Hot takes following a bad loss & terrible start to the season

[Celtics2021]

I don't think our bad def is getting enough attention.  We are giving up 119 ppg.  Even when you factor out the multiple overtimes that we have had we are still giving up 114+/- ppg.  114 puts us in the bottom 3 in the league.

We are also been rebounding poorly, we are minus - 6.1 in rebound differential, which is 2nd worst in the NBA.
We are also only grabbing 46.1 boards a game which is also 2nd worse in the NBA.

Those rebounds stats are made worse by our opponents FG% which is also 2nd worse in the NBA at 43% per game, just a little bit behind the Spurs as the worst.

So we can talk all day about Smart's dumb comments, Ime calling out Jaylen, JT's struggles and guys not producing, but will any of that even matter until we start playing better defense?  If we get 4-5 more stops in every game we are probably 5-2.  Is getting one more stop every quarter unattainable?  It seems so right now for our def.  Hopefully that changes.

I have no idea who to blame for the bad def, maybe a combo of the coaching, the def scheme, and the players not executing.  But we are lotto bound if the def doesn't improve.

The most concerning aspect of this is that the Celts were barely an average defensive team last year.

When you look at the trendline starting in summer 2020 through to now, the defense has gotten a lot worse over that time.  It's a bit mystifying.  It probably comes down to team chemistry getting gradually worse over that time, combined with injuries + COVID.

I also think that another consistent trend over that same period is that there's been an increasing offensive burden placed on Tatum and Brown. That means those guys have less energy and focus to offer on the defensive end. 


This is fundamentally a different team, with a much lower ceiling, if Tatum is simply a below average defensive player now.  Same with JB.  This team has no hope if Tatum + Brown + Smart + Rob Williams is not the foundation of a top tier defense.  Emphasis on "top tier." That group can't simply be "solid" on defense.  They have to be GREAT.  If those guys can't be great defensively anymore, for whatever reason, then we need to radically re-evaluate the plan because this isn't going to work.

It’s interesting.  That core 4 is +13 per 100 in nearly 100 minutes, with a defensive rating of 101.9.  It’s successful.  The problem is what happens when we get down to fewer than all 4 of those on the court.

The foundation is fine.  They play well together.  It’s what happens for the 75% of the game when we’ve rotated out of that lineup, and that’s why we’re 2-5 instead of 5-2.

[gouki88]

I don't think our bad def is getting enough attention.  We are giving up 119 ppg.  Even when you factor out the multiple overtimes that we have had we are still giving up 114+/- ppg.  114 puts us in the bottom 3 in the league.

We are also been rebounding poorly, we are minus - 6.1 in rebound differential, which is 2nd worst in the NBA.
We are also only grabbing 46.1 boards a game which is also 2nd worse in the NBA.

Those rebounds stats are made worse by our opponents FG% which is also 2nd worse in the NBA at 43% per game, just a little bit behind the Spurs as the worst.

So we can talk all day about Smart's dumb comments, Ime calling out Jaylen, JT's struggles and guys not producing, but will any of that even matter until we start playing better defense?  If we get 4-5 more stops in every game we are probably 5-2.  Is getting one more stop every quarter unattainable?  It seems so right now for our def.  Hopefully that changes.

I have no idea who to blame for the bad def, maybe a combo of the coaching, the def scheme, and the players not executing.  But we are lotto bound if the def doesn't improve.

The most concerning aspect of this is that the Celts were barely an average defensive team last year.

When you look at the trendline starting in summer 2020 through to now, the defense has gotten a lot worse over that time.  It's a bit mystifying.  It probably comes down to team chemistry getting gradually worse over that time, combined with injuries + COVID.

I also think that another consistent trend over that same period is that there's been an increasing offensive burden placed on Tatum and Brown. That means those guys have less energy and focus to offer on the defensive end. 


This is fundamentally a different team, with a much lower ceiling, if Tatum is simply a below average defensive player now.  Same with JB.  This team has no hope if Tatum + Brown + Smart + Rob Williams is not the foundation of a top tier defense.  Emphasis on "top tier." That group can't simply be "solid" on defense.  They have to be GREAT.  If those guys can't be great defensively anymore, for whatever reason, then we need to radically re-evaluate the plan because this isn't going to work.

