2019 Historical: How Does My Team Look Thread

[Roy H.]

Just an outside observers opinion, but there is no way I would ever take Jason Kidd ahead of Gary Payton. That just seems absurd to me.

If there are basketball writers out there saying otherwise, they're stupid.

As a person, maybe. (Edit: Or not. Payton allegedly battered a woman as well.)

As a player, Kidd was just better.  He was widely thought to be better at the time, too, which is why he was All-NBA first team five times, compared to twice for Payton.

Neither of them were/are great people.

But Payton was absolutely the better overall player. Better defender, better scorer, easier to build a team around. Kidd was great, but his poor shooting was a glaring weakness that hurt his team's at times. Payton was just an all-around player with no real weaknesses. Much harder player to game plan against offensively, and infinitely more valuable on the defensive side of the ball (maybe the single best defensive PG ever).

I suppose there is an argument to be made that in a draft like this a Pass first PG might be more valuable than a scoring guard, but in terms of 'regular' roster building, I'm taking the guy who could do it all over the guy who is more easily game planned against and weaker defender.

Kidd was only slightly lesser as a defender, if at all. He was also a vastly better passer and rebounder, and he was quite a bit better as an outside shooter, too.

At his peak, what weakness do you see for Kidd?

Look at his 1999 season: 16.9 points, 10.8 assists, 6.8 rebounds, 36.6 3PT%, All-NBA (first team), All-Defense (first team)

Plus, he won games. Three Finals appearances, one ring.

[Who]

So to stop Steph from getting abused by Drexler (presumably - good post player but worse than Magic or Worthy), the Lakers would have double team constantly. KG and Cowens are quick and mobile on doubles. Drexler is a gifted passer. Portland would lack for outside shooting with Drexler on the interior but they have guys who can drive and finish (or pass) well inside.

On the other end, Drexler would be the one that would have to defend Steph. I don't think there is any way Drexler can keep up with Steph off the ball when Steph is running him through screens. Steph covers more ground off the ball than any other PG in the league. But then Steph is still taking outside shots vs more inside shots. Or forcing switches and having to go one-on-one.

Strange matchups in a Portland vs Lakers series. Magic used to have Byron Scott or Michael Cooper next to him to defend PGs. He doesn't have that in Portland. But he does have a much more potent offensive threat next to him in Drexler who can punish smaller guards much better than Scott or Cooper could.

[Somebody]

So to stop Steph from getting abused by Drexler (presumably - good post player but worse than Magic or Worthy), the Lakers would have double team constantly. KG and Cowens are quick and mobile on doubles. Drexler is a gifted passer. Portland would lack for outside shooting with Drexler on the interior but they have guys who can drive and finish (or pass) well inside.

On the other end, Drexler would be the one that would have to defend Steph. I don't think there is any way Drexler can keep up with Steph off the ball when Steph is running him through screens. Steph covers more ground off the ball than any other PG in the league. But then Steph is still taking outside shots vs more inside shots. Or forcing switches and having to go one-on-one.

Strange matchups in a Portland vs Lakers series. Magic used to have Byron Scott or Michael Cooper next to him to defend PGs. He doesn't have that in Portland. But he does have a much more potent offensive threat next to him in Drexler who can punish smaller guards much better than Scott or Cooper could.

I'd probably start getting KG/Cowens/Erving/McGrady to take the ball to the hole if Steph starts attracting defenders with his gravity from his three point shot. All of those 4 can really drive to the rim for their position with their speed/size/strength/skill, and I think it'd expose Portland's relative lack of rim protection in their starting lineup.

[Silky]

Just an outside observers opinion, but there is no way I would ever take Jason Kidd ahead of Gary Payton. That just seems absurd to me.

If there are basketball writers out there saying otherwise, they're stupid.

As a person, maybe. (Edit: Or not. Payton allegedly battered a woman as well.)

As a player, Kidd was just better.  He was widely thought to be better at the time, too, which is why he was All-NBA first team five times, compared to twice for Payton.

Know who puts up even better stats than Kidd, Westbrook.
Kidd was a stat padder and didnt have the on game impact that Payton had.

And by the way, in the year chosen, Kidd was all nba and all nba defensive 2nd.

Payton in the year chosen was all nba defense 1st, DPOY and an all nba 2nd.

