Bench Smart / Marcus Calls Out The Jays

[boscel33]

Start Schroeder over him!

Schroeder has out played him.

I thought this when we signed Dennis.  He would allow Smart to roll back to the 6th man role which I thought he excelled in.

[ozgod]

I keep hearing how Tatum is taller than his 6’8” listing, put on all this muscle, and should be able to play in the paint now. Why, in all of creation, is Tatum taking outside shots when the Bulls have 4 starters that are 6’6” or under, and a center that can’t defend? And when Tatum did drive to the rim, he seemed to be missing layups. Why was he not posting up DeRozan or Caruso? I guarantee if he did, he would have also attempted more than the 4 free throws he had last night.

I have to admit, that Bulls team is fun to watch. Players that move without the ball, and the ball is constantly being passed for open looks. But at least the Celtics have the Jay’s/ball stoppers. I have been questioning Brown’s basketball IQ, but I’m starting to think the same criticism may apply to Tatum too.

They trapped him as soon as he posted up, and the people he passed to were able to make shots through the 3rd quarter but not the fourth.

[droopdog7]

Maybe Marcus it right?  But clearly the fans cannot come to grips with that possibility.

[droopdog7]

I keep hearing how Tatum is taller than his 6’8” listing, put on all this muscle, and should be able to play in the paint now. Why, in all of creation, is Tatum taking outside shots when the Bulls have 4 starters that are 6’6” or under, and a center that can’t defend? And when Tatum did drive to the rim, he seemed to be missing layups. Why was he not posting up DeRozan or Caruso? I guarantee if he did, he would have also attempted more than the 4 free throws he had last night.

I have to admit, that Bulls team is fun to watch. Players that move without the ball, and the ball is constantly being passed for open looks. But at least the Celtics have the Jay’s/ball stoppers. I have been questioning Brown’s basketball IQ, but I’m starting to think the same criticism may apply to Tatum too.

They trapped him as soon as he posted up, and the people he passed to were able to make shots through the 3rd quarter but not the fourth.

No, the issue is that Tatum isn't able to make teams pay when they double.  He passes out of desperation, not in a aggressive or strategic way.  That is his (and brown's) entire issue and it was spelled out in a story last year.  Fans continue to ignore the truth when it's right in their face.

[ozgod]

I keep hearing how Tatum is taller than his 6’8” listing, put on all this muscle, and should be able to play in the paint now. Why, in all of creation, is Tatum taking outside shots when the Bulls have 4 starters that are 6’6” or under, and a center that can’t defend? And when Tatum did drive to the rim, he seemed to be missing layups. Why was he not posting up DeRozan or Caruso? I guarantee if he did, he would have also attempted more than the 4 free throws he had last night.

I have to admit, that Bulls team is fun to watch. Players that move without the ball, and the ball is constantly being passed for open looks. But at least the Celtics have the Jay’s/ball stoppers. I have been questioning Brown’s basketball IQ, but I’m starting to think the same criticism may apply to Tatum too.

They trapped him as soon as he posted up, and the people he passed to were able to make shots through the 3rd quarter but not the fourth.

No, the issue is that Tatum isn't able to make teams pay when they double.  He passes out of desperation, not in a aggressive or strategic way.  That is his (and brown's) entire issue and it was spelled out in a story last year.  Fans continue to ignore the truth when it's right in their face.

The point was that he *was* trying to post them up, Ime's whole (and only) strategy is to look for mismatches from switches...the issue is one of execution. Tatum has never been great at passing the ball out of a trap because he holds it too long. It wasn't for lack of trying to post up though, which is the point I was responding to.

[rocknrollforyoursoul]

marcus is playing horrible basketball, and using the press to callout the j’s or ime isn’t appropriate. that said, he’s not wrong.

Pretty much this. I mean, Tatum literally dribbled himself into the corner and got trapped several times last night during the 4th quarter, and didn't even look to move the ball until it was too late.

Tatum, IMO, is terrible at handling double teams. It's like he learned nothing from that Miami series.

[Roy H.]

marcus is playing horrible basketball, and using the press to callout the j’s or ime isn’t appropriate. that said, he’s not wrong.

Pretty much this. I mean, Tatum literally dribbled himself into the corner and got trapped several times last night during the 4th quarter, and didn't even look to move the ball until it was too late.

Tatum, IMO, is terrible at handling double teams. It's like he learned nothing from that Miami series.

I’d love to see in depth tracking data.

https://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/

Through the first handful of games, Tatum is the 18th most double-teamed player in the NBA, getting doubled about 27% of the time.  The team only averages 0.95 points per possession when JT is doubled, which is 13th out of the 20 most doubled guys.  In the very early going, he has been better than Chris Paul, Paul George and SGA, and within striking distance of Steph Curry.

This will be interesting to track as the season goes on.

