NBA Season 2021-22

[celticsclay]

Moranis, your Mavs are getting beat up pretty good…

I kind of think he had to be trolling with the Brunson take at half. But yeah they have so much less talent than the suns. There was a reason Dallas had astronomical odds to win the west or title even after beating the last breaths of Utah. You need more than one 1.5 good players to win even if one is a top 3 players.

I was not.  Brunson averaged essentially 28 ppg with a TS% of 58.3 in the 1st round series.  In the 2 games in this series his TS% is 37.5 and he is averaging 11 ppg.  Dinwiddie is down from basically 15 to 10.  They need at least one of those guys to show up.  Kidd said it after the game i.e. Luka needs help.  Brunson in particular has been awful shooting the ball.  On the season, Brunson was 54.5 from 2 and 37.3 from 3.  In the 2 games he is 33.3 from 2 and 25.0 from 3.  He just isn't hitting his shots.  He also isn't defending well.  Luka is obviously not a good defender, but Brunson can, and should, be a lot better defensively than he has been. 

Going back to Dallas I'd expect Brunson to play a lot better.  If he doesn't, the Mavs are done, but if he just shoots better, the Mavs will be fine because the Suns can't stop Luka.  He just can't do it alone.

You don't think part of this is that Brunson and Dinwiddie did better against Utah cause they have pretty mediocre perimeter defense? I mean Mitchell is never an incredible defender but he was flat out awful that series. 

[Moranis]

Is James Harden entering that Clyde Drexler joining the Rockets stage of his career?

Where Drexler was no longer able to be the franchise guy in Portland, his powers were declining and he was able to hop on Hakeem's back, let Hakeem be the man and the secondary star to provide Houston with more offensive variety to win a well a 2nd title.

Is this Harden's new stage in his career with Embiid as Hakeem? Harden no longer the franchise, declining powers but still potent as a secondary option. As a release valve when teams surround Embiid.

Drexler went from being a top 10 player to a top 20 player in that period. Is Harden going through the same transition - even if he gets his butt back in shape.

Harden is in year 13.  He has played 942 regular season games and another 145 in the playoffs.  He has been among the league leaders in mpg and played a ton of games every year (until the last 2). 

He just has a ton of wear on his legs.  He may be done or maybe his hamstring is bothering him.  There was a 2 month stretch earlier this year (when KD was out) that Harden was looking like he in his near MVP form again.  So maybe the hamstring is slowing him down or maybe it just wasn't sustainable for him.  Be interesting to see what he looks like at the start of next year. 

[Moranis]

Moranis, your Mavs are getting beat up pretty good…

I kind of think he had to be trolling with the Brunson take at half. But yeah they have so much less talent than the suns. There was a reason Dallas had astronomical odds to win the west or title even after beating the last breaths of Utah. You need more than one 1.5 good players to win even if one is a top 3 players.

I was not.  Brunson averaged essentially 28 ppg with a TS% of 58.3 in the 1st round series.  In the 2 games in this series his TS% is 37.5 and he is averaging 11 ppg.  Dinwiddie is down from basically 15 to 10.  They need at least one of those guys to show up.  Kidd said it after the game i.e. Luka needs help.  Brunson in particular has been awful shooting the ball.  On the season, Brunson was 54.5 from 2 and 37.3 from 3.  In the 2 games he is 33.3 from 2 and 25.0 from 3.  He just isn't hitting his shots.  He also isn't defending well.  Luka is obviously not a good defender, but Brunson can, and should, be a lot better defensively than he has been. 

Going back to Dallas I'd expect Brunson to play a lot better.  If he doesn't, the Mavs are done, but if he just shoots better, the Mavs will be fine because the Suns can't stop Luka.  He just can't do it alone.

You don't think part of this is that Brunson and Dinwiddie did better against Utah cause they have pretty mediocre perimeter defense? I mean Mitchell is never an incredible defender but he was flat out awful that series.

well year better defense should cause lesser play, but as I said after that I expected them to be more in line with their season averages (especially Brunson).

[Who]

Regarding Doncic here:  am I the only one who thinks he tries to do too much by himself?  He's a hell of a scorer and a very good facilitator.  But man, you have to trust your teammates with responsibilities.  Let them do things, let them be engaged.  There's a time for Doncic to take over and run the show.  That time isn't "all 48 minutes of the game."   

