Celtics (6-6) at Cavaliers (7-5) Game #13 11/13/21

[hpantazo]

Grant Williams starting tonight and playing big minutes was a killer. I knew it was going to be a long night when they announced Horford was out. We can't be a good team if we rely on guys like that for starting caliber contributions.

Bad loss, but we were on the end of a back to back without two of our starters including one of our top 2 players and also one of our key bench guys in Richardson. We ran out of gas and had to rely on poor quality players to step up.

The coach could always play, oh, I dunno, Enes Kanter.

Williams doesn't do anything well, he's a G-Leaguer where Enes, we know he's an offensive force (especially on the boards) who can create his own shot.

Grant playing is not a problem. He's an elite shooter for a guy who can defend bigger players.

Parker playing ahead of Kanter is nonsense though

Elite shooter? Grant Williams???

Grant was a minus 16 tonight, right there with Parker at  a minus 17. Those two guys killed us tonight.

Kanter at least is an elite offensive rebounder in the NBA. We don't need to say 'for his position' or 'for his age, or 'for his contract cost',  or any other such caveat. He is an overall elite offensive rebounder in the NBA, and an excellent paint scorer. Two things we lack.

[blink]

ok I missed the game tonight.  looks like we had a lead going into the 4th again.
anyone want to give me a short summary?  just blew it again at the end?

[gouki88]

Grant Williams starting tonight and playing big minutes was a killer. I knew it was going to be a long night when they announced Horford was out. We can't be a good team if we rely on guys like that for starting caliber contributions.

Bad loss, but we were on the end of a back to back without two of our starters including one of our top 2 players and also one of our key bench guys in Richardson. We ran out of gas and had to rely on poor quality players to step up.

The coach could always play, oh, I dunno, Enes Kanter.

Williams doesn't do anything well, he's a G-Leaguer where Enes, we know he's an offensive force (especially on the boards) who can create his own shot.

Grant playing is not a problem. He's an elite shooter for a guy who can defend bigger players.

Parker playing ahead of Kanter is nonsense though

Elite shooter? Grant Williams???

Grant was a minus 16 tonight, right there with Parker at  a minus 17. Those two guys killed us tonight.

Kanter at least is an elite offensive rebounder in the NBA. We don't need to say 'for his position' or 'for his age, or 'for his contract cost',  or any other such caveat. He is an overall elite offensive rebounder in the NBA, and an excellent paint scorer. Two things we lack.

3/3 from 3 tonight, makes him 14/35 = 40%. Is that not elite? Have I missed something? That is 6% above the current league average.

You also mustn't have read my numerous posts in this thread saying Kanter should have played ahead of Parker. But I don't think Kanter could have worked alongside Williams

[Mahk E Mahk]

tatum, the “elite” all-star: 8 FG, 2 AST, 4 REB, 36% FG, 12% 3P%, 6 TO, and zero defensive effort.

he’s never gonna be that guy.

Where were you the last 3 games with these takes?

three whole games?!?

he played lights-out against the mavs, shot 33% against the raptors, played well against the bucks, and tonight was another complete stinker in all regards. this perfectly demonstrates his problem. year five and he vacillates between great and liability from one game to the next. he’s an inconsistently good player; not great and he never will be.

and let’s not forget the two games prior to these four games:

magic: 14pts, 25% FG, 16% 3P%, 3 AST
heat: 10pts, 23% FG, 2 AST

so, in the last six games he’s had one great game, one good game, one ok game, and three stinkers.

five years in and it’s abundantly clear that tatum is a mentally soft, lazy, privileged, inconsistent, inefficient volume scorer. he’s not someone you build a championship team around. i realize this stirs heated emotions in folks, and i hate it too, but it’s the truth. the sooner brad realizes it, the better off the C’s will be.

Ehhh, weak argument. Those all star berths weren’t flukes and he was a snub for all-NBA last year. I get it: he’s not shown an MVP-level season. But he’s still been the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years now.