It’s interesting.  That core 4 is +13 per 100 in nearly 100 minutes, with a defensive rating of 101.9.  It’s successful.  The problem is what happens when we get down to fewer than all 4 of those on the court.

The foundation is fine.  They play well together.  It’s what happens for the 75% of the game when we’ve rotated out of that lineup, and that’s why we’re 2-5 instead of 5-2.

I feel like this boils down to Ime’s woeful management of rotations as much as anything

[Celtics2021]

I don't think our bad def is getting enough attention.  We are giving up 119 ppg.  Even when you factor out the multiple overtimes that we have had we are still giving up 114+/- ppg.  114 puts us in the bottom 3 in the league.

We are also been rebounding poorly, we are minus - 6.1 in rebound differential, which is 2nd worst in the NBA.
We are also only grabbing 46.1 boards a game which is also 2nd worse in the NBA.

Those rebounds stats are made worse by our opponents FG% which is also 2nd worse in the NBA at 43% per game, just a little bit behind the Spurs as the worst.

So we can talk all day about Smart's dumb comments, Ime calling out Jaylen, JT's struggles and guys not producing, but will any of that even matter until we start playing better defense?  If we get 4-5 more stops in every game we are probably 5-2.  Is getting one more stop every quarter unattainable?  It seems so right now for our def.  Hopefully that changes.

I have no idea who to blame for the bad def, maybe a combo of the coaching, the def scheme, and the players not executing.  But we are lotto bound if the def doesn't improve.

The most concerning aspect of this is that the Celts were barely an average defensive team last year.

When you look at the trendline starting in summer 2020 through to now, the defense has gotten a lot worse over that time.  It's a bit mystifying.  It probably comes down to team chemistry getting gradually worse over that time, combined with injuries + COVID.

I also think that another consistent trend over that same period is that there's been an increasing offensive burden placed on Tatum and Brown. That means those guys have less energy and focus to offer on the defensive end. 


This is fundamentally a different team, with a much lower ceiling, if Tatum is simply a below average defensive player now.  Same with JB.  This team has no hope if Tatum + Brown + Smart + Rob Williams is not the foundation of a top tier defense.  Emphasis on "top tier." That group can't simply be "solid" on defense.  They have to be GREAT.  If those guys can't be great defensively anymore, for whatever reason, then we need to radically re-evaluate the plan because this isn't going to work.

It’s interesting.  That core 4 is +13 per 100 in nearly 100 minutes, with a defensive rating of 101.9.  It’s successful.  The problem is what happens when we get down to fewer than all 4 of those on the court.

The foundation is fine.  They play well together.  It’s what happens for the 75% of the game when we’ve rotated out of that lineup, and that’s why we’re 2-5 instead of 5-2.

I feel like this boils down to Ime’s woeful management of rotations as much as anything

Rotations and/or the failure of our depth once again.  Tough to say precisely.  Subbing out Al for Rob was also a good lineup until the meltdown Monday, but I think on the year it’ll be fine once that disastrous 8 minutes is washed away.

Everyone’s trying to make it a Smart thing, or a Js thing, or a TL, or two bigs issue.   Really it’s everyone aside from our top 6 players — when two of them are on the floor things crater rapidly.

[tenn_smoothie]

Great analysis of the team at this point.

We keep talking about the need for Brown and Tatum to be playmakers. Has it occurred to anyone that it just might not be in them ? They are often a disaster off the dribble, forcing the ball into traffic, throwing wild, off-balance passes back out to a 3-point shooter and inventing more and more ways to turn the ball over. We can include Marcus in that category as well. He is not a point guard.

What about trading Jaylen Brown for Lamelo Ball and allow Tatum to stay within his very talented skill set ?
Ball is the ultimate playmaker and Tatum needs to be the catch and shoot or the catch on a cut scorer.
He is great at that. He is really not a very good playmaker, but the role keeps being forced on him.
Build a roster that compliments players' skills and does not ask them to be something they are not.

