2019 Historical: How Does My Team Look Thread

[Silky]

That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

Literally the first result on google for best PGs of all-time:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

lol.

trash list

Any list that puts Kidd above Payton is a terrible list.
Any list that puts Kidd above Walt is just not even worth looking at.

Every single list on the first page of google’s search results has Kidd ranked higher.

The hyperbolic schtick is actually hurting your team, because nobody takes your ability to evaluate players seriously. Nobody else is throwing out wild statements and completely disrespecting other teams.

I've used ESPN a lot in this.  They have Kidd at 35 and Payton at 41.  Same general range, not much difference, but with Kidd the slight edge.  That seems right to me.

Taking entire career into consideration, sure, but this game is to take a season.

Remember this?

Payton is better. That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

You’ve killed your credibility.  Goukii was willing to concede it was a draw, and you chose to act the fool instead.  I don’t think that’s helpful.

Full disclosure, I ranked your team in the bottom quadrant. I wish your had spent more time talking about how Kobe can be more efficient in this exercise, rather than some of the hyperbole.

^this tbh. I would've ranked your team quite a bit higher if you spent more time convincing me how your pieces would fit, and how your two ball dominant superstars would scale back their offenses while maintaining their offensive value.
FYI your team was ranked near the middle in my rankings, I still rate your team.

I shouldnt have to convince people that Koibe and Hakeem are great basketball players, 2 top 15 guys EASILY, that are capable of playing with others.

That seems a waste of time and a foolish thing to do.

Kobe had a 24 assist rate that year, Bird had a career average of 23.7.
But somehow Bird was a great teammate and a willing passer but Kobe was a selfish ballhog.

You cannot debate against pre-conceived notions.

That's where the eye test comes in. Bird played a relatively "off-ball" game compared to other offensive megastars, which assist % can't really quantify. And you should try and explain why both of them can mesh, they have very ball dominant games in the sense that they need to hold the ball for a long time to do their thing on offense.

+

And McGrady, Gilmore, erving, Garnett, Goodrich, Marion and Brand dont?


Kobe's and Hakeems time per possession was just behind that of Lebron and Jordan.

Why dont those teams have to justify those players fit?

[Somebody]

I do like Golden State if David Thompson was starting

PG: Isiah Thomas
SG: David Thompson
SF: Kevin Durant
PF: Giannis Antetokounmpo
 C: Bill Russell

That is a pretty convincing team. A threatening team.

Sticking to Bruce Bowen in the starting lineup is making it hard for me to give the Warriors a high ranking.

Agreed, although I'd rather start Harden a PG. His ball dominance wouldn't be an awkward fit on this team due to how scalable Durant and Russell are, and he'd add an incredible scoring punch to the starting lineup.

[Silky]

Just an outside observers opinion, but there is no way I would ever take Jason Kidd ahead of Gary Payton. That just seems absurd to me.

If there are basketball writers out there saying otherwise, they're stupid.

As a person, maybe. (Edit: Or not. Payton allegedly battered a woman as well.)

As a player, Kidd was just better.  He was widely thought to be better at the time, too, which is why he was All-NBA first team five times, compared to twice for Payton.

Know who puts up even better stats than Kidd, Westbrook.
Kidd was a stat padder and didnt have the on game impact that Payton had.

And by the way, in the year chosen, Kidd was all nba and all nba defensive 2nd.

Payton in the year chosen was all nba defense 1st, DPOY and an all nba 2nd.

So looking at awards, Payton was better than Kidd in this exercise.

This is laughable.

Go back & watch the '02 Eastern Conference Finals against BOS as one example.

Larger picture-wise & the debate at hand, Payton v. Kidd is a viable debate.  Might come down to how people value defense but I really can't find fault for choosing either side.  It's pretty darn close.

02 ECFs are not the season chosen.

[nickagneta]

I think Kidd and Payton were about even in regards to their games. I would probably put Kidd ahead of Payton based only on the fact I think Kidd was a smarter basketball player and made others around him better in ways Payton didn't.

[Roy H.]

Lakers vs Blazers

Portland has nobody that can guard Steph Curry.
LA has nobody that Steph Curry can guard.

