Kemba Walker (Kemba to formalize agreement on Sunday, pg 40)

[Fafnir]

Why are we doing this ? Do Danny and Brad not learn from their mistakes ?

I get that Kemba Walker is a much higher character guy than Irving was. I also get that he is team oriented. Great. The problem is his playing style, which was half of the problem with Kyrie. His style clashed with the rest of the team and Coach Steven's system. We do not need another ball-dominant point guard.

Instead, we need a playmaker to feed the strength of this team, our Big 3 Wings, J, J & Hayward. Rather than spending a huge amount of our available money one one player who clashes - on court only this time - with the rest of the team, spend our money on athletic post players who defend and rebound and a knock-down shooter off the bench. Celts are at their best with the players moving and the ball popping.

Did IT4 not work well? Kemba is more similar to him than Kyrie in how he plays.

Yes, Thomas worked well - to a point. I would have loved to keep him as a 6th man on reasonable money, but we were not winning any titles with him as our main guy.

Our offense was elite however with him. And we have other options now to supplement that style of play. Its not like Kemba isn't a killer shooter off the ball, he's great off screens.

We're only winning a title with Kemba/Brown/Tatum/Hayward if Tatum or Brown pop to absolute star level anyways.

[CelticsElite]

https://t.co/2Ct0gQG9Y1


Celtics expected to offer 4 yrs, $141 mill

[SparzWizard]

Why are we doing this ? Do Danny and Brad not learn from their mistakes ?

I get that Kemba Walker is a much higher character guy than Irving was. I also get that he is team oriented. Great. The problem is his playing style, which was half of the problem with Kyrie. His style clashed with the rest of the team and Coach Steven's system. We do not need another ball-dominant point guard.

Instead, we need a playmaker to feed the strength of this team, our Big 3 Wings, J, J & Hayward. Rather than spending a huge amount of our available money one one player who clashes - on court only this time - with the rest of the team, spend our money on athletic post players who defend and rebound and a knock-down shooter off the bench. Celts are at their best with the players moving and the ball popping.

Did IT4 not work well? Kemba is more similar to him than Kyrie in how he plays.

Yes, Thomas worked well - to a point. I would have loved to keep him as a 6th man on reasonable money, but we were not winning any titles with him as our main guy.

Our offense was elite however with him. And we have other options now to supplement that style of play. Its not like Kemba isn't a killer shooter off the ball, he's great off screens.

We're only winning a title with Kemba/Brown/Tatum/Hayward if Tatum or Brown pop to absolute star level anyways.

Remember back in the day when we didn't have any other scorers/go-to players outside of Isaiah Thomas? Teams start shutting him down and it became tough generating offense. At some point, having to rely on Avery Bradley and Jae Crowder were brutal.

[SparzWizard]

https://t.co/2Ct0gQG9Y1


Celtics expected to offer 4 yrs, $141 mill

Gotta have to wait until it's finalized. Hope he does choose #8 if he signs with Boston.

[tazzmaniac]

If we do land Kemba and get a decent center, I think people are going to be very surprised at how much better the Celtics will be than last season.

Assuming the Bucks, Raptors and Sixers bring back their teams from this season, I don't see Kemba and a decent center making the Cs better.  Maybe the regular season will be better but I think reality will hit in the playoffs.  The Utah Hayward really needs to return or at least one of the Jays need to step up a lot to actually make the C's better.

This is a really unlikely scenario though. I think the Bucks will be the most similar, but I do think they lose Lopez who was pretty important for them. They also probably lose Mirotic who matters less. What happens with Brogden? They certainly seem weaker

I have no idea if Leonard stays or goes, but I guess 50% they are taken down a significant peg if he does.

Philly could be anything. It seems like there is a real lot of smoke for Butler leaving. Harris has made a pretty interesting comment about style of play being what he cares about the most. Definitely a chance they are gone.

So much in the air impossible to predict where we end up right now.