I see Luka as the next Oscar Robertson and LeBron James.

Oscar Robertson had a great reaction, a telling reaction in terms of how he saw himself and how he saw the game of basketball when Bob Cousy took over as coach in Cincinnati. Cousy wanted Oscar to play the PG position like Cousy played. He wanted Oscar to share the ball more. To get more team ball movement; more people involved. To play more off the ball and rely on his teammates more. A more team orientated style rather than a PG-centric offense or a helio-centric offense as is popular to say today.

Oscar did not understand this line of thought. He said (paraphrasing) "I am the best decision maker on the team, why would I give the ball to a less skilled player who makes worse decisions and gives the team worse outcomes?" Whereas if "I make the decisions, I will make better decisions and the team will be better off". Essentially, the team is better when the best decision maker is the one making the decisions which was Oscar.

And because Oscar and LeBron are so unbelievably brilliant and dominant they were able to make this strategy work effectively in ways that lesser players simply are not able to. And because of their size and skill-level, like Luka, they were able to handle more offensive responsibility than any normal star players were.

As Auerbach said, Oscar was the best playmaker the NBA had seen up to that point. Playmaking in terms of making a play and creating a shot either for himself or others. Oscar could do that more often / frequently and more effectively / efficiently than anyone else the NBA had seen.

I see LeBron in the same light and Luka in the same light. I also consider CP3 to be another one of these players in his prime but he has softened that over the last 3-4 years (due to declining powers) and is playing team-ball for the first time in his career rather than helio-centric ball (which I do believe was an issue for his teams in his prime, he had the skills but lacked the size of these bigger more dominant wings).

It takes a rare player to be able to be successful while playing this style of basketball.

I firmly believe LeBron would have won more titles had he played more team basketball than helio-centric basketball so I do I still see it as a fair point to discuss even when talking about rare players like Luka who are talented enough to be successful in this style of play.

And an absolute necessity to discuss when talking about less talented players who simply do not have the skill to be successful in this style of play and must learn to play a more team-orientated style of offensive basketball in order to win in this league.

------

So, I do see Luka as being able to win in this style. It does not bother me (greatly) therefore as I think DAL can build a title team without Luka changing.

Lesser players HAVE TO change in order to win a title.

I do believe LeBron would have won more if he was less ball-dominant and more adaptable to his teammates, therefore making better use of his versatility, and I do see similar issue with Luka. Then again, Luka has never played with a legit co-star so we are still in a wait-and-see mode in terms of whether he is willing to adapt or not.

I do not see Luka changing his game as a priority. More of a preference. If I were DAL, I would not be focused on it. I would be focused on putting better pieces around him and allowing him to win his way because that will lead to Championships as is.

[Who]

Barkley was on Sirius XM and blamed Harden's quick and sudden demise in part on Mike D'Antoni.  Said his offense requires so much from the lead guy that it just takes years off their career.  Said we are seeing that with Harden and is why he felt Nash just fell off a cliff suddenly as well at the end.  Not sure I buy it, but it was something I had never thought about till Barkley said it.

I don't know.  If Harden was a fitness nut I might agree, but the guy has noticeably put on weight and doesn't work on his conditioning like he should.

Agreed, Nash was 39 when he signed with the Lakers. Before then, up until age 38, he was still regarded as a pretty good to elite point guard. I remember how hyped up the media/Rondo got when he visited the Garden in 2011 with the Suns, two years before he retired. I think those injuries were just bad luck/age catching up, not necessarily premature at all.

I saw Nash's decline as moving from a team that was setup to maximize his skill-set to moving to a team where they had a different style of play. A team that had other talented players who needed the ball in their hands more often in order to make plays such as Kobe, Pau and to a lesser degree Bynum. This gave Nash less opportunity to dictate games. It made him more of an off-ball player than a constant on-ball dictator of games.

It was never a good fit for him from a basketball perspective.

And then things went from bad to worse when injuries started to hit and he went from major drop-off to dropping off the map leading to retirement.

He left it to late to move teams. This often happens with older guys. They are only able to be that effective when everything is setup to show them in the best possible light. Take them out of that setup and that age-related decline becomes much more evident.