[todd_days_41]

I think the "heart" discussion is a little overrated in Boston. Team needs a) better players, and b) indeed ones that compliment each other.

Leaving aside the obvious near-term small stuff -- Schroeder over Smart, Nesmith taking some of Richardson's minutes -- the Cs are finally going to have to face this question (likely without choice) between now and the FA period next summer:

What is the best possible package they can get for Brown, Smart, and filler (Richardson, Horford) and / or picks in one or two large trades?

Because if Stevens doesn't get serious on that topic, there's significant risk teams will smell blood in the water (namely: Tatum being unhappy), and the value of the package will go down as the Cs hand is forced due to spiraling locker room and floor fit issues.

My personal feeling is this: if the Cs traded every player on the roster today other than Tatum and Bob Williams, i'd be 100% ok with that. Because in the next couple seasons, I bet that's exactly what happens.

if there is indeed that kind of a firesafe on this team, Timelord will be out the door before Jaylen and several others.

Couldn't disagree more. He's young, of ascending value / impact, on a reasonable contract, and impacts the game without needing the ball. He duplicates no player on the roster. You keep him.

he's less skilled than others and has a well-established issue with missing games for health reasons. 

he's an NBA caliber player that I don't think we're using to his potential but as far as pieces to be used in trades, Jaylen (as an example) would be a building block you keep unless blown away in a deal.  Timelord is not a mere throw-in for a trade but he's definitely playing a position that needs to be upgraded.

less skilled than others at what? he has the most unique skill set on the team - period.

as for injuries, take your pick of players who have worked their way thru such concerns when young. Joel Embiid couldn't stay healthy when young either -- should the Sixers have given up on him? Bob's hardly Romeo Langford..... he needs to continue to work on his body and he'll be fine.

regardless, you're missing my point. the one i am making is: there's a wide open question as to whether Tatum and Brown can successfully co-lead a championship level basketball team -- and i believe that's going to come to a head one way or another sooner than many others do. I hope it does to the affirmative, but the (fairly large) sample size is starting to get ugly.

You mean like the Jays winning more playoff games as a tandem since Tatum entered the league than 28 total teams? That sample size?

I seriously doubt you actually buy that’s a meaningful measure of their success, nor their fit as a duo. The more the team has become “theirs”, the worse the team has gotten.

[Moranis]

I think the "heart" discussion is a little overrated in Boston. Team needs a) better players, and b) indeed ones that compliment each other.

Leaving aside the obvious near-term small stuff -- Schroeder over Smart, Nesmith taking some of Richardson's minutes -- the Cs are finally going to have to face this question (likely without choice) between now and the FA period next summer:

What is the best possible package they can get for Brown, Smart, and filler (Richardson, Horford) and / or picks in one or two large trades?

Because if Stevens doesn't get serious on that topic, there's significant risk teams will smell blood in the water (namely: Tatum being unhappy), and the value of the package will go down as the Cs hand is forced due to spiraling locker room and floor fit issues.

My personal feeling is this: if the Cs traded every player on the roster today other than Tatum and Bob Williams, i'd be 100% ok with that. Because in the next couple seasons, I bet that's exactly what happens.

if there is indeed that kind of a firesafe on this team, Timelord will be out the door before Jaylen and several others.

Couldn't disagree more. He's young, of ascending value / impact, on a reasonable contract, and impacts the game without needing the ball. He duplicates no player on the roster. You keep him.

he's less skilled than others and has a well-established issue with missing games for health reasons. 

he's an NBA caliber player that I don't think we're using to his potential but as far as pieces to be used in trades, Jaylen (as an example) would be a building block you keep unless blown away in a deal.  Timelord is not a mere throw-in for a trade but he's definitely playing a position that needs to be upgraded.

less skilled than others at what? he has the most unique skill set on the team - period.

as for injuries, take your pick of players who have worked their way thru such concerns when young. Joel Embiid couldn't stay healthy when young either -- should the Sixers have given up on him? Bob's hardly Romeo Langford..... he needs to continue to work on his body and he'll be fine.

regardless, you're missing my point. the one i am making is: there's a wide open question as to whether Tatum and Brown can successfully co-lead a championship level basketball team -- and i believe that's going to come to a head one way or another sooner than many others do. I hope it does to the affirmative, but the (fairly large) sample size is starting to get ugly.