Lopez could go to the Lakers but there's a good chance he sticks with the Bucks.  They could get Dedmon or similar to replace him.  I think Brogdon re-signs unless some other team goes brain dead with their offer. Mirotic was a trade deadline acquisition.  He's not a significant loss.  The Bucks can't afford to get cheap with Giannis only having 2 years left on his contract. 

Kawhi's decision determines the Raptors fate.  If the Clips don't get a 2nd star, I think there is a good chance that he re-signs with the Raps on a 1+1. 

The Sixers have a high degree of variability.  However they've said they're willing to spend what it takes to bring back Butler and Harris.  Are either of them going to turn down a 5 yr Max/near-Max offer?  Doubtful. 

As for Harris' style of play comments, they make it sound like the Sixers have a good chance of retaining him. 

When Rooks asked what style of play Harris would prefer, he replied:

"Up and down, spread the floor, kinda like what everybody pictures the modern-day NBA team to be. Let's shoot threes, get downhill, let's get to the free-throw line, because those are the most efficient ways [to score]. But ball movement is the biggest thing. So, that style of play is most fitting for me."

“A great organization," he replied when asked what he's looking for in free agency. "Obviously, winning’s important for me, star players are important, and just putting myself in the right opportunity to continue to improve my game and get better year in and year out."

Both of those quotes fit the Sixers to a T. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryantoporek/2019/06/22/tobias-harris-says-style-of-play-is-top-priority-in-free-agency/#15293bbb7525

[Yoki_IsTheName]

https://t.co/2Ct0gQG9Y1


Celtics expected to offer 4 yrs, $141 mill

FWIW, I love that you quoted a Philippine news website.

Hey, Kemba!

[celticsclay]

If we do land Kemba and get a decent center, I think people are going to be very surprised at how much better the Celtics will be than last season.

Assuming the Bucks, Raptors and Sixers bring back their teams from this season, I don't see Kemba and a decent center making the Cs better.  Maybe the regular season will be better but I think reality will hit in the playoffs.  The Utah Hayward really needs to return or at least one of the Jays need to step up a lot to actually make the C's better.

This is a really unlikely scenario though. I think the Bucks will be the most similar, but I do think they lose Lopez who was pretty important for them. They also probably lose Mirotic who matters less. What happens with Brogden? They certainly seem weaker

I have no idea if Leonard stays or goes, but I guess 50% they are taken down a significant peg if he does.

Philly could be anything. It seems like there is a real lot of smoke for Butler leaving. Harris has made a pretty interesting comment about style of play being what he cares about the most. Definitely a chance they are gone.

So much in the air impossible to predict where we end up right now.

Lopez could go to the Lakers but there's a good chance he sticks with the Bucks.  They could get Dedmon or similar to replace him.  I think Brogdon re-signs unless some other team goes brain dead with their offer. Mirotic was a trade deadline acquisition.  He's not a significant loss.  The Bucks can't afford to get cheap with Giannis only having 2 years left on his contract. 

Kawhi's decision determines the Raptors fate.  If the Clips don't get a 2nd star, I think there is a good chance that he re-signs with the Raps on a 1+1. 

The Sixers have a high degree of variability.  However they've said they're willing to spend what it takes to bring back Butler and Harris.  Are either of them going to turn down a 5 yr Max/near-Max offer?  Doubtful. 

As for Harris' style of play comments, they make it sound like the Sixers have a good chance of retaining him. 

When Rooks asked what style of play Harris would prefer, he replied:

"Up and down, spread the floor, kinda like what everybody pictures the modern-day NBA team to be. Let's shoot threes, get downhill, let's get to the free-throw line, because those are the most efficient ways [to score]. But ball movement is the biggest thing. So, that style of play is most fitting for me."

“A great organization," he replied when asked what he's looking for in free agency. "Obviously, winning’s important for me, star players are important, and just putting myself in the right opportunity to continue to improve my game and get better year in and year out."