Chalking this one up to fan nonsense

yeah, stats are nonsense but votes cast by fans, players, and members of the media constitute astute arguments.

calling him “the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years” is the real nonsense and demonstrates emotional fan bias and not critical basketball analysis. you’re mistaking highly inefficient scoring for impact. he’s a nonexistent facilitator, an average rebounder, a lazy defender, a streaky shooter, a poor ball handler, demonstrates low basketball IQ, and he’s not remotely clutch or a leader. on many nights over the past five years, the most impactful player has been brown, smart, or horford.

i realize C’s fans don’t want to admit it but he’s clearly not that guy.

[gouki88]

tatum, the “elite” all-star: 8 FG, 2 AST, 4 REB, 36% FG, 12% 3P%, 6 TO, and zero defensive effort.

he’s never gonna be that guy.

Where were you the last 3 games with these takes?

three whole games?!?

he played lights-out against the mavs, shot 33% against the raptors, played well against the bucks, and tonight was another complete stinker in all regards. this perfectly demonstrates his problem. year five and he vacillates between great and liability from one game to the next. he’s an inconsistently good player; not great and he never will be.

and let’s not forget the two games prior to these four games:

magic: 14pts, 25% FG, 16% 3P%, 3 AST
heat: 10pts, 23% FG, 2 AST

so, in the last six games he’s had one great game, one good game, one ok game, and three stinkers.

five years in and it’s abundantly clear that tatum is a mentally soft, lazy, privileged, inconsistent, inefficient volume scorer. he’s not someone you build a championship team around. i realize this stirs heated emotions in folks, and i hate it too, but it’s the truth. the sooner brad realizes it, the better off the C’s will be.

Ehhh, weak argument. Those all star berths weren’t flukes and he was a snub for all-NBA last year. I get it: he’s not shown an MVP-level season. But he’s still been the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years now.

Chalking this one up to fan nonsense

yeah, stats are nonsense but votes cast by fans, players, and members of the media constitute astute arguments.

calling him “the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years” is the real nonsense and demonstrates emotional fan bias and not critical basketball analysis. you’re mistaking highly inefficient scoring for impact. he’s a nonexistent facilitator, an average rebounder, a lazy defender, a streaky shooter, a poor ball handler, demonstrates low basketball IQ, and he’s not remotely clutch or a leader. on many nights over the past five years, the most impactful player has been brown, smart, or horford.

i realize C’s fans don’t want to admit it but he’s clearly not that guy.

Kyrie and Kemba had individual seasons of more offensive impact than Tatum, but nobody has been close in terms of offensive impact over the last 3 seasons.

Unless you're just relying upon box stats, which is... questionable.

[Mahk E Mahk]

tatum, the “elite” all-star: 8 FG, 2 AST, 4 REB, 36% FG, 12% 3P%, 6 TO, and zero defensive effort.

he’s never gonna be that guy.

Where were you the last 3 games with these takes?

three whole games?!?

he played lights-out against the mavs, shot 33% against the raptors, played well against the bucks, and tonight was another complete stinker in all regards. this perfectly demonstrates his problem. year five and he vacillates between great and liability from one game to the next. he’s an inconsistently good player; not great and he never will be.

and let’s not forget the two games prior to these four games:

magic: 14pts, 25% FG, 16% 3P%, 3 AST
heat: 10pts, 23% FG, 2 AST

so, in the last six games he’s had one great game, one good game, one ok game, and three stinkers.

five years in and it’s abundantly clear that tatum is a mentally soft, lazy, privileged, inconsistent, inefficient volume scorer. he’s not someone you build a championship team around. i realize this stirs heated emotions in folks, and i hate it too, but it’s the truth. the sooner brad realizes it, the better off the C’s will be.

Ehhh, weak argument. Those all star berths weren’t flukes and he was a snub for all-NBA last year. I get it: he’s not shown an MVP-level season. But he’s still been the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years now.

Chalking this one up to fan nonsense

yeah, stats are nonsense but votes cast by fans, players, and members of the media constitute astute arguments.

calling him “the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years” is the real nonsense and demonstrates emotional fan bias and not critical basketball analysis. you’re mistaking highly inefficient scoring for impact. he’s a nonexistent facilitator, an average rebounder, a lazy defender, a streaky shooter, a poor ball handler, demonstrates low basketball IQ, and he’s not remotely clutch or a leader. on many nights over the past five years, the most impactful player has been brown, smart, or horford.

i realize C’s fans don’t want to admit it but he’s clearly not that guy.