So I disagree with Chunk on Nash. It was not about over-use. It was about moving from a scene that catered to Nash's abilities to one that did not + then injuries took care of the rest.

Even without injuries, Nash was going to be a 12-13ppg 5-7apg guy just due to the different system and different teammates. Having to give up the ball more and share it. His defensive weaknesses would be more important because his decreased offensive contributions wouldn't make up for them as much. Still, his elite shooting and good passing should have allowed him to be a good starting quality PG albeit no longer a star player if not for the injuries. It was the injuries that destroyed him. That stopped him from being starting caliber player and pushed him out of the league.

[Who]

On Luka, LeBron and Oscar

I have softened my stance on this style of play over the last few years. I used to focus on winning-maximization and believed this style failed to do this ... and yes, I do believe this is still true.

But I have moved on to accepting it is still a winning style of basketball when you have rare exceptional talents like Luka and choose instead to just appreciate their ability for being able to win this way whereas regular mortals cannot.

Accepting the bad with the good. Well mostly ... anyway.

It is not Celtics basketball but it is still winning basketball (if you have one of these rare talents).

[Vermont Green]

On Luka, LeBron and Oscar

I have softened my stance on this style of play over the last few years. I used to focus on winning-maximization and believed this style failed to do this ... and yes, I do believe this is still true.

But I have moved on to accepting it is still a winning style of basketball when you have rare exceptional talents like Luka and choose instead to just appreciate their ability for being able to win this way whereas regular mortals cannot.

Accepting the bad with the good. Well mostly ... anyway.

It is not Celtics basketball but it is still winning basketball (if you have one of these rare talents).

Luka may still figure it out or evolve as a player but right now, he is what he is and that is a just a single dominant player.  Westbrook was a single dominant player.  Harden too.  I put Luka somewhere in between.

Any analysis of Luka for this season is kind of moot as the team around him is lacking.  The Mavs made the playoffs and won a round.  That is likely it for this season.  That isn't a bad thing for either Luka or the team but they just need to build from there.

I am not sure what type of players or overall team will be best to put around Luka.  I think that is the problem.  I thought Porzingis was going to be a good fit.  Even health aside, it didn't work out that way.  Luka is going to have to evolve his game.  Accept a true #2 and give up some of the control to him.  He will only go so far trying to do it all on his own.

[celticsclay]

Barkley was on Sirius XM and blamed Harden's quick and sudden demise in part on Mike D'Antoni.  Said his offense requires so much from the lead guy that it just takes years off their career.  Said we are seeing that with Harden and is why he felt Nash just fell off a cliff suddenly as well at the end.  Not sure I buy it, but it was something I had never thought about till Barkley said it.

I don't know.  If Harden was a fitness nut I might agree, but the guy has noticeably put on weight and doesn't work on his conditioning like he should.

Agreed, Nash was 39 when he signed with the Lakers. Before then, up until age 38, he was still regarded as a pretty good to elite point guard. I remember how hyped up the media/Rondo got when he visited the Garden in 2011 with the Suns, two years before he retired. I think those injuries were just bad luck/age catching up, not necessarily premature at all.

I saw Nash's decline as moving from a team that was setup to maximize his skill-set to moving to a team where they had a different style of play. A team that had other talented players who needed the ball in their hands more often in order to make plays such as Kobe, Pau and to a lesser degree Bynum. This gave Nash less opportunity to dictate games. It made him more of an off-ball player than a constant on-ball dictator of games.

It was never a good fit for him from a basketball perspective.

And then things went from bad to worse when injuries started to hit and he went from major drop-off to dropping off the map leading to retirement.

He left it to late to move teams. This often happens with older guys. They are only able to be that effective when everything is setup to show them in the best possible light. Take them out of that setup and that age-related decline becomes much more evident.

So I disagree with Chunk on Nash. It was not about over-use. It was about moving from a scene that catered to Nash's abilities to one that did not + then injuries took care of the rest.

Even without injuries, Nash was going to be a 12-13ppg 5-7apg guy just due to the different system and different teammates. Having to give up the ball more and share it. His defensive weaknesses would be more important because his decreased offensive contributions wouldn't make up for them as much. Still, his elite shooting and good passing should have allowed him to be a good starting quality PG albeit no longer a star player if not for the injuries. It was the injuries that destroyed him. That stopped him from being starting caliber player and pushed him out of the league.