So looking at awards, Payton was better than Kidd in this exercise.

This is laughable.

Go back & watch the '02 Eastern Conference Finals against BOS as one example.

Larger picture-wise & the debate at hand, Payton v. Kidd is a viable debate.  Might come down to how people value defense but I really can't find fault for choosing either side.  It's pretty darn close.

02 ECFs are not the season chosen.

You talked about Kidd being a stat padder & his game impact.

I illustrated one example.  Keep doubling down on your nonsense & throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, though.

Want to cherry pick somethibg go rewatch sonic bulls finals amd look at impact gary had.

Kidd stat padded.
Payton had more impact.

Not throwing anything at wall but truth homie

And this has always been about single seasons on my end. You want to bring careers into it.

[Silky]

That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

Literally the first result on google for best PGs of all-time:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

lol.

trash list

Any list that puts Kidd above Payton is a terrible list.
Any list that puts Kidd above Walt is just not even worth looking at.

Every single list on the first page of google’s search results has Kidd ranked higher.

The hyperbolic schtick is actually hurting your team, because nobody takes your ability to evaluate players seriously. Nobody else is throwing out wild statements and completely disrespecting other teams.

I've used ESPN a lot in this.  They have Kidd at 35 and Payton at 41.  Same general range, not much difference, but with Kidd the slight edge.  That seems right to me.

Taking entire career into consideration, sure, but this game is to take a season.

Remember this?

Payton is better. That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

You’ve killed your credibility.  Goukii was willing to concede it was a draw, and you chose to act the fool instead.  I don’t think that’s helpful.

Full disclosure, I ranked your team in the bottom quadrant. I wish your had spent more time talking about how Kobe can be more efficient in this exercise, rather than some of the hyperbole.

^this tbh. I would've ranked your team quite a bit higher if you spent more time convincing me how your pieces would fit, and how your two ball dominant superstars would scale back their offenses while maintaining their offensive value.
FYI your team was ranked near the middle in my rankings, I still rate your team.

I shouldnt have to convince people that Koibe and Hakeem are great basketball players, 2 top 15 guys EASILY, that are capable of playing with others.

That seems a waste of time and a foolish thing to do.

Kobe had a 24 assist rate that year, Bird had a career average of 23.7.
But somehow Bird was a great teammate and a willing passer but Kobe was a selfish ballhog.

You cannot debate against pre-conceived notions.

That's where the eye test comes in. Bird played a relatively "off-ball" game compared to other offensive megastars, which assist % can't really quantify. And you should try and explain why both of them can mesh, they have very ball dominant games in the sense that they need to hold the ball for a long time to do their thing on offense.

+

And McGrady, Gilmore, erving, Garnett, Goodrich, Marion and Brand dont?


Kobe's and Hakeems time per possession was just behind that of Lebron and Jordan.

Why dont those teams have to justify those players fit?

Gilmore, KG, Goodrich and Marion are ball dominant players? I absolutely agree that McGrady, Erving and Brand need the ball to be effective, but the other 4 being ball dominant is quite laughable imo. And maybe because those teams actually have players who fit nicely with them? If they don't they're penalised in my rankings, iirc one of them was ranked in your range.

Yeah. Gilmore and kg were.

Any player that utilizes post ups in their game have a longer time per possession.

That is pretty basic

[Who]

Matchups become more traditional when Portland has to go to it's bench and play Tony Parker or Dennis Johnson (or Alvin Robertson) at guard.

Easier for Steph or Nash to defend.

[nickagneta]

As long as we are discussing a matchup of possible Western powers, what do people think about a possible Atlanta vs Philadelphia battle in the East?

[Somebody]

That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

Literally the first result on google for best PGs of all-time:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

lol.

trash list

Any list that puts Kidd above Payton is a terrible list.
Any list that puts Kidd above Walt is just not even worth looking at.

Every single list on the first page of google’s search results has Kidd ranked higher.

The hyperbolic schtick is actually hurting your team, because nobody takes your ability to evaluate players seriously. Nobody else is throwing out wild statements and completely disrespecting other teams.

I've used ESPN a lot in this.  They have Kidd at 35 and Payton at 41.  Same general range, not much difference, but with Kidd the slight edge.  That seems right to me.