Kyrie and Kemba had individual seasons of more offensive impact than Tatum, but nobody has been close in terms of offensive impact over the last 3 seasons.

Unless you're just relying upon box stats, which is... questionable.

i’ll agree that, on average, tatum has been the most impactful offensive player over the past three seasons. unfortunately, that impact fluctuates wildly between dominant scoring and abysmally shooting the C’s out of wins, which has led to a 58% wining percentage over the past 3+ seasons. stellar.

btw, you just called a career 33% career 3pt shooter “elite” which is more than questionable.

[nickagneta]

Celtics play great over several games....crickets.

Celtics lose a close game after a bad 4th quarter  and suddenly all those guys that love tea and have lots of rolls on their body show up to go nuts.

So predictable.

[hpantazo]

Grant Williams starting tonight and playing big minutes was a killer. I knew it was going to be a long night when they announced Horford was out. We can't be a good team if we rely on guys like that for starting caliber contributions.

Bad loss, but we were on the end of a back to back without two of our starters including one of our top 2 players and also one of our key bench guys in Richardson. We ran out of gas and had to rely on poor quality players to step up.

The coach could always play, oh, I dunno, Enes Kanter.

Williams doesn't do anything well, he's a G-Leaguer where Enes, we know he's an offensive force (especially on the boards) who can create his own shot.

Grant playing is not a problem. He's an elite shooter for a guy who can defend bigger players.

Parker playing ahead of Kanter is nonsense though

Elite shooter? Grant Williams???

Grant was a minus 16 tonight, right there with Parker at  a minus 17. Those two guys killed us tonight.

Kanter at least is an elite offensive rebounder in the NBA. We don't need to say 'for his position' or 'for his age, or 'for his contract cost',  or any other such caveat. He is an overall elite offensive rebounder in the NBA, and an excellent paint scorer. Two things we lack.

3/3 from 3 tonight, makes him 14/35 = 40%. Is that not elite? Have I missed something? That is 6% above the current league average.

You also mustn't have read my numerous posts in this thread saying Kanter should have played ahead of Parker. But I don't think Kanter could have worked alongside Williams

That's a small sample size to start the season. His career 3 point percentage is  32.3% , far  from elite.  The league average last season  for example was 36.7%. 

I hope he does manage to keep it up, but he hasn't earned the right to be called a great 3 point shooter yet, nevermind elite.

[DocomoCelts]

That is gonna be the reaction when you give up a 19-point lead within 7 minutes.

Some seem to have difficulty grasping that concept. It was exasperating watching the train wreck unfold down the stretch, even when the starters came back in.

[Somebody]

Grant Williams starting tonight and playing big minutes was a killer. I knew it was going to be a long night when they announced Horford was out. We can't be a good team if we rely on guys like that for starting caliber contributions.

Bad loss, but we were on the end of a back to back without two of our starters including one of our top 2 players and also one of our key bench guys in Richardson. We ran out of gas and had to rely on poor quality players to step up.

The coach could always play, oh, I dunno, Enes Kanter.

Williams doesn't do anything well, he's a G-Leaguer where Enes, we know he's an offensive force (especially on the boards) who can create his own shot.

Grant playing is not a problem. He's an elite shooter for a guy who can defend bigger players.

Parker playing ahead of Kanter is nonsense though

Elite shooter? Grant Williams???

Grant was a minus 16 tonight, right there with Parker at  a minus 17. Those two guys killed us tonight.

Kanter at least is an elite offensive rebounder in the NBA. We don't need to say 'for his position' or 'for his age, or 'for his contract cost',  or any other such caveat. He is an overall elite offensive rebounder in the NBA, and an excellent paint scorer. Two things we lack.

3/3 from 3 tonight, makes him 14/35 = 40%. Is that not elite? Have I missed something? That is 6% above the current league average.

You also mustn't have read my numerous posts in this thread saying Kanter should have played ahead of Parker. But I don't think Kanter could have worked alongside Williams

That's a small sample size to start the season. His career 3 point percentage is  32.3% , far  from elite.  The league average last season  for example was 36.7%. 