Both of those quotes fit the Sixers to a T. 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/bryantoporek/2019/06/22/tobias-harris-says-style-of-play-is-top-priority-in-free-agency/#15293bbb7525

I’ll be a bit surprised if butler goes back. I think 50 to for Harris

[Moranis]

Unreal you guys wanting Kemba so bad.  Let's move on as quickly as possible whatever the cost so we have good feelings again

It’s not about feelings, it’s about building a winning team.

Yea, to be honest I find it very confusing why any team would not want a top 15 player in the NBA that was still performing exceptionally with a horrible supporting cast in Charlotte.... he is also 29.. what is the issue of him signing with us?

It is all just a matter of if that is the best use of the cap space.  It might very well be, but it also continues Boston's trend of signing good to very good free agents, but not landing any great ones and at the end of the day you need great players to really contend for championships.  Walker is a very good player, but he isn't making this team a contender, so is the team better off using the cap space in a different manner.  I think that is the question.

It's a fair question, but is there any alternative way to use the cap space that you can think of that would help us more? Unless you think KD or Kawhi are coming here, I'm not sure what else we can do

I think I'd take a flyer on Cousins.  He at least has the potential to be great (and then sign someone like Rubio to man the point).  That said, the other option would be using the cap space as a dumping ground to collect assets, which can be used in the future (either as players to build around Tatum or as assets in trades).  Again, Walker may very well be the best use of the cap space, especially if Cousins isn't interested, but as we saw last year (with Horford) Boston isn't a contender so adding a player similar to Irving isn't going to make the team better (Irving is slightly better than Walker, though he is less healthy so they are probably about a wash as to total value).

Yuck.

Yea, I mean we basically could have had Cousins for 5 million dollars last year. The fact that we did not offer a contract of any sort (from any reporting I saw) suggests that we were not really interested. Cousins would also be 29 when the season starts and I am not sure if he is going ever be the same as he was. I think we have to hope that we can get a capable vet center at small money or the exception and then see what we could swing the memphis pick and smart or others from over the course of the season.

And that team isn't a contender.  That was the point I was making on why some may have hesitation signing Walker.  If the goal is to win a title, I don't think Walker is how you spend your money.  C's would probably be fun and certainly would be in the playoffs, but that shouldn't be the goal.  The goal should be winning a title and I don't really see a realistic path to title contention by using all of the cap space on Walker (and it is all of the cap space).  Cousins and Rubio probably don't lead to a title contender either, but I think that route would have a greater chance since Cousins has shown the ability to be a truly great player (and frankly Cousins and Rubio still might not equal the salary of Walker so there might be someone like Kanter also available - like all in the 10-12 million range).  Yes Cousins was great pre-injury and yes it is a tough injury to come back from, but he is now more removed from it and year 2 is almost always a lot better than year 1 (from a health/performance standpoint - which also applies to Hayward).

So what team is better and more likely to win a title in the next season or 2.  The one that gives Walker 32 million or the one that gives Cousins 12 million, Rubio 10 million, and Kanter 10 million (or however you shake it out).  Same amount of money being spent.

There is some talk that we would be able to add Capela to the team with Walker (it is unclear if this would come from a trade exception with Rozier, sign and trade etc).
Does a team of
Walker
Brown
Hayward
Tatum
Capela

= title contender?

I think it does. It needs Tatum to be an all-star and Hayward to return to all-star level, but I don't see why that team couldn't be in contention post warriors breakup.

No true top end talent in that scenario, unless you mean Tatum becomes a 1st Team All NBA level all star (and if that happens it won't be next year and it is because of Tatum not anyone else).  Sure the Pistons won a title without a true top end talent but they had the most impactful defender and rebounder of the generation, but that is the exception not the rule.  Without true top end talent you are kidding yourself if you think a team is a realistic true contender.  And to be clear if Tatum reaches that level, then the team becomes a contender because of that reason and in that scenario I don't think Walker or Capela are necessarily the right surrounding pieces. 