We literally have no idea how Nash would have fit with that team if he didn't have his injury. This had nothing to do with who was on the team or their style of play. He just immediately broke his knee in his second game with the Lakers and reported he was never the same after that. He said the knee still gives him problems to these day. He tried to fight through it for almost 2 years, but just couldn't do it. There was no real decline, there was just basically a career ending injury:

https://sports.yahoo.com/steve-nash-says-hes-still-not-the-same-after-breaking-his-knee-with-the-lakers-in-2012-182128208.html

[gouki88]

Regarding Doncic here:  am I the only one who thinks he tries to do too much by himself?  He's a hell of a scorer and a very good facilitator.  But man, you have to trust your teammates with responsibilities.  Let them do things, let them be engaged.  There's a time for Doncic to take over and run the show.  That time isn't "all 48 minutes of the game."   

One of the things that I've harped on over the last couple of months is that making teammates better isn't just about putting more assists in the box score.  Not every roleplayer is meant to be turned into a catch-and-shoot statue on the perimeter, but that doesn't mean you can't help them maximize the skills they do have.  Imagine if the Warriors just stuck Draymond in the corner every possession while Curry dribbled the air out of the ball.  That would be a huge waste of Draymond's abilities, right?  I feel like one of the underdiscussed parts of our turnaround was that we started putting Smart and Horford and these other guys in positions to succeed, rather than trying to pigeonhole them into roles they aren't well-suited to.  Tatum is quietly turning into a f***ing problem off the ball, and that wreaks all kinds of havoc on defenses that even our lesser players are able to take advantage of.

Of course, the part that I'm leaving out is that Luka's best teammates are Jalen Brunson and Spencer Dinwiddie.  Perhaps he's perfectly willing to share responsibility and the other Mavs just aren't talented enough to deliver consistently enough, so he tries to do it himself.  It's hard to tell the difference from a distance.

Yeah, I think it's a rational decision based upon an evaluation of the ability of his teammates. The guys that surround him are incredibly inconsistent and streaky.

[pokeKingCurtis]

Regarding Doncic here:  am I the only one who thinks he tries to do too much by himself?  He's a hell of a scorer and a very good facilitator.  But man, you have to trust your teammates with responsibilities.  Let them do things, let them be engaged.  There's a time for Doncic to take over and run the show.  That time isn't "all 48 minutes of the game."   

One of the things that I've harped on over the last couple of months is that making teammates better isn't just about putting more assists in the box score.  Not every roleplayer is meant to be turned into a catch-and-shoot statue on the perimeter, but that doesn't mean you can't help them maximize the skills they do have.  Imagine if the Warriors just stuck Draymond in the corner every possession while Curry dribbled the air out of the ball.  That would be a huge waste of Draymond's abilities, right?  I feel like one of the underdiscussed parts of our turnaround was that we started putting Smart and Horford and these other guys in positions to succeed, rather than trying to pigeonhole them into roles they aren't well-suited to.  Tatum is quietly turning into a f***ing problem off the ball, and that wreaks all kinds of havoc on defenses that even our lesser players are able to take advantage of.

Of course, the part that I'm leaving out is that Luka's best teammates are Jalen Brunson and Spencer Dinwiddie.  Perhaps he's perfectly willing to share responsibility and the other Mavs just aren't talented enough to deliver consistently enough, so he tries to do it himself.  It's hard to tell the difference from a distance.

Yeah, I think it's a rational decision based upon an evaluation of the ability of his teammates. The guys that surround him are incredibly inconsistent and streaky.

He didn't really pass to Porzingas either when Porzingas was there

[gouki88]

Regarding Doncic here:  am I the only one who thinks he tries to do too much by himself?  He's a hell of a scorer and a very good facilitator.  But man, you have to trust your teammates with responsibilities.  Let them do things, let them be engaged.  There's a time for Doncic to take over and run the show.  That time isn't "all 48 minutes of the game."   