I hope he does manage to keep it up, but he hasn't earned the right to be called a great 3 point shooter yet, nevermind elite.

His career percentage is skewed by his disastrous start to his rookie season - he quickly bounced back with a strong 37.2% on 2 attempts per 18.1 minutes in his sophomore year. He's definitely a plus shooter (you need to take into consideration that he's a big) at this point of his career imo.

[Somebody]

Celtics play great over several games....crickets.

Celtics lose a close game after a bad 4th quarter  and suddenly all those guys that love tea and have lots of rolls on their body show up to go nuts.

So predictable.

To be fair beating a decimated Bucks team and the ice cold Raptors and Heat (not that those were bad wins, it's just that the margin of victory was inflated by those teams missing almost every open three they got) isn't something to go nuts about. Losing to a Cavaliers team that was injured to the point of running Mobley post ups and Garland isos to generate offence because their only reliable way of producing good looks was the Rubio PnR is worthy of concern though.

As for people going nuts, I'm one of the posters on this forum who have been the most vocal on Ime, but I feel that giving him 20-30 games (maybe even half of the season) isn't the end of the world and is reasonable to all sides involved (although imo we should sack him immediately because I feel that we're giving him time to eventually become an average coach - well-run organisations give their coaches time to turn into good tacticians, not mediocre ones whose developmental curve involves running mid-post isos for Marcus Smart to generate offence in crunch time against a defence that has two bigs protecting the paint).

[Mahk E Mahk]

Celtics play great over several games....crickets.

Celtics lose a close game after a bad 4th quarter  and suddenly all those guys that love tea and have lots of rolls on their body show up to go nuts.

So predictable.

crickets? 36 page thread vs. 32 for the bucks game, 22 raptor pages, 31 mavs pages, 44 heat pages. seems there’s been plenty of chatter after all games, wins or losses.

it wasn’t a close game; the C’s blew a 19 point lead. you act like the bad fourth quarter was due to an external influence. no, the C’s self-destructed in a game they should have easily won…again. this game didn’t happen in a vacuum: another blown large lead in the midst of a 6-7 season for a team that’s 42-43 over its last 85 games. several great games alongside several real uninspired stinkers isn’t acceptable to most of us.

“guys that love tea and have lots of rolls on their body?” lol, get off my lawn, boomer.

[Somebody]

tatum, the “elite” all-star: 8 FG, 2 AST, 4 REB, 36% FG, 12% 3P%, 6 TO, and zero defensive effort.

he’s never gonna be that guy.

Where were you the last 3 games with these takes?

three whole games?!?

he played lights-out against the mavs, shot 33% against the raptors, played well against the bucks, and tonight was another complete stinker in all regards. this perfectly demonstrates his problem. year five and he vacillates between great and liability from one game to the next. he’s an inconsistently good player; not great and he never will be.

and let’s not forget the two games prior to these four games:

magic: 14pts, 25% FG, 16% 3P%, 3 AST
heat: 10pts, 23% FG, 2 AST

so, in the last six games he’s had one great game, one good game, one ok game, and three stinkers.

five years in and it’s abundantly clear that tatum is a mentally soft, lazy, privileged, inconsistent, inefficient volume scorer. he’s not someone you build a championship team around. i realize this stirs heated emotions in folks, and i hate it too, but it’s the truth. the sooner brad realizes it, the better off the C’s will be.

Ehhh, weak argument. Those all star berths weren’t flukes and he was a snub for all-NBA last year. I get it: he’s not shown an MVP-level season. But he’s still been the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years now.

Chalking this one up to fan nonsense

yeah, stats are nonsense but votes cast by fans, players, and members of the media constitute astute arguments.

calling him “the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years” is the real nonsense and demonstrates emotional fan bias and not critical basketball analysis. you’re mistaking highly inefficient scoring for impact. he’s a nonexistent facilitator, an average rebounder, a lazy defender, a streaky shooter, a poor ball handler, demonstrates low basketball IQ, and he’s not remotely clutch or a leader. on many nights over the past five years, the most impactful player has been brown, smart, or horford.

i realize C’s fans don’t want to admit it but he’s clearly not that guy.

