorer.

I also think there is something to the era we are in. A guy like Jaylen would be getting more touches around the mid-post and likely be a SF in past eras. In this era, he is getting touches 25 feet from the basket and expected to do more ball-handling.

[Who]

What is it going to take to put this "Tatum and Brown are not a good fit" to rest?

Tatum and Brown are two good players that each makes the team better. I see Pippen and Jordan for example.  Were they redundant?  Did they fit "stylistically"?  How about Wade and LeBron?  Curry and Thompson?

What more do these guys have to do to prove they can play together?

Jordan & Pippen  = yes. Scorer & facilitator. Pippen needed a better scorer than him next to him. Jordan needed someone to help him organize and run the team so he could concentrate more on what he needed to do as a destroyer / scorer.

LeBron & Wade = no. Kinda yes and kinda no. So yes, they were a good fit in terms of defense & rebounding. And no, they struggled as a fit on offense due to similar strengths & weaknesses. Namely they both needed the ball in their hands a lot & were weak shooters when off the ball. This forced Miami into the small ball lineups in order to get enough shooting on the floor to make them function together more effectively offensively.

[Who]

On the fit stylistically / compatibility / chemistry question:

Who is a good fit for Jaylen? Not Tatum. Jaylen.

Who are the players in the league where Jaylen would not have similar questions placed against him as a #2 option that he has next to Tatum. Is it really any different next to Giannis or Embiid or Durant? Steph? Morant? Donovan Mitchell? Booker?

Maybe Jokic.

But ...

As far as I can see, many of the complaints about Jaylen as a fit / compatible would remain next to almost all of these other players just as they do next to Tatum.

Ergo, I see this more as a question of one player's skill-set rather than a question of fit & compatibility. To go back to an earlier post when I said that Jaylen can feel peripheral offensively when isn't making or taking many shots. He doesn't impact the game much offensively when not scoring because of his so-so handle & passing.

I'd also be reluctant to call Jaylen a great defender. Early on it looked like he was going to be that but now he seems more settled on being an above average defender & rebounder. This is good positive steady contributions throughout the game even when he is not scoring but is rarely dominating / leading a game. So along with the handle and passing, this makes Jaylen quite dependent on his shot making to go from solid role player to star player level impact.

And I see this as fairly constant across the board when thinking about him as a #2 next to those other stars as well. So I do not see this as a question of fit next to Tatum.

Although, I do understand Moranis in posts the past also felt this was about maximizing Tatum's impact and building the team to make Tatum the best possible Tatum which my post does not speak to.


Edit: This is a useful compare and contrast with Pippen as a #2 guy. Pippen could still have a big impact on games consistently when his shot wasn't falling because he one of the best SF defenders in league history & the best or 2nd ball-handling and passing SF in the league for many years along with being a plus rebounder.

Another good compare and contrast could be with Klay Thompson who I see as more comparable to Jaylen as a #2 option. Klay was an explosive shooter / scorer who could score in bunches but could be quiet for long stretches also. He was a steady defender probably a bit more consistent than Jaylen but not too dissimilar. Not a rebounder. Not much of a ball-handler or passer. So largely reliant on his scoring to take him from solid player to star level impact; like Jaylen. Klay got more attention for the threat of his outside shooting which helped him more when not scoring. Still, they are quite similar.

It is also why I thought Draymond was more important than Klay in that 73 win season. Draymond was more like Pippen and drove more of their success that season.

[keevsnick]

On the fit stylistically / compatibility / chemistry question:

Who is a good fit for Jaylen? Not Tatum. Jaylen.

Who are the players in the league where Jaylen would not have similar questions placed against him as a #2 option that he has next to Tatum. Is it really any different next to Giannis or Embiid or Durant? Steph? Morant? Donovan Mitchell? Booker?

Maybe Jokic.

But ...

As far as I can see, many of the complaints about Jaylen as a fit / compatible would remain next to almost all of these other players just as they do next to Tatum.