Taking entire career into consideration, sure, but this game is to take a season.

Remember this?

Payton is better. That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

You’ve killed your credibility.  Goukii was willing to concede it was a draw, and you chose to act the fool instead.  I don’t think that’s helpful.

Full disclosure, I ranked your team in the bottom quadrant. I wish your had spent more time talking about how Kobe can be more efficient in this exercise, rather than some of the hyperbole.

^this tbh. I would've ranked your team quite a bit higher if you spent more time convincing me how your pieces would fit, and how your two ball dominant superstars would scale back their offenses while maintaining their offensive value.
FYI your team was ranked near the middle in my rankings, I still rate your team.

I shouldnt have to convince people that Koibe and Hakeem are great basketball players, 2 top 15 guys EASILY, that are capable of playing with others.

That seems a waste of time and a foolish thing to do.

Kobe had a 24 assist rate that year, Bird had a career average of 23.7.
But somehow Bird was a great teammate and a willing passer but Kobe was a selfish ballhog.

You cannot debate against pre-conceived notions.

That's where the eye test comes in. Bird played a relatively "off-ball" game compared to other offensive megastars, which assist % can't really quantify. And you should try and explain why both of them can mesh, they have very ball dominant games in the sense that they need to hold the ball for a long time to do their thing on offense.

+

And McGrady, Gilmore, erving, Garnett, Goodrich, Marion and Brand dont?


Kobe's and Hakeems time per possession was just behind that of Lebron and Jordan.

Why dont those teams have to justify those players fit?

Gilmore, KG, Goodrich and Marion are ball dominant players? I absolutely agree that McGrady, Erving and Brand need the ball to be effective, but the other 4 being ball dominant is quite laughable imo. And maybe because those teams actually have players who fit nicely with them? If they don't they're penalised in my rankings, iirc one of them was ranked in your range.

Yeah. Gilmore and kg were.

Any player that utilizes post ups in their game have a longer time per possession.

That is pretty basic

Both weren't post up heavy players though when they were paired with good teammates, especially Gilmore, who was criticised for passing up easy looks as he was such a willing (but mediocre) passer-it's why he had such a high FG%, he only took very high efficiency shots. You're grasping at straws here, both players were very scalable offensively either due to their shot selection (Gilmore) or ability to stretch the floor and play like an oversized point forward (Garnett).

[Somebody]

As long as we are discussing a matchup of possible Western powers, what do people think about a possible Atlanta vs Philadelphia battle in the East?

I think Philadelphia wins out just because of how demanding it is to cover for Dirk. I just don't see Atlanta being able to cover for him with help defense when Philly has 4 guys who're threats to catch fire on offense. Atlanta can start Sampson to solve this, but they'll lose Dirk's offense.

[action781]

Can you imagine LAL playing Draymond Green at guard alongside T-Mac to defend Magic ... and have T-Mac and Draymond share ball-handling duties. That would be a crazy lineup.

I was watching an old all star game and one point the coach put Julius Erving and George Gervin at guard. Had them run the offense. I forget who was next to them. I think it was 1 PF and 2 Cs. Huge lineup.

Not saying LAL should do this. Just fun to think about.

G: Magic vs Draymond
G: Drexler vs T-Mac
F: Worthy vs Erving
F: Barkley vs KG
C: Moses vs Cowens

That would be a nasty defensive team. Draymond on Magic with KG and Cowens behind him. Imagine the defensive versatility on help defense & switches.

Curry & Nash drive LAL's offense though, IMO.  I think their offense would be on the stale side if they ran this lineup.  T-Mac and Dr J were iso scorers.  T-Mac didn't move without the ball.  Draymond is a great passer, but in part because he has two teammates who are amazing at moving without the ball.  He's not really a "creator".  LAL could probably get away with this lineup offensively against Portland since that Portland lineup isn't great defensively, but I think their offense would suffer too much.

I think Utah could run a better defensive lineup against Portland (with better offense) in:

Jordan on Magic
Klay/Dumars on Drexler
Iggy on Worthy
Rodman on Barkley
Walton on Moses

Edit: Iguodala would be a pretty nice matchup on Magic too I just realized.