You mean like the Jays winning more playoff games as a tandem since Tatum entered the league than 28 total teams? That sample size?

I seriously doubt you actually buy that’s a meaningful measure of their success, nor their fit as a duo. The more the team has become “theirs”, the worse the team has gotten.

you mean the worse the talent and depth becomes, the worse the record has gotten

[todd_days_41]

I think the "heart" discussion is a little overrated in Boston. Team needs a) better players, and b) indeed ones that compliment each other.

Leaving aside the obvious near-term small stuff -- Schroeder over Smart, Nesmith taking some of Richardson's minutes -- the Cs are finally going to have to face this question (likely without choice) between now and the FA period next summer:

What is the best possible package they can get for Brown, Smart, and filler (Richardson, Horford) and / or picks in one or two large trades?

Because if Stevens doesn't get serious on that topic, there's significant risk teams will smell blood in the water (namely: Tatum being unhappy), and the value of the package will go down as the Cs hand is forced due to spiraling locker room and floor fit issues.

My personal feeling is this: if the Cs traded every player on the roster today other than Tatum and Bob Williams, i'd be 100% ok with that. Because in the next couple seasons, I bet that's exactly what happens.

if there is indeed that kind of a firesafe on this team, Timelord will be out the door before Jaylen and several others.

Couldn't disagree more. He's young, of ascending value / impact, on a reasonable contract, and impacts the game without needing the ball. He duplicates no player on the roster. You keep him.

he's less skilled than others and has a well-established issue with missing games for health reasons. 

he's an NBA caliber player that I don't think we're using to his potential but as far as pieces to be used in trades, Jaylen (as an example) would be a building block you keep unless blown away in a deal.  Timelord is not a mere throw-in for a trade but he's definitely playing a position that needs to be upgraded.

less skilled than others at what? he has the most unique skill set on the team - period.

as for injuries, take your pick of players who have worked their way thru such concerns when young. Joel Embiid couldn't stay healthy when young either -- should the Sixers have given up on him? Bob's hardly Romeo Langford..... he needs to continue to work on his body and he'll be fine.

regardless, you're missing my point. the one i am making is: there's a wide open question as to whether Tatum and Brown can successfully co-lead a championship level basketball team -- and i believe that's going to come to a head one way or another sooner than many others do. I hope it does to the affirmative, but the (fairly large) sample size is starting to get ugly.

You mean like the Jays winning more playoff games as a tandem since Tatum entered the league than 28 total teams? That sample size?

I seriously doubt you actually buy that’s a meaningful measure of their success, nor their fit as a duo. The more the team has become “theirs”, the worse the team has gotten.

you mean the worse the talent and depth becomes, the worse the record has gotten

I'd agree their talent has not gone up -- particularly their young bench talent due to poor drafting. But haven't Tatum and Brown improved during that time? Shouldn't Smart have?

[footey]

I think the "heart" discussion is a little overrated in Boston. Team needs a) better players, and b) indeed ones that compliment each other.

Leaving aside the obvious near-term small stuff -- Schroeder over Smart, Nesmith taking some of Richardson's minutes -- the Cs are finally going to have to face this question (likely without choice) between now and the FA period next summer:

What is the best possible package they can get for Brown, Smart, and filler (Richardson, Horford) and / or picks in one or two large trades?

Because if Stevens doesn't get serious on that topic, there's significant risk teams will smell blood in the water (namely: Tatum being unhappy), and the value of the package will go down as the Cs hand is forced due to spiraling locker room and floor fit issues.

My personal feeling is this: if the Cs traded every player on the roster today other than Tatum and Bob Williams, i'd be 100% ok with that. Because in the next couple seasons, I bet that's exactly what happens.

if there is indeed that kind of a firesafe on this team, Timelord will be out the door before Jaylen and several others.

