What (if anything) is wrong with Jaylen?

[keevsnick]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

I just don't understand why people think this. I did a quick search of two man lineups. Among C's two man combinations that played 400+ minutes this year the Jaylen/Tatum combo (1400+ minutes) had the second best net rating on the team (Behind Tatum/White, who only played 420 minutes). They had a +14.5 net rating. That's better than either players net rating alone (9.5 for Tatum, 1.8 for Brown).

I'm sure both guys usage goes way up alone, probably their overall scoring too, when they play alone. But the team is undeniably at its best with both of those guys on the court. A +14.5 net rating is insane. Its easily among the best net ratings of any duo in the NBA. Now some of that is that the Celtics team defense is amazing, but Tatum and Browns ability to fit seamlessly into that is a big reason why they ABOLUELY do work together. 

Two guys who play defense and space the floor for each other are by definition good fits together.

[tonydelk]

I think Jaylen is playing well.  I think we've seen Marcus, JT, even AL and Grant go-to a whole extra level at times in these playoffs.  Jaylen outside of a game or two has been his normal consistent self scoring 22 to 24 with his stats.  You can talk about his Turnovers but he's turned it over less then JT.  JB will win a game for us in these playoffs. 

[keevsnick]

Speaking of JB, Marc Stein says this:

Boston’s Jaylen Brown, meanwhile, would earn an additional $1.9 million if the Celtics win it all this season. Milwaukee’s Jrue Holiday earned a $1.1 million bonus last season when the Bucks overturned a 2-0 deficit in the NBA Finals to defeat Phoenix in six games. Brown, Holiday and Dinwiddie all share the same agent: Los Angeles-based Jason Glushon. – via marcstein.substack.com

I don't think that's correct.  Hasn't he already earned his playoff bonus this year?

He has a bonus for 49 team wins and making the second round which he got. He also had one for games played, which he got. I suppose its possible he also has a bonus for NBA championship. But I haven't seen that anywhere. Stein is normally pretty good on this stuff tho.

[sgrogan]

Speaking of JB, Marc Stein says this:

Boston’s Jaylen Brown, meanwhile, would earn an additional $1.9 million if the Celtics win it all this season. Milwaukee’s Jrue Holiday earned a $1.1 million bonus last season when the Bucks overturned a 2-0 deficit in the NBA Finals to defeat Phoenix in six games. Brown, Holiday and Dinwiddie all share the same agent: Los Angeles-based Jason Glushon. – via marcstein.substack.com

I don't think that's correct.  Hasn't he already earned his playoff bonus this year?

He has a bonus for 49 team wins and making the second round which he got. He also had one for games played, which he got. I suppose its possible he also has a bonus for NBA championship. But I haven't seen that anywhere. Stein is normally pretty good on this stuff tho.

$1.9M would put us in the tax by obout $75k, starting thr repeater clock???

[sgrogan]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

I just don't understand why people think this. I did a quick search of two man lineups. Among C's two man combinations that played 400+ minutes this year the Jaylen/Tatum combo (1400+ minutes) had the second best net rating on the team (Behind Tatum/White, who only played 420 minutes). They had a +14.5 net rating. That's better than either players net rating alone (9.5 for Tatum, 1.8 for Brown).

I'm sure both guys usage goes way up alone, probably their overall scoring too, when they play alone. But the team is undeniably at its best with both of those guys on the court. A +14.5 net rating is insane. Its easily among the best net ratings of any duo in the NBA. Now some of that is that the Celtics team defense is amazing, but Tatum and Browns ability to fit seamlessly into that is a big reason why they ABOLUELY do work together. 

Two guys who play defense and space the floor for each other are by definition good fits together.

I don't agree defensively at all.

Offensively I think they can and do play well together. Despite not being the best "stylistic fit"

For me this comes down to they have a lot of overlapping skills and less complimentary skills.
Some have said redundant skills, I avoid this, both being good shooters isn't redundant its just good.

The J's have had to grow to play together. They have progressed beyond "my turn/your turn" I think there is still room for growth with them playing off each other. I think they still have to make an effort to stay out of each other's way.

A "stylistic" great fit would be Giannis and Steph. They are both great players. In many cases one's greatest weakness is the other's greatest strength.

[Vermont Green]

What is it going to take to put this "Tatum and Brown are not a good fit" to rest?

Tatum and Brown are two good players that each makes the team better.  I see Pippen and Jordan for example.  Were they redundant?  Did they fit "stylistically"?  How about Wade and LeBron?  Curry and Thompson?

What more do these guys have to do to prove they can play together?

[slamtheking]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

[sgrogan]

What is it going to take to put this "Tatum and Brown are not a good fit" to rest?

Tatum and Brown are two good players that each makes the team better.  I see Pippen and Jordan for example.  Were they redundant?  Did they fit "stylistically"?  How about Wade and LeBron?  Curry and Thompson?