 

[Mahk E Mahk]

I keep hearing how Tatum is taller than his 6’8” listing, put on all this muscle, and should be able to play in the paint now. Why, in all of creation, is Tatum taking outside shots when the Bulls have 4 starters that are 6’6” or under, and a center that can’t defend? And when Tatum did drive to the rim, he seemed to be missing layups. Why was he not posting up DeRozan or Caruso? I guarantee if he did, he would have also attempted more than the 4 free throws he had last night.

I have to admit, that Bulls team is fun to watch. Players that move without the ball, and the ball is constantly being passed for open looks. But at least the Celtics have the Jay’s/ball stoppers. I have been questioning Brown’s basketball IQ, but I’m starting to think the same criticism may apply to Tatum too.

They trapped him as soon as he posted up, and the people he passed to were able to make shots through the 3rd quarter but not the fourth.

No, the issue is that Tatum isn't able to make teams pay when they double.  He passes out of desperation, not in a aggressive or strategic way.  That is his (and brown's) entire issue and it was spelled out in a story last year.  Fans continue to ignore the truth when it's right in their face.

The point was that he *was* trying to post them up, Ime's whole (and only) strategy is to look for mismatches from switches...the issue is one of execution. Tatum has never been great at passing the ball out of a trap because he holds it too long. It wasn't for lack of trying to post up though, which is the point I was responding to.

this^

the key to making a defense pay is to make a quick pass out of the double team before the defense can rotate. in most cases, the recipient should make the extra pass for an easy open look, staying ahead of the defensive rotation and forcing the defense to expend extra energy (the penalty for double teaming).

one caveat, if the initial pass out of the double team is a skip pass, which can be difficult out of a well organized double team, the second pass isn’t always needed.

tatum holds it too long AND his teammates too often fail to make the extra pass AND no one is slashing to the basket when their man leaves them in the defensive rotation.

[86MaxwellSmart]

We have a team that does not move without the ball...Terrible offense, we should have hired D'antoni...at least it would be fun to watch.

[86MaxwellSmart]

Also, I heard that the players in the league don't like the new Wilson balls.

[Celtics2021]

The Celtics are 20 points per 100 possessions better when Smart is on the court compared to off it.
https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612738&VsPlayerID=203935

The Celtics are 9 points better when Tatum is on the court than off (and are a net negative in either case).
https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612738&VsPlayerID=1628369

The Celtics are 6 points better with Schroder on the court (but again, are a net negative).
https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612738&VsPlayerID=203471

Smart isn't the problem.  He does make winning plays.  He doesn't make many winning shots.  I'd argue Tatum's play has been more of the problem, and I don't get the Schroder love, but whatever.  But the real problem is this guy:
https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?TeamID=1610612738&VsPlayerID=1626196


I liked the move over the summer, but it is not working out with him yet.

EDITED due to bad links.

[Roy H.]

The Celtics are 20 points per 100 possessions better when Smart is on the court compared to off it.

https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203935&VsPlayerID=203935&TeamID=1610612738

The Celtics are 9 points better when Tatum is on the court than off (and are a net negative in either case).

The Celtics are 6 points better with Schroder on the court (but again, are a net negative).

Smart isn't the problem.  He does make winning plays.  He doesn't make many winning shots.  I'd argue Tatum's play has been more of the problem, and I don't get the Schroder love, but whatever.  But the real problem is this guy:

https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203935&VsPlayerID=1626196&TeamID=1610612738

I liked the move over the summer, but it is not working out with him yet.

He is a +10 through six games, so it’s not like the team is performing especially well with him out there.

[Rosco917]

We have a team that does not move without the ball...Terrible offense, we should have hired D'antoni...at least it would be fun to watch.

Id rather hire Marc Jackson.

[slamtheking]

Also, I heard that the players in the league don't like the new Wilson balls.

[Celtics2021]

The Celtics are 20 points per 100 possessions better when Smart is on the court compared to off it.

https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203935&VsPlayerID=203935&TeamID=1610612738

The Celtics are 9 points better when Tatum is on the court than off (and are a net negative in either case).

The Celtics are 6 points better with Schroder on the court (but again, are a net negative).

Smart isn't the problem.  He does make winning plays.  He doesn't make many winning shots.  I'd argue Tatum's play has been more of the problem, and I don't get the Schroder love, but whatever.  But the real problem is this guy:

https://www.nba.com/stats/vs/advanced/#!?PlayerID=203935&VsPlayerID=1626196&TeamID=1610612738

I liked the move over the summer, but it is not working out with him yet.

He is a +10 through six games, so it’s not like the team is performing especially well with him out there.

And they're a -50ish without him.  Our primary starting lineup, Smart-Brown-Tatum-Horford-Williams, is outscoring opponents, relatively substantially.  It's going aginst other starting units, because it's only out there for about 5 minutes in the first and third quarters.  It's what happens after that's the problem.  The biggest problem is Josh Richardson, and the second-biggest problem is Tatum not performing at the superstar level he needs to be at for this team to be successful.  Smart isn't the problem.  He's doing his thing.  Some of it is ugly, some of it makes the other team ugly.  Beal couldn't buy a bucket when Smart was on him last week -- Smart gets sick, and Beal looked a lot better the next game.