Yeah, these were my top two Western teams. I gave a slight Edge to Portland because I like their fit a small bit more, but both are excellent.

[Who]

Can you imagine LAL playing Draymond Green at guard alongside T-Mac to defend Magic ... and have T-Mac and Draymond share ball-handling duties. That would be a crazy lineup.

I was watching an old all star game and one point the coach put Julius Erving and George Gervin at guard. Had them run the offense. I forget who was next to them. I think it was 1 PF and 2 Cs. Huge lineup.

Not saying LAL should do this. Just fun to think about.

G: Magic vs Draymond
G: Drexler vs T-Mac
F: Worthy vs Erving
F: Barkley vs KG
C: Moses vs Cowens

That would be a nasty defensive team. Draymond on Magic with KG and Cowens behind him. Imagine the defensive versatility on help defense & switches.

[Donoghus]

Just an outside observers opinion, but there is no way I would ever take Jason Kidd ahead of Gary Payton. That just seems absurd to me.

If there are basketball writers out there saying otherwise, they're stupid.

As a person, maybe. (Edit: Or not. Payton allegedly battered a woman as well.)

As a player, Kidd was just better.  He was widely thought to be better at the time, too, which is why he was All-NBA first team five times, compared to twice for Payton.

Know who puts up even better stats than Kidd, Westbrook.
Kidd was a stat padder and didnt have the on game impact that Payton had.

And by the way, in the year chosen, Kidd was all nba and all nba defensive 2nd.

Payton in the year chosen was all nba defense 1st, DPOY and an all nba 2nd.

So looking at awards, Payton was better than Kidd in this exercise.

This is laughable.

Go back & watch the '02 Eastern Conference Finals against BOS as one example.

Larger picture-wise & the debate at hand, Payton v. Kidd is a viable debate.  Might come down to how people value defense but I really can't find fault for choosing either side.  It's pretty darn close.

02 ECFs are not the season chosen.

You talked about Kidd being a stat padder & his game impact.

I illustrated one example.  Keep doubling down on your nonsense & throwing stuff at a wall to see what sticks, though.

[Somebody]

That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

Literally the first result on google for best PGs of all-time:

https://www.espn.com/nba/story/_/page/nbarankPGs/ranking-top-10-point-guards-ever

lol.

trash list

Any list that puts Kidd above Payton is a terrible list.
Any list that puts Kidd above Walt is just not even worth looking at.

Every single list on the first page of google’s search results has Kidd ranked higher.

The hyperbolic schtick is actually hurting your team, because nobody takes your ability to evaluate players seriously. Nobody else is throwing out wild statements and completely disrespecting other teams.

I've used ESPN a lot in this.  They have Kidd at 35 and Payton at 41.  Same general range, not much difference, but with Kidd the slight edge.  That seems right to me.

Taking entire career into consideration, sure, but this game is to take a season.

Remember this?

Payton is better. That is why every ranking of point guards ever made has Payton above Kidd.

You’ve killed your credibility.  Goukii was willing to concede it was a draw, and you chose to act the fool instead.  I don’t think that’s helpful.

Full disclosure, I ranked your team in the bottom quadrant. I wish your had spent more time talking about how Kobe can be more efficient in this exercise, rather than some of the hyperbole.

^this tbh. I would've ranked your team quite a bit higher if you spent more time convincing me how your pieces would fit, and how your two ball dominant superstars would scale back their offenses while maintaining their offensive value.
FYI your team was ranked near the middle in my rankings, I still rate your team.

I shouldnt have to convince people that Koibe and Hakeem are great basketball players, 2 top 15 guys EASILY, that are capable of playing with others.

That seems a waste of time and a foolish thing to do.

Kobe had a 24 assist rate that year, Bird had a career average of 23.7.
But somehow Bird was a great teammate and a willing passer but Kobe was a selfish ballhog.

You cannot debate against pre-conceived notions.

That's where the eye test comes in. Bird played a relatively "off-ball" game compared to other offensive megastars, which assist % can't really quantify. And you should try and explain why both of them can mesh, they have very ball dominant games in the sense that they need to hold the ball for a long time to do their thing on offense.