Ergo, I see this more as a question of one player's skill-set rather than a question of fit & compatibility. To go back to an earlier post when I said that Jaylen can feel peripheral offensively when isn't making or taking many shots. He doesn't impact the game much offensively when not scoring because of his so-so handle & passing.

I'd also be reluctant to call Jaylen a great defender. Early on it looked like he was going to be that but now he seems more settled on being an above average defender & rebounder. This is good positive steady contributions throughout the game even when he is not scoring but is rarely dominating / leading a game. So along with the handle and passing, this makes Jaylen quite dependent on his shot making to go from solid role player to star player level impact.

And I see this as fairly constant across the board when thinking about him as a #2 next to those other stars as well. So I do not see this as a question of fit next to Tatum.

Although, I do understand Moranis in posts the past also felt this was about maximizing Tatum's impact and building the team to make Tatum the best possible Tatum which my post does not speak to.


Edit: This is a useful compare and contrast with Pippen as a #2 guy. Pippen could still have a big impact on games consistently when his shot wasn't falling because he one of the best SF defenders in league history & the best or 2nd ball-handling and passing SF in the league for many years along with being a plus rebounder.

Another good compare and contrast could be with Klay Thompson who I see as more comparable to Jaylen as a #2 option. Klay was an explosive shooter / scorer who could score in bunches but could be quiet for long stretches also. He was a steady defender probably a bit more consistent than Jaylen but not too dissimilar. Not a rebounder. Not much of a ball-handler or passer. So largely reliant on his scoring to take him from solid player to star level impact; like Jaylen. Klay got more attention for the threat of his outside shooting which helped him more when not scoring. Still, they are quite similar.

It is also why I thought Draymond was more important than Klay in that 73 win season. Draymond was more like Pippen and drove more of their success that season.

Jaylen would be a great fit next to literally everyone you just mentioned. Guys who shoot near 40% on volume, can get some of their own offense, switch 1-4 and play great defense (yes, I think he's great. Not elite, but great) fit next to  literally anybody in the league.

I literally don't get it, I just don't. Teams pump years of scouting and developing, multiple lottery picks, countless free agency signings trying to find a guy who gives you even some of what Brown gives you. He's a great fit next to Tatum. If he can make one more leap in his passing ability he'll be almost the perfect fit next to Tatum.

[tenn_smoothie]

I believe it is up to Jaylen to accept his role and become a much more effective basketball player. Seems Ime has cured much of Smart's bad habits and has also improved Tatum's decision making, ball movement and turnover problems, but Jaylen continues to make the same dumb plays over and over and to get lost when playing the help side on defense.

The guy just keeps forcing his shaky dribble into traffic and getting stripped or losing his balance and throwing a bad pass. I dread those top-of-the-key isos he loves to go into with his "bag of tricks" dribble. Even if he doesn't turn the ball over, those drives often kill the offense and stop ball movement. Brown did pull up a few times last nite and took the open 15-foot jumper instead of forcing himself into the teeth of the defense.

If I were Brown, my focus would be, "What strengths do I need to use more of to help this team win. How can I be an offensive support to Tatum and not an impediment (sometimes). What bad habits do I need to reduce to be a better player to help us win titles ?" Put his ego aside and do what is best for the team. Maybe a cliche' but Brown could make this team that much better if he would play to his strengths and let the game come to him instead of sometimes continuing to force his offense. Also, he could be a great defender with his body, his length and athleticism, but that has not quite happened. Good defender, but could be so much better.

Jaylen Brown appears to me to be a team-first guy, but he has to figure out, with help from the coaching staff,
how to play much smarter basketball and help this team instead of disrupting it.

[slamtheking]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

I don't think he's wrong about Tatum not being top 5.   he's top 10 in my opinion but I can see a case being made for being outside the top 5.  Jaylen could be top 20-25.  I would have argued he was better than that going into the season but his ball handling has really regressed this season.   my point is that the theory put forth is a team can't win a title without a top 5 player and he has often suggested making deals to land a player better than Tatum or at least as good -- primarily using Brown as the main value going out which I've always opposed because I don't think they play badly together nor that you can't win a title without a top 5 player.