What more do these guys have to do to prove they can play together?

That's an even better example, because they've played together.
Steph and Klay, elite 3pt shooters, overlapping not redundent skills.
Steph is weak defensively, Klay is NBA All-Defense.
Steph thrives with the ball in his hands, Klay thrives on catch and shoot.
1+1=3 with these two.

Right now I'd say for Tatum and Brown 1+1=2.5 and improving.
We are watching them figure this out in front of our eyes. If they get all the way there, maybe we will win multiple chips too.

[nickagneta]

Doesn't the starting five have like one of the most dominant +/- in the league in quite some time and is best in the league by a mile this year? How can guys that don't fit together be able to play so well as part of a dominant unit together? Makes zero sense.

[Roy H.]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

I disagree, but let's assume it's true.  How much does it hold the Celtics back?  Presumably not very much.

A couple of guys who I though were truly a poor fit stylistically were Lebron and Wade.  As we saw, though, they were plenty successful and the Heat built a good team that played to their strengths.

[Sophomore]

Doesn't the starting five have like one of the most dominant +/- in the league in quite some time and is best in the league by a mile this year? How can guys that don't fit together be able to play so well as part of a dominant unit together? Makes zero sense.

Yeah, it’s pretty hard to argue with those results.

[nickagneta]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

[Vermont Green]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

How about looking at it this way.  Is Tatum top 5 of the players still playing and with a chance at a title?  Top 3?  Doesn't that matter more at this point than where he ranks against players that are already out?  Does it matter that Giannis would be ranked higher for example?

Some sports outlets are predicting that Luka and Tatum will be first team all-NBA this season.  Steph Curry second team.  Butler no team.  So I guess is Tatum is no worse than Top 2 of the players left playing?

You could also look at this from a chicken or egg perspective.  Before this season, or even half way through this season, not too many would considered Tatum a top 5 player.  But if he wins a title does that change?  So did he win a title because he is a top 5 player (metaphorical chicken) or has he achieved top 5 player status because he won a title (metaphorical egg)?  Which come first?

I know, this is kind of philosophical for a Friday afternoon, my work is suffering.  Having trouble focusing on anything not Celtics.

[Celtics2021]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

How about looking at it this way.  Is Tatum top 5 of the players still playing and with a chance at a title?  Top 3?  Doesn't that matter more at this point than where he ranks against players that are already out?  Does it matter that Giannis would be ranked higher for example?

Luka and Tatum were first team all-NBA this season.  Steph Curry second team.  Butler no team.  So I guess Tatum is no worse than Top 2 of the players left playing.

You could also look at this from a chicken or egg perspective.  Before this season, or even half way through this season, not too many would considered Tatum a top 5 player.  But if he wins a title does that change?  So did he win a title because he is a top 5 player (metaphorical chicken) or has he achieved top 5 player status because he won a title (metaphorical egg)?  Which come first?

I know, this is kind of philosophical for a Friday afternoon, my work is suffering.  Having trouble focusing on anything not Celtics.

An aside, but did I miss All-NBA voting results?  I didn’t think they’d been announced yet.  There were some early ballots that were talked about in April, but I think it was only 15-20% of the total.

[sgrogan]

I still don't think Brown and Tatum are a great fit stylistically.  They obviously are both very talented, but in many respects they both play better when the other is on the bench.

of course not.  you've got to keep beating that dead horse.  they continue make the ECF as a pair, this year as the top 2 players on the team and are expected to not just get to the finals but are the favorites to win it.  I think your narrative on this has been effectively disproven.

also, your other favorite narrative of title teams requiring a top 5 player to win it is going to take a hit should the C's win it this year since they do not have a top 5 player.  As good as Tatum has been the second half this season, I seem to recall in various threads you putting the following players ahead of him or in the top 5: Giannis, Jokic, Embiid, Curry, Luka, Lebron, Kawhi, Durant.  That's not getting into KAT, Booker, Harden, Simmons, Mitchell, AD, PG, Zion being posted around here as better players.  I don't agree that all of them are better than Tatum but a you've often made the case he's not top 5, this list of players containing most name you've used to support that is a fair argument but as such would shoot down your theory you can't win a title without a top 5 player.  Granted, the C's still have to finish off Miami and would have to get through either Curry or Luka to win the title but C's are currently the favorites to take the title right now.

Well, he could be right about needing a top 5 guy and is just wrong about Tatum being there yet. I think these playoffs are proving that Tatum is a top 5 player and maybe Brown is a top 15 player. If not both aren't more than a slot or two away from being that good.

To be fair I think it was 2003-04 where the champion didn't have a current or former MVP in the playoff line-up.
Thing is we have gone through Durant and Gianniss, and Steph is the only one left, and he's several years removed.