Couldn't disagree more. He's young, of ascending value / impact, on a reasonable contract, and impacts the game without needing the ball. He duplicates no player on the roster. You keep him.

he's less skilled than others and has a well-established issue with missing games for health reasons. 

he's an NBA caliber player that I don't think we're using to his potential but as far as pieces to be used in trades, Jaylen (as an example) would be a building block you keep unless blown away in a deal.  Timelord is not a mere throw-in for a trade but he's definitely playing a position that needs to be upgraded.

less skilled than others at what? he has the most unique skill set on the team - period.

as for injuries, take your pick of players who have worked their way thru such concerns when young. Joel Embiid couldn't stay healthy when young either -- should the Sixers have given up on him? Bob's hardly Romeo Langford..... he needs to continue to work on his body and he'll be fine.

regardless, you're missing my point. the one i am making is: there's a wide open question as to whether Tatum and Brown can successfully co-lead a championship level basketball team -- and i believe that's going to come to a head one way or another sooner than many others do. I hope it does to the affirmative, but the (fairly large) sample size is starting to get ugly.

You mean like the Jays winning more playoff games as a tandem since Tatum entered the league than 28 total teams? That sample size?

I seriously doubt you actually buy that’s a meaningful measure of their success, nor their fit as a duo. The more the team has become “theirs”, the worse the team has gotten.

you mean the worse the talent and depth becomes, the worse the record has gotten

I'd agree their talent has not gone up -- particularly their young bench talent due to poor drafting. But haven't Tatum and Brown improved during that time? Shouldn't Smart have?

Disturbing trend is when vets (Tatum, Brown, Schroder, Richardson) shut out young guys (Romeo, Pritchard) from participation in the offensive sets.  Schroder particularly was guilty of this multiple times last night.  These young players have demonstrated capability to contribute, but hard to do without opportunity.  Romeo to his credit stays very focused defensively.  Still waiting for Nesmith to get his chance.

[todd_days_41]

I think the "heart" discussion is a little overrated in Boston. Team needs a) better players, and b) indeed ones that compliment each other.

Leaving aside the obvious near-term small stuff -- Schroeder over Smart, Nesmith taking some of Richardson's minutes -- the Cs are finally going to have to face this question (likely without choice) between now and the FA period next summer:

What is the best possible package they can get for Brown, Smart, and filler (Richardson, Horford) and / or picks in one or two large trades?

Because if Stevens doesn't get serious on that topic, there's significant risk teams will smell blood in the water (namely: Tatum being unhappy), and the value of the package will go down as the Cs hand is forced due to spiraling locker room and floor fit issues.

My personal feeling is this: if the Cs traded every player on the roster today other than Tatum and Bob Williams, i'd be 100% ok with that. Because in the next couple seasons, I bet that's exactly what happens.

if there is indeed that kind of a firesafe on this team, Timelord will be out the door before Jaylen and several others.

Couldn't disagree more. He's young, of ascending value / impact, on a reasonable contract, and impacts the game without needing the ball. He duplicates no player on the roster. You keep him.

he's less skilled than others and has a well-established issue with missing games for health reasons. 

he's an NBA caliber player that I don't think we're using to his potential but as far as pieces to be used in trades, Jaylen (as an example) would be a building block you keep unless blown away in a deal.  Timelord is not a mere throw-in for a trade but he's definitely playing a position that needs to be upgraded.

less skilled than others at what? he has the most unique skill set on the team - period.

as for injuries, take your pick of players who have worked their way thru such concerns when young. Joel Embiid couldn't stay healthy when young either -- should the Sixers have given up on him? Bob's hardly Romeo Langford..... he needs to continue to work on his body and he'll be fine.

regardless, you're missing my point. the one i am making is: there's a wide open question as to whether Tatum and Brown can successfully co-lead a championship level basketball team -- and i believe that's going to come to a head one way or another sooner than many others do. I hope it does to the affirmative, but the (fairly large) sample size is starting to get ugly.

You mean like the Jays winning more playoff games as a tandem since Tatum entered the league than 28 total teams? That sample size?