One of the things that I've harped on over the last couple of months is that making teammates better isn't just about putting more assists in the box score.  Not every roleplayer is meant to be turned into a catch-and-shoot statue on the perimeter, but that doesn't mean you can't help them maximize the skills they do have.  Imagine if the Warriors just stuck Draymond in the corner every possession while Curry dribbled the air out of the ball.  That would be a huge waste of Draymond's abilities, right?  I feel like one of the underdiscussed parts of our turnaround was that we started putting Smart and Horford and these other guys in positions to succeed, rather than trying to pigeonhole them into roles they aren't well-suited to.  Tatum is quietly turning into a f***ing problem off the ball, and that wreaks all kinds of havoc on defenses that even our lesser players are able to take advantage of.

Of course, the part that I'm leaving out is that Luka's best teammates are Jalen Brunson and Spencer Dinwiddie.  Perhaps he's perfectly willing to share responsibility and the other Mavs just aren't talented enough to deliver consistently enough, so he tries to do it himself.  It's hard to tell the difference from a distance.

Yeah, I think it's a rational decision based upon an evaluation of the ability of his teammates. The guys that surround him are incredibly inconsistent and streaky.

He didn't really pass to Porzingas either when Porzingas was there

Kristaps' FGA per game was highest in Dallas, compared to New York or Washington. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment.

Kristaps was also only a part-time teammate with how often he was in rehab, so I'm not sure how much chemistry could actually be built. I think the terrible level of play Kristaps dished up in the playoffs last season was the nail in the coffin

[pokeKingCurtis]

Regarding Doncic here:  am I the only one who thinks he tries to do too much by himself?  He's a hell of a scorer and a very good facilitator.  But man, you have to trust your teammates with responsibilities.  Let them do things, let them be engaged.  There's a time for Doncic to take over and run the show.  That time isn't "all 48 minutes of the game."   

One of the things that I've harped on over the last couple of months is that making teammates better isn't just about putting more assists in the box score.  Not every roleplayer is meant to be turned into a catch-and-shoot statue on the perimeter, but that doesn't mean you can't help them maximize the skills they do have.  Imagine if the Warriors just stuck Draymond in the corner every possession while Curry dribbled the air out of the ball.  That would be a huge waste of Draymond's abilities, right?  I feel like one of the underdiscussed parts of our turnaround was that we started putting Smart and Horford and these other guys in positions to succeed, rather than trying to pigeonhole them into roles they aren't well-suited to.  Tatum is quietly turning into a f***ing problem off the ball, and that wreaks all kinds of havoc on defenses that even our lesser players are able to take advantage of.

Of course, the part that I'm leaving out is that Luka's best teammates are Jalen Brunson and Spencer Dinwiddie.  Perhaps he's perfectly willing to share responsibility and the other Mavs just aren't talented enough to deliver consistently enough, so he tries to do it himself.  It's hard to tell the difference from a distance.

Yeah, I think it's a rational decision based upon an evaluation of the ability of his teammates. The guys that surround him are incredibly inconsistent and streaky.

He didn't really pass to Porzingas either when Porzingas was there

Kristaps' FGA per game was highest in Dallas, compared to New York or Washington. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment.

Kristaps was also only a part-time teammate with how often he was in rehab, so I'm not sure how much chemistry could actually be built. I think the terrible level of play Kristaps dished up in the playoffs last season was the nail in the coffin

I'm just basing this on media reports.

Could very well be that Porzingas was damaged goods as you suggested - in that case maybe the Mavs made a huge mistake getting Porzingas in the first place.

[gouki88]

Regarding Doncic here:  am I the only one who thinks he tries to do too much by himself?  He's a hell of a scorer and a very good facilitator.  But man, you have to trust your teammates with responsibilities.  Let them do things, let them be engaged.  There's a time for Doncic to take over and run the show.  That time isn't "all 48 minutes of the game."   

One of the things that I've harped on over the last couple of months is that making teammates better isn't just about putting more assists in the box score.  Not every roleplayer is meant to be turned into a catch-and-shoot statue on the perimeter, but that doesn't mean you can't help them maximize the skills they do have.  Imagine if the Warriors just stuck Draymond in the corner every possession while Curry dribbled the air out of the ball.  That would be a huge waste of Draymond's abilities, right?  I feel like one of the underdiscussed parts of our turnaround was that we started putting Smart and Horford and these other guys in positions to succeed, rather than trying to pigeonhole them into roles they aren't well-suited to.  Tatum is quietly turning into a f***ing problem off the ball, and that wreaks all kinds of havoc on defenses that even our lesser players are able to take advantage of.