+

And McGrady, Gilmore, erving, Garnett, Goodrich, Marion and Brand dont?


Kobe's and Hakeems time per possession was just behind that of Lebron and Jordan.

Why dont those teams have to justify those players fit?

Gilmore, KG, Goodrich and Marion are ball dominant players? I absolutely agree that McGrady, Erving and Brand need the ball to be effective, but the other 4 being ball dominant is quite laughable imo. And maybe because those teams actually have players who fit nicely with them? If they don't they're penalised in my rankings, iirc one of them was ranked in your range.

[Somebody]

Can you imagine LAL playing Draymond Green at guard alongside T-Mac to defend Magic ... and have T-Mac and Draymond share ball-handling duties. That would be a crazy lineup.

I was watching an old all star game and one point the coach put Julius Erving and George Gervin at guard. Had them run the offense. I forget who was next to them. I think it was 1 PF and 2 Cs. Huge lineup.

Not saying LAL should do this. Just fun to think about.

G: Magic vs Draymond
G: Drexler vs T-Mac
F: Worthy vs Erving
F: Barkley vs KG
C: Moses vs Cowens

That would be a nasty defensive team. Draymond on Magic with KG and Cowens behind him. Imagine the defensive versatility on help defense & switches.

That was my idea with Draymond tbh lol, I had Portland in my mind when I drafted him (albeit way too early, and I envisioned him guarding Worthy while playing a crazy zone alongside KG and ABA Erving).

[Roy H.]

Can you imagine LAL playing Draymond Green at guard alongside T-Mac to defend Magic ... and have T-Mac and Draymond share ball-handling duties. That would be a crazy lineup.

I was watching an old all star game and one point the coach put Julius Erving and George Gervin at guard. Had them run the offense. I forget who was next to them. I think it was 1 PF and 2 Cs. Huge lineup.

Not saying LAL should do this. Just fun to think about.

G: Magic vs Draymond
G: Drexler vs T-Mac
F: Worthy vs Erving
F: Barkley vs KG
C: Moses vs Cowens

That would be a nasty defensive team. Draymond on Magic with KG and Cowens behind him. Imagine the defensive versatility on help defense & switches.

I don’t think Draymond could guard Magic or Drexler. In this exercise, I think he’d struggle mightily. He’s not a good finisher offensively, and defensively he primarily thrives due to the current lack of strong + skilled big men.  Historically Golden State has used other players to cover Lebron, because Green isn’t all that capable of slowing him down.

[Somebody]

Lakers vs Blazers

Portland has nobody that can guard Steph Curry.
LA has nobody that Steph Curry can guard.

Yeah, these were my top two Western teams. I gave a slight Edge to Portland because I like their fit a small bit more, but both are excellent.

Yeah that's very reasonable. I was eyeing a guy like Reggie Miller to plug in at SG, but I ended up reaching for TMac and got a less than ideal fit at the wing.

[KGs Knee]

Just an outside observers opinion, but there is no way I would ever take Jason Kidd ahead of Gary Payton. That just seems absurd to me.

If there are basketball writers out there saying otherwise, they're stupid.

As a person, maybe. (Edit: Or not. Payton allegedly battered a woman as well.)

As a player, Kidd was just better.  He was widely thought to be better at the time, too, which is why he was All-NBA first team five times, compared to twice for Payton.

Neither of them were/are great people.

But Payton was absolutely the better overall player. Better defender, better scorer, easier to build a team around. Kidd was great, but his poor shooting was a glaring weakness that hurt his team's at times. Payton was just an all-around player with no real weaknesses. Much harder player to game plan against offensively, and infinitely more valuable on the defensive side of the ball (maybe the single best defensive PG ever).

I suppose there is an argument to be made that in a draft like this a Pass first PG might be more valuable than a scoring guard, but in terms of 'regular' roster building, I'm taking the guy who could do it all over the guy who is more easily game planned against and weaker defender.

[Who]

Can you imagine LAL playing Draymond Green at guard alongside T-Mac to defend Magic ... and have T-Mac and Draymond share ball-handling duties. That would be a crazy lineup.