[Celtics4ever]

but they had the most impactful defender and rebounder of the generation

Dennis Rodman played on talent ladden Piston teams, if you mean Ben Wallace, then I think you should look to Rodman once he left who was a better rebounder and defender over the course of his career than Ben Wallace.  Wallace also had Billups and Rip Hamilton who were stars and it was a very well rounded team.  Rodman had guys like Dumars and Isiah who was a top PG.

As for generation, Wallace was good for a few years then poof.  I doubt he wins any top of his generation awards ever.

[Moranis]

but they had the most impactful defender and rebounder of the generation

Dennis Rodman played on talent ladden Piston teams, if you mean Ben Wallace, then I think you should look to Rodman once he left who was a better rebounder and defender over the course of his career than Ben Wallace.  Wallace also had Billups and Rip Hamilton who were stars and it was a very well rounded team.  Rodman had guys like Dumars and Isiah who was a top PG.

As for generation, Wallace was good for a few years then poof.  I doubt he wins any top of his generation awards ever.

Rodman and Wallace aren't the same generation so I'm not sure why you mentioning them together.  I'll give you Wallace was really on that level for 6 or 7 seasons, but he won 4 DPOY in a 5 year period.  He finished in the top 3 for rpg for 5 straight years (and had a 4th and 6th after that run).  He led the league in Defensive Box Plus Minus for 6 straight seasons.  He was so good defensively that he finished on the All NBA 2nd Team 3 times and the 3rd Team 2 times.  I absolutely maintain my statement that Ben Wallace was the most impactful defender and rebounder of his generation. 

[gouki88]

but they had the most impactful defender and rebounder of the generation

Dennis Rodman played on talent ladden Piston teams, if you mean Ben Wallace, then I think you should look to Rodman once he left who was a better rebounder and defender over the course of his career than Ben Wallace.  Wallace also had Billups and Rip Hamilton who were stars and it was a very well rounded team.  Rodman had guys like Dumars and Isiah who was a top PG.

As for generation, Wallace was good for a few years then poof.  I doubt he wins any top of his generation awards ever.

Rodman and Wallace aren't the same generation so I'm not sure why you mentioning them together.  I'll give you Wallace was really on that level for 6 or 7 seasons, but he won 4 DPOY in a 5 year period.  He finished in the top 3 for rpg for 5 straight years (and had a 4th and 6th after that run).  He led the league in Defensive Box Plus Minus for 6 straight seasons.  He was so good defensively that he finished on the All NBA 2nd Team 3 times and the 3rd Team 2 times.  I absolutely maintain my statement that Ben Wallace was the most impactful defender and rebounder of his generation.

Yeah, that 2002-2006 from Wallace was crazy. 5 All-NBA teams without ever being a double-digit scorer. Insanely impactful

[seancally]

1. Any scenario that has us contending next season involves AT LEAST one of Tatum/Brown/Hayward performing like a clear All-Star. I think Tatum needs to show he can get there and I think Hayward will look much better. But that's the only path right now, Kemba or not.

2. If next season Tatum and Hayward DO take steps forward, let's say make the All-Star team - but we opted NOT to acquire Kemba and are instead starting either a second/third-tier FA or Smart - that's going to be a waste and look really dumb.

3. If next season Tatum/Brown make progress but are still not All-Star level, they still need to be in an environment where they compete every night and have a good team. We bottom out, those guys are not going to be happy and then what - they leave? We just suck for a few years and try to develop them? How do you develop guys like that who have been in the playoffs a few years already? We have to be competitive for the best version of those guys to emerge.

[Phantom255x]

WHOA. Last I checked, this poll was 30-29 in favor of "Yes". Now it's 62-36 LOL 

[RazzelnoDazzel]

WHOA. Last I checked, this poll was 30-29 in favor of "Yes". Now it's 62-36 LOL 

I don’t think anyone is really against this move it’s just that we know there is a major whole in the roster and at this moment it doesn’t look like it’s being addressed.

[CelticSooner]

Woj again basically saying it’s a done deal. Gonna be a long two days hoping something doesn’t interfere.