Of course, the part that I'm leaving out is that Luka's best teammates are Jalen Brunson and Spencer Dinwiddie.  Perhaps he's perfectly willing to share responsibility and the other Mavs just aren't talented enough to deliver consistently enough, so he tries to do it himself.  It's hard to tell the difference from a distance.

Yeah, I think it's a rational decision based upon an evaluation of the ability of his teammates. The guys that surround him are incredibly inconsistent and streaky.

He didn't really pass to Porzingas either when Porzingas was there

Kristaps' FGA per game was highest in Dallas, compared to New York or Washington. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment.

Kristaps was also only a part-time teammate with how often he was in rehab, so I'm not sure how much chemistry could actually be built. I think the terrible level of play Kristaps dished up in the playoffs last season was the nail in the coffin

I'm just basing this on media reports.

Could very well be that Porzingas was damaged goods as you suggested - in that case maybe the Mavs made a huge mistake getting Porzingas in the first place.

I think they did (although the price they gave up for him was quite minimal). I think they got caught up in the idea of the next Dirk or whatever. The ideal pairing for Doncic is a Jrue Holiday type in my opinion

[Moranis]

Regarding Doncic here:  am I the only one who thinks he tries to do too much by himself?  He's a hell of a scorer and a very good facilitator.  But man, you have to trust your teammates with responsibilities.  Let them do things, let them be engaged.  There's a time for Doncic to take over and run the show.  That time isn't "all 48 minutes of the game."   

One of the things that I've harped on over the last couple of months is that making teammates better isn't just about putting more assists in the box score.  Not every roleplayer is meant to be turned into a catch-and-shoot statue on the perimeter, but that doesn't mean you can't help them maximize the skills they do have.  Imagine if the Warriors just stuck Draymond in the corner every possession while Curry dribbled the air out of the ball.  That would be a huge waste of Draymond's abilities, right?  I feel like one of the underdiscussed parts of our turnaround was that we started putting Smart and Horford and these other guys in positions to succeed, rather than trying to pigeonhole them into roles they aren't well-suited to.  Tatum is quietly turning into a f***ing problem off the ball, and that wreaks all kinds of havoc on defenses that even our lesser players are able to take advantage of.

Of course, the part that I'm leaving out is that Luka's best teammates are Jalen Brunson and Spencer Dinwiddie.  Perhaps he's perfectly willing to share responsibility and the other Mavs just aren't talented enough to deliver consistently enough, so he tries to do it himself.  It's hard to tell the difference from a distance.

Yeah, I think it's a rational decision based upon an evaluation of the ability of his teammates. The guys that surround him are incredibly inconsistent and streaky.

He didn't really pass to Porzingas either when Porzingas was there

Kristaps' FGA per game was highest in Dallas, compared to New York or Washington. I'm not sure I agree with your assessment.

Kristaps was also only a part-time teammate with how often he was in rehab, so I'm not sure how much chemistry could actually be built. I think the terrible level of play Kristaps dished up in the playoffs last season was the nail in the coffin

Sure if you count his rookie year his FGA in NY were lower than Dallas, but his last year in NY he was at 18.5 FGA per game which was by far the most in his career.  And his 2PT attempts were significantly higher in NY with way more 3PT attempts in Dallas.  He was basically regulated much more to a spot up shooter in Dallas than anywhere else, which lost a lot of his effectiveness.  He just wasn't a good fit stylistically with Luka.  He was still a 20 ppg scorer though and those have a lot of value (and in Washington his 2PT attempts were up and his 3PT attempts were down and he had his best scoring stint since NY as a result).  The Zinger has a hard time staying healthy, but I do think in the right situation he can still be an all star level player, that just wasn't with Luka. 

He definitely needs a 3 and D guard next to him.  As you say, a Jrue Holiday type would be fantastic.  I think Brunson works with him offensively, but I'm not sure he will be a good enough defender, though they could make that up with the other small guy on the floor.  If they had someone like Smart or Jaylen along with Luka and Brunson they'd do quite well I think. 

[pokeKingCurtis]

Maybe WAS is a good fit for Zingas. Some of those box scores towards the end of WAS's season looked pretty good. Just 4-5 good scorers (Kuzma, Beal, KCP, and Zingas).

The East getting even tougher aside, love me some parity.