I was watching an old all star game and one point the coach put Julius Erving and George Gervin at guard. Had them run the offense. I forget who was next to them. I think it was 1 PF and 2 Cs. Huge lineup.

Not saying LAL should do this. Just fun to think about.

G: Magic vs Draymond
G: Drexler vs T-Mac
F: Worthy vs Erving
F: Barkley vs KG
C: Moses vs Cowens

That would be a nasty defensive team. Draymond on Magic with KG and Cowens behind him. Imagine the defensive versatility on help defense & switches.

I don’t think Draymond could guard Magic or Drexler. In this exercise, I think he’d struggle mightily. He’s not a good finisher offensively, and defensively he primarily thrives due to the current lack of strong + skilled big men.  Historically Golden State has used other players to cover Lebron, because Green isn’t all that capable of slowing him down.

Magic is a lot slower than LeBron. I think Draymond would do a good job on Magic but offensively it would hurt the Lakers more than it would improve the defense.

Shawn Marion is a guy who would do an even better job on Magic. But he doesn't have the ball-handling of Draymond so the Lakers would have to keep Steph or Nash on the floor.


Edit: Agreed on Drexler. I don't think Draymond could guard Drexler well.

[Somebody]

Can you imagine LAL playing Draymond Green at guard alongside T-Mac to defend Magic ... and have T-Mac and Draymond share ball-handling duties. That would be a crazy lineup.

I was watching an old all star game and one point the coach put Julius Erving and George Gervin at guard. Had them run the offense. I forget who was next to them. I think it was 1 PF and 2 Cs. Huge lineup.

Not saying LAL should do this. Just fun to think about.

G: Magic vs Draymond
G: Drexler vs T-Mac
F: Worthy vs Erving
F: Barkley vs KG
C: Moses vs Cowens

That would be a nasty defensive team. Draymond on Magic with KG and Cowens behind him. Imagine the defensive versatility on help defense & switches.

I don’t think Draymond could guard Magic or Drexler. In this exercise, I think he’d struggle mightily. He’s not a good finisher offensively, and defensively he primarily thrives due to the current lack of strong + skilled big men.  Historically Golden State has used other players to cover Lebron, because Green isn’t all that capable of slowing him down.

Agreed. I do think that he can cover Worthy though, and his finishing was actually pretty decent in 2015-2016 (he hit 3s at a pretty good clip on pretty high volume and was able to hit a variety of floaters and scoop shots). And yeah he's overrated as a "LeBron stopper", he's not quick enough to guard him all that well.

[Somebody]

Can you imagine LAL playing Draymond Green at guard alongside T-Mac to defend Magic ... and have T-Mac and Draymond share ball-handling duties. That would be a crazy lineup.

I was watching an old all star game and one point the coach put Julius Erving and George Gervin at guard. Had them run the offense. I forget who was next to them. I think it was 1 PF and 2 Cs. Huge lineup.

Not saying LAL should do this. Just fun to think about.

G: Magic vs Draymond
G: Drexler vs T-Mac
F: Worthy vs Erving
F: Barkley vs KG
C: Moses vs Cowens

That would be a nasty defensive team. Draymond on Magic with KG and Cowens behind him. Imagine the defensive versatility on help defense & switches.

I don’t think Draymond could guard Magic or Drexler. In this exercise, I think he’d struggle mightily. He’s not a good finisher offensively, and defensively he primarily thrives due to the current lack of strong + skilled big men.  Historically Golden State has used other players to cover Lebron, because Green isn’t all that capable of slowing him down.

Magic is a lot slower than LeBron. I think Draymond would do a good job on Magic but offensively it would hurt the Lakers more than it would improve the defense.

Shawn Marion is a guy who would do an even better job on Magic. But he doesn't have the ball-handling of Draymond so the Lakers would have to keep Steph or Nash on the floor.

I'd rather play Steph and have KG play a crazy zone he was able to do in Minny to help out a bit, and maybe have the Doctor roam around as well since Worthy will be playing a post centric offense, which allows the Doctor a bit of leeway. Not sure who he should guard though, although it'd likely one of Portland's backcourt players who can't exploit him as much (not saying that he won't be exploited, I'm saying he'll guard whoever that can't roast him play after play as much).