[Donoghus]

Just an outside observers opinion, but there is no way I would ever take Jason Kidd ahead of Gary Payton. That just seems absurd to me.

If there are basketball writers out there saying otherwise, they're stupid.

As a person, maybe. (Edit: Or not. Payton allegedly battered a woman as well.)

As a player, Kidd was just better.  He was widely thought to be better at the time, too, which is why he was All-NBA first team five times, compared to twice for Payton.

Know who puts up even better stats than Kidd, Westbrook.
Kidd was a stat padder and didnt have the on game impact that Payton had.

And by the way, in the year chosen, Kidd was all nba and all nba defensive 2nd.

Payton in the year chosen was all nba defense 1st, DPOY and an all nba 2nd.

So looking at awards, Payton was better than Kidd in this exercise.

This is laughable.

Go back & watch the '02 Eastern Conference Finals against BOS as one example.

Larger picture-wise & the debate at hand, Payton v. Kidd is a viable debate.  Might come down to how people value defense but I really can't find fault for choosing either side.  It's pretty darn close.

02 ECFs are not the season chosen.

You talked about Kidd being a stat padder & his game impact.

I illustrated one example.  Keep doubling down on your nonsense & throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, though.

Want to cherry pick somethibg go rewatch sonic bulls finals amd look at impact gary had.

Kidd stat padded.
Payton had more impact.

Not throwing anything at wall but truth homie

And this has always been about single seasons on my end. You want to bring careers into it.

Here's the thing that you're struggling to grasp with here;  I'm not crapping on Payton.  At all.  I haven't trashed Payton in this thread outside of daring to say that peak Penny was better than him, IMO. 

It was refuting your claim about Kidd being a stat padder & diminishing his impact on the game.  The guy carried a team to back to back NBA Finals appearances as the alpha.    You're questioning traits here that certainly don't seem to ring true then get all defensive about it.    Yes, this is about single season but you look at the traits of the guys involved.   You think the Jason Kidd of '02-03 was stat padding & didn't have a decisive direct games? He seemed to have thrashed Boston and led his team to the Finals that year. 

[Silky]

That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

Literally the first result on google for best PGs of all-time:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

lol.

trash list

Any list that puts Kidd above Payton is a terrible list.
Any list that puts Kidd above Walt is just not even worth looking at.

Every single list on the first page of google’s search results has Kidd ranked higher.

The hyperbolic schtick is actually hurting your team, because nobody takes your ability to evaluate players seriously. Nobody else is throwing out wild statements and completely disrespecting other teams.

I've used ESPN a lot in this.  They have Kidd at 35 and Payton at 41.  Same general range, not much difference, but with Kidd the slight edge.  That seems right to me.

Taking entire career into consideration, sure, but this game is to take a season.

Remember this?

Payton is better. That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

You’ve killed your credibility.  Goukii was willing to concede it was a draw, and you chose to act the fool instead.  I don’t think that’s helpful.

Full disclosure, I ranked your team in the bottom quadrant. I wish your had spent more time talking about how Kobe can be more efficient in this exercise, rather than some of the hyperbole.

^this tbh. I would've ranked your team quite a bit higher if you spent more time convincing me how your pieces would fit, and how your two ball dominant superstars would scale back their offenses while maintaining their offensive value.
FYI your team was ranked near the middle in my rankings, I still rate your team.

I shouldnt have to convince people that Koibe and Hakeem are great basketball players, 2 top 15 guys EASILY, that are capable of playing with others.

That seems a waste of time and a foolish thing to do.

Kobe had a 24 assist rate that year, Bird had a career average of 23.7.
But somehow Bird was a great teammate and a willing passer but Kobe was a selfish ballhog.

You cannot debate against pre-conceived notions.

That's where the eye test comes in. Bird played a relatively "off-ball" game compared to other offensive megastars, which assist % can't really quantify. And you should try and explain why both of them can mesh, they have very ball dominant games in the sense that they need to hold the ball for a long time to do their thing on offense.

+

And McGrady, Gilmore, erving, Garnett, Goodrich, Marion and Brand dont?


Kobe's and Hakeems time per possession was just behind that of Lebron and Jordan.

Why dont those teams have to justify those players fit?