Kyrie and Kemba had individual seasons of more offensive impact than Tatum, but nobody has been close in terms of offensive impact over the last 3 seasons.

Unless you're just relying upon box stats, which is... questionable.

To be fair Kyrie only played 1 season for us in the past 3 years and Kemba only had one healthy season for us in that time period. Tatum is definitely a very good basketball player, but I do feel that people get hung up on his late-season hot streaks a bit too much and crown him as something that he isn't (e.g. he's the next KD, he got snubbed for All-NBA last year when he was competing with Giannis/LeBron/Durant/Kawhi/George/Butler for those spots, etc). Maybe Mahk is being too low on Tatum, but I think he has a point here: it's unreasonable to expect Tatum to develop into one of the highest peak wings in NBA history (although he can very much emulate wings like Pierce and Drexler, who became all-time greats from pumping out year after year of good-to-great production for a very long time and ended up being key pieces on championship teams).

Note: I'm aware that Randle got in instead of Durant, but my argument is that there were 5-6 candidates who were really deserving of a nomination into those All-League teams, and you can very reasonably take them all over Tatum.

[Ogaju]

Was that seriously our go-to game-tying ATO??

Oh my god, Ime is so horrible at coaching offence

Not so good on defense as the Cavs score 29 in the 4th.

Giving up 29 isn’t atrocious. It’s scoring 15 in the 4th which is terrible.

If they score more than 15 or give up less than 29 you win. The offense and defense were both not good.

Also might help to not lose a 19-point lead in a 7 minute stretch.
How is that even possible ?

the new nba.

[LilRip]

tatum, the “elite” all-star: 8 FG, 2 AST, 4 REB, 36% FG, 12% 3P%, 6 TO, and zero defensive effort.

he’s never gonna be that guy.

Where were you the last 3 games with these takes?

three whole games?!?

he played lights-out against the mavs, shot 33% against the raptors, played well against the bucks, and tonight was another complete stinker in all regards. this perfectly demonstrates his problem. year five and he vacillates between great and liability from one game to the next. he’s an inconsistently good player; not great and he never will be.

and let’s not forget the two games prior to these four games:

magic: 14pts, 25% FG, 16% 3P%, 3 AST
heat: 10pts, 23% FG, 2 AST

so, in the last six games he’s had one great game, one good game, one ok game, and three stinkers.

five years in and it’s abundantly clear that tatum is a mentally soft, lazy, privileged, inconsistent, inefficient volume scorer. he’s not someone you build a championship team around. i realize this stirs heated emotions in folks, and i hate it too, but it’s the truth. the sooner brad realizes it, the better off the C’s will be.

Ehhh, weak argument. Those all star berths weren’t flukes and he was a snub for all-NBA last year. I get it: he’s not shown an MVP-level season. But he’s still been the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years now.

Chalking this one up to fan nonsense

yeah, stats are nonsense but votes cast by fans, players, and members of the media constitute astute arguments.

calling him “the most impactful player on the floor for this team for more than a few years” is the real nonsense and demonstrates emotional fan bias and not critical basketball analysis. you’re mistaking highly inefficient scoring for impact. he’s a nonexistent facilitator, an average rebounder, a lazy defender, a streaky shooter, a poor ball handler, demonstrates low basketball IQ, and he’s not remotely clutch or a leader. on many nights over the past five years, the most impactful player has been brown, smart, or horford.

i realize C’s fans don’t want to admit it but he’s clearly not that guy.

When they’re stats based on one fan’s lazy interpretations, then yep, I’ll take fan votes over that any day of the week. Also, fans don’t vote in the all star reserves (unless I missed this rule change somewhere).

And no, it has not been Smart. If you want to blow your horn over who is the king of inconsistency, I think Smart takes the cake over any other Celtic who got any type of consistent minutes in the past half decade. There’s a reason why he’s a polarizing player on these boards.

There’s a case to be made for Brown last year, although his team defense always leaves me hanging. And for all his individual scoring greatness, he doesn’t have the gravity or vision on offense that opens things up for players around him.