I seriously doubt you actually buy that’s a meaningful measure of their success, nor their fit as a duo. The more the team has become “theirs”, the worse the team has gotten.

you mean the worse the talent and depth becomes, the worse the record has gotten

I'd agree their talent has not gone up -- particularly their young bench talent due to poor drafting. But haven't Tatum and Brown improved during that time? Shouldn't Smart have?

Disturbing trend is when vets (Tatum, Brown, Schroder, Richardson) shut out young guys (Romeo, Pritchard) from participation in the offensive sets.  Schroder particularly was guilty of this multiple times last night.  These young players have demonstrated capability to contribute, but hard to do without opportunity.  Romeo to his credit stays very focused defensively.  Still waiting for Nesmith to get his chance.

Cs are dead last in the league in 4th quarter assists and FG% I believe. So, yeah.... ball's not exactly flyin' around to the open guy.....

[DefenseWinsChamps]

Watched parts of the Nets/Hawks and Warriors/Hornets games. What is so notable is how often the best players (Durant, Curry, Green, Ball, Hayward, Young) make such quick decisions with the basketball. They catch and shoot, or catch and take one dribble to attack a closeout, and then shoot or pass. They don't try to break down their man. They just play with such tempo.

Brown has been doing this a lot more this season. Tatum is lagging behind. I think he's overthinking and trying so hard to become a playmaker, and it's resulting in turnovers, or the defense getting reset, which forces him or others to take a tough shot.

I would settle for bad, quick shots by Tatum over what he's currently doing.

I see signs of this. I would it if the Celtics' offense started looking more and more like the Warriors or Nets with their fast passing.

[LilRip]

Watched parts of the Nets/Hawks and Warriors/Hornets games. What is so notable is how often the best players (Durant, Curry, Green, Ball, Hayward, Young) make such quick decisions with the basketball. They catch and shoot, or catch and take one dribble to attack a closeout, and then shoot or pass. They don't try to break down their man. They just play with such tempo.

Brown has been doing this a lot more this season. Tatum is lagging behind. I think he's overthinking and trying so hard to become a playmaker, and it's resulting in turnovers, or the defense getting reset, which forces him or others to take a tough shot.

I would settle for bad, quick shots by Tatum over what he's currently doing.

I see signs of this. I would it if the Celtics' offense started looking more and more like the Warriors or Nets with their fast passing.

It’s because of all the emphasis on “ball movement”. Ime talked a lot about that in the offseason. Now, I wasn’t a fan of all the iso ball last year, but this year it seems like Tatum is literally waiting for the double to come so he can dish it out. I’d rather Tatum have an attackers mentality and just always look to score instead of looking to get the team going. Unfortunately, probably outside of Schroder, no one else on the team can do that.

Also, is it just me or is Tatum taking a large chunk of his shots from mid range? Something he did less of last year. It kinda reminds me of sophomore year Tatum. It’s gotta be by design that he’s taking so many mid range jumpers right?

[PhoSita]

I feel like this boils down to Ime’s woeful management of rotations as much as anything

It turns out going from a top 5-10 coach to a bottom 5 coach makes a difference.  Who knew

[Who]

Watched parts of the Nets/Hawks and Warriors/Hornets games. What is so notable is how often the best players (Durant, Curry, Green, Ball, Hayward, Young) make such quick decisions with the basketball. They catch and shoot, or catch and take one dribble to attack a closeout, and then shoot or pass. They don't try to break down their man. They just play with such tempo.

Brown has been doing this a lot more this season. Tatum is lagging behind. I think he's overthinking and trying so hard to become a playmaker, and it's resulting in turnovers, or the defense getting reset, which forces him or others to take a tough shot.

I would settle for bad, quick shots by Tatum over what he's currently doing.

I see signs of this. I would it if the Celtics' offense started looking more and more like the Warriors or Nets with their fast passing.

This was always the most important issue for Carmelo Anthony - how quickly he made his move off the catch.

When he made quick moves, it was easier for his teammates to operate around him. When he made slow moves, the offense stagnated and his teammates would struggle to get into the game.