Gilmore, KG, Goodrich and Marion are ball dominant players? I absolutely agree that McGrady, Erving and Brand need the ball to be effective, but the other 4 being ball dominant is quite laughable imo. And maybe because those teams actually have players who fit nicely with them? If they don't they're penalised in my rankings, iirc one of them was ranked in your range.

Yeah. Gilmore and kg were.

Any player that utilizes post ups in their game have a longer time per possession.

That is pretty basic

Both weren't post up heavy players though when they were paired with good teammates, especially Gilmore, who was criticised for passing up easy looks as he was such a willing (but mediocre) passer-it's why he had such a high FG%, he only took very high efficiency shots. You're grasping at straws here, both players were very scalable offensively either due to their shot selection (Gilmore) or ability to stretch the floor and play like an oversized point forward (Garnett).

sigh

Steph Curry 2015-2016 - 32.6
Tracy McGrady 2002-2003 - 35.2
Julius Erving 1975-1976 - 29
Kevin Garnett 2003-2004) - 29.6
Dave Cowens 1975-1976 - No data

Usage for starters - 126.4 (not including Cowens)


Gary Payton 1995-96 - 24.4
Kobe Bryant 2007-08 - 31.4
Bob Dandridge 1972-73 - (career 23)
Dave Debusscherre 1967-68 no stats
Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94 - 31.7

Starters Usage 110.5 (Not Including Dave)


Usage is the easiest metric to use to show time of possessions over multiple years.

SO my lineup has less issue than yours

[Somebody]

That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

Literally the first result on google for best PGs of all-time:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

lol.

trash list

Any list that puts Kidd above Payton is a terrible list.
Any list that puts Kidd above Walt is just not even worth looking at.

Every single list on the first page of google’s search results has Kidd ranked higher.

The hyperbolic schtick is actually hurting your team, because nobody takes your ability to evaluate players seriously. Nobody else is throwing out wild statements and completely disrespecting other teams.

I've used ESPN a lot in this.  They have Kidd at 35 and Payton at 41.  Same general range, not much difference, but with Kidd the slight edge.  That seems right to me.

Taking entire career into consideration, sure, but this game is to take a season.

Remember this?

Payton is better. That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

You’ve killed your credibility.  Goukii was willing to concede it was a draw, and you chose to act the fool instead.  I don’t think that’s helpful.

Full disclosure, I ranked your team in the bottom quadrant. I wish your had spent more time talking about how Kobe can be more efficient in this exercise, rather than some of the hyperbole.

^this tbh. I would've ranked your team quite a bit higher if you spent more time convincing me how your pieces would fit, and how your two ball dominant superstars would scale back their offenses while maintaining their offensive value.
FYI your team was ranked near the middle in my rankings, I still rate your team.

I shouldnt have to convince people that Koibe and Hakeem are great basketball players, 2 top 15 guys EASILY, that are capable of playing with others.

That seems a waste of time and a foolish thing to do.

Kobe had a 24 assist rate that year, Bird had a career average of 23.7.
But somehow Bird was a great teammate and a willing passer but Kobe was a selfish ballhog.

You cannot debate against pre-conceived notions.

That's where the eye test comes in. Bird played a relatively "off-ball" game compared to other offensive megastars, which assist % can't really quantify. And you should try and explain why both of them can mesh, they have very ball dominant games in the sense that they need to hold the ball for a long time to do their thing on offense.

+

And McGrady, Gilmore, erving, Garnett, Goodrich, Marion and Brand dont?


Kobe's and Hakeems time per possession was just behind that of Lebron and Jordan.

Why dont those teams have to justify those players fit?

Gilmore, KG, Goodrich and Marion are ball dominant players? I absolutely agree that McGrady, Erving and Brand need the ball to be effective, but the other 4 being ball dominant is quite laughable imo. And maybe because those teams actually have players who fit nicely with them? If they don't they're penalised in my rankings, iirc one of them was ranked in your range.

Yeah. Gilmore and kg were.

Any player that utilizes post ups in their game have a longer time per possession.