George Karl harped on Melo time and time again about this but Melo never got the message.

[Moranis]

I think the "heart" discussion is a little overrated in Boston. Team needs a) better players, and b) indeed ones that compliment each other.

Leaving aside the obvious near-term small stuff -- Schroeder over Smart, Nesmith taking some of Richardson's minutes -- the Cs are finally going to have to face this question (likely without choice) between now and the FA period next summer:

What is the best possible package they can get for Brown, Smart, and filler (Richardson, Horford) and / or picks in one or two large trades?

Because if Stevens doesn't get serious on that topic, there's significant risk teams will smell blood in the water (namely: Tatum being unhappy), and the value of the package will go down as the Cs hand is forced due to spiraling locker room and floor fit issues.

My personal feeling is this: if the Cs traded every player on the roster today other than Tatum and Bob Williams, i'd be 100% ok with that. Because in the next couple seasons, I bet that's exactly what happens.

if there is indeed that kind of a firesafe on this team, Timelord will be out the door before Jaylen and several others.

Couldn't disagree more. He's young, of ascending value / impact, on a reasonable contract, and impacts the game without needing the ball. He duplicates no player on the roster. You keep him.

he's less skilled than others and has a well-established issue with missing games for health reasons. 

he's an NBA caliber player that I don't think we're using to his potential but as far as pieces to be used in trades, Jaylen (as an example) would be a building block you keep unless blown away in a deal.  Timelord is not a mere throw-in for a trade but he's definitely playing a position that needs to be upgraded.

less skilled than others at what? he has the most unique skill set on the team - period.

as for injuries, take your pick of players who have worked their way thru such concerns when young. Joel Embiid couldn't stay healthy when young either -- should the Sixers have given up on him? Bob's hardly Romeo Langford..... he needs to continue to work on his body and he'll be fine.

regardless, you're missing my point. the one i am making is: there's a wide open question as to whether Tatum and Brown can successfully co-lead a championship level basketball team -- and i believe that's going to come to a head one way or another sooner than many others do. I hope it does to the affirmative, but the (fairly large) sample size is starting to get ugly.

You mean like the Jays winning more playoff games as a tandem since Tatum entered the league than 28 total teams? That sample size?

I seriously doubt you actually buy that’s a meaningful measure of their success, nor their fit as a duo. The more the team has become “theirs”, the worse the team has gotten.

you mean the worse the talent and depth becomes, the worse the record has gotten

I'd agree their talent has not gone up -- particularly their young bench talent due to poor drafting. But haven't Tatum and Brown improved during that time? Shouldn't Smart have?

The talent drop off is immense.  Remember this is what the C's looked like in Tatum's rookie year

2017-18
PG - Irving, Rozier, Larkin
SG - Brown, Smart
SF - Tatum, Hayward (injured year), Ojeleye, Nader
PF - Horford, Morris, Theis
C - Baynes, Monroe

2018-19 (similar though adding RW for Monroe)
PG - Irving, Rozier, Wanamaker
SG - Brown, Smart, Dozier
SF - Tatum, Hayward, Semi
PF - Horford, Morris
C - Baynes, Theis, R. Williams

2019-20 (losses - Irving, Horford, Rozier, Morris, Baynes - adds Walker, Langford, Kanter, G. Williams)
PG - Walker, Wanamaker, Waters
SG - Brown, Smart, Langford
SF - Hayward
PF - Tatum, G. Williams, Semi
C - Theis, Kanter, R. Williams

That was the big offseason of losses with very little in the way of replacement outside of Kemba who is less talented than Irving.  The following summer Boston lost Hayward and replaced him with Tristan Thompson.  Again a major talent downgrade.

So yes, Tatum and Brown are better, but the surrounding talent is significantly worse.  Ainge did an absolutely terrible job basically the minute after he made the draft pick trade for Tatum, he should have retired.  Boston would be much better off if he had.

[gouki88]

I feel like this boils down to Ime’s woeful management of rotations as much as anything

It turns out going from a top 5-10 coach to a bottom 5 coach makes a difference.  Who knew

If only we had interviewed Doug Collins...