That is pretty basic

Both weren't post up heavy players though when they were paired with good teammates, especially Gilmore, who was criticised for passing up easy looks as he was such a willing (but mediocre) passer-it's why he had such a high FG%, he only took very high efficiency shots. You're grasping at straws here, both players were very scalable offensively either due to their shot selection (Gilmore) or ability to stretch the floor and play like an oversized point forward (Garnett).

sigh

Steph Curry 2015-2016 - 32.6
Tracy McGrady 2002-2003 - 35.2
Julius Erving 1975-1976 - 29
Kevin Garnett 2003-2004) - 29.6
Dave Cowens 1975-1976 - No data

Usage for starters - 126.4 (not including Cowens)


Gary Payton 1995-96 - 24.4
Kobe Bryant 2007-08 - 31.4
Bob Dandridge 1972-73 - (career 23)
Dave Debusscherre 1967-68 no stats
Hakeem Olajuwon 1993-94 - 31.7

Starters Usage 110.5 (Not Including Dave)


Usage is the easiest metric to use to show time of possessions over multiple years.

SO my lineup has less issue than yours

Throwing out another very flawed stat lol, usage rate measures shot attempts than the actual amount of time a player holds the ball. Curry, Garnett and the Doctor weren't shot clock eaters the way Kobe and Hakeem were, the only guy on my team who's actually more ball dominant than shot dominant is McGrady.

[Moranis]

So to stop Steph from getting abused by Drexler (presumably - good post player but worse than Magic or Worthy), the Lakers would have double team constantly. KG and Cowens are quick and mobile on doubles. Drexler is a gifted passer. Portland would lack for outside shooting with Drexler on the interior but they have guys who can drive and finish (or pass) well inside.

On the other end, Drexler would be the one that would have to defend Steph. I don't think there is any way Drexler can keep up with Steph off the ball when Steph is running him through screens. Steph covers more ground off the ball than any other PG in the league. But then Steph is still taking outside shots vs more inside shots. Or forcing switches and having to go one-on-one.

Strange matchups in a Portland vs Lakers series. Magic used to have Byron Scott or Michael Cooper next to him to defend PGs. He doesn't have that in Portland. But he does have a much more potent offensive threat next to him in Drexler who can punish smaller guards much better than Scott or Cooper could.

Steph is small and tires easily when he is guarded physically or made to work defensively.  If you look at the 2 series against the Cavs before Durant and against the Raptors this year, Curry wasn't very effective at all.  He was brutalized physically and just wore down in those series.  His all time great outside shooting became average.  His 2 point % was also much worse.  Now I get that his teammates are much better in this exercise, but his opponents are also much better. I think Curry is one of the players that will suffer the most in this just given his very small frame and body.  I don't think his shooting really holds up under the physical strain and without the shooting Curry's value is significantly diminished. 

[Somebody]

So to stop Steph from getting abused by Drexler (presumably - good post player but worse than Magic or Worthy), the Lakers would have double team constantly. KG and Cowens are quick and mobile on doubles. Drexler is a gifted passer. Portland would lack for outside shooting with Drexler on the interior but they have guys who can drive and finish (or pass) well inside.

On the other end, Drexler would be the one that would have to defend Steph. I don't think there is any way Drexler can keep up with Steph off the ball when Steph is running him through screens. Steph covers more ground off the ball than any other PG in the league. But then Steph is still taking outside shots vs more inside shots. Or forcing switches and having to go one-on-one.

Strange matchups in a Portland vs Lakers series. Magic used to have Byron Scott or Michael Cooper next to him to defend PGs. He doesn't have that in Portland. But he does have a much more potent offensive threat next to him in Drexler who can punish smaller guards much better than Scott or Cooper could.

Steph is small and tires easily when he is guarded physically or made to work defensively.  If you look at the 2 series against the Cavs before Durant and against the Raptors this year, Curry wasn't very effective at all.  He was brutalized physically and just wore down in those series.  His all time great outside shooting became average.  His 2 point % was also much worse.  Now I get that his teammates are much better in this exercise, but his opponents are also much better. I think Curry is one of the players that will suffer the most in this just given his very small frame and body.  I don't think his shooting really holds up under the physical strain and without the shooting Curry's value is significantly diminished.

Steph struggles when defenses are geared to stop him and surround him with big bodies, which was what happened in the early Cavs series and this year's finals against Toronto. I do think that he'd be up against a man defense against most teams in this due to the teammates surrounding that demand defensive attention, as you really can't leave them to double on Steph like how the Cavs and Raptors did.