Author Topic: Celtics News  (Read 3861718 times)

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Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3435 on: Today at 12:15:12 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Last regular season, our top scorers were:

Brown         28.7 pts
Pritchard     17.0 pts
White          16.5 pts
Simons        14.2 pts

Of course, now subtract Brown and Simons and add in Tatum and Paul George.  You can look at this a number of ways.  I don't think the subtraction of Simons is all that important.  I think Hauser, Scheierman, Hugo, and so on can make up for his scoring.

Tatum replacing Brown will be good for White, I think.  He may not score much more if any, but hopefully better efficiency.  And if Paul George can stay on the court, I think he helps a lot.  I actually agree in general with what Stevens said.  He is an efficient player who does a lot of the things that contribute to winning, even at this age.  Obviously he has to stay on the court though.

But mostly it is about Tatum.  I view him as much better at making others better than Brown.  This will help White and everyone else to be more efficient; more productive.  If George is healthy and playing well for the playoff run, I think this team can make some noise.  Hard to see them as the favorite to get to the finals or win the title without some real surprise leap from one of the young random wings or Cenac or something but I see them as in the mix.

One thing about last year that I think is often overlooked, but I'm not sure how to quantify it:  last year's team had a chip on its shoulder.  It came in with expectations that it would be a bottom-tier playoff team, if that.  JB embraced the role of "us against the world", and the team followed him.

Last year's team overachieved because of that focus.  I think that that's hard to replicate.  Even if guys play at an acceptably hard level for the regular season, without that "prove them wrong" factor I think the wins and losses might suffer. 

I know a lot of people are applying simple logic, arguing Tatum + George + Robinson > Brown + Simons / Vucevic, and are concluding that we'll do better than 56 wins.  But, I think we've seen in the past that logic doesn't always play out.  (One example:  the 2022 played like the best team in basketball for four months and made the Finals.  We essentially traded Nesmith for Brogdon, and ended up losing to a #8 seed in the playoffs.)

Makes sense.  I think there's a solid chance that 2026-27 becomes what we thought 2025-26 was going to be. A 40-45 win team.  The team got used to winning/ being competitive every game.  It became a mentality that they had a chance to win every night.  I think talent-wise this team can do that.  But it's team culture that will ultimately determine whether this is a mediocre team or a top tier team in the East.
I agree with Roy in that JB and the team had a chip on its shoulder due to the low expectations of them and played hard to prove everyone wrong.  (This is how I also interpret JB's end of season comments about it being his favorite season --> not because Tatum wasn't playing but because the team overachieved and made a lot of national pundits have to eat crow) 
I do not see Tatum as nearly as driven as JB by naysayers (not to mention the pundits are figuring the C's to be a top team with Tatum instead of a play-in team with JB) so I think this team is going to drop games this season that they would have won last season.  Tatum has never struck me as the guy that steps up and grabs the game by the throat to will his team to a win. 
Just seems too comfortable doing what he likes (ISO 3's, pounding the ball way outside until there's only a few seconds left on the clock, walking the ball up the court, etc...) rather than push to make the tough plays (driving to the hoop for a foul, pushing the pace or getting the ball up the court quickly, passing the ball early in the shot clock to improve the chances of a good shot).

I'm hoping for the best from the team this year but I think this team is in for a significant shock in terms of wins and losses and just how much JB contributed to winning before Brad crapped the bed on that awful trade.

Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3436 on: Today at 12:27:05 PM »

Offline jambr380

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Last regular season, our top scorers were:

Brown         28.7 pts
Pritchard     17.0 pts
White          16.5 pts
Simons        14.2 pts

Of course, now subtract Brown and Simons and add in Tatum and Paul George.  You can look at this a number of ways.  I don't think the subtraction of Simons is all that important.  I think Hauser, Scheierman, Hugo, and so on can make up for his scoring.

Tatum replacing Brown will be good for White, I think.  He may not score much more if any, but hopefully better efficiency.  And if Paul George can stay on the court, I think he helps a lot.  I actually agree in general with what Stevens said.  He is an efficient player who does a lot of the things that contribute to winning, even at this age.  Obviously he has to stay on the court though.

But mostly it is about Tatum.  I view him as much better at making others better than Brown.  This will help White and everyone else to be more efficient; more productive.  If George is healthy and playing well for the playoff run, I think this team can make some noise.  Hard to see them as the favorite to get to the finals or win the title without some real surprise leap from one of the young random wings or Cenac or something but I see them as in the mix.

One thing about last year that I think is often overlooked, but I'm not sure how to quantify it:  last year's team had a chip on its shoulder.  It came in with expectations that it would be a bottom-tier playoff team, if that.  JB embraced the role of "us against the world", and the team followed him.

Last year's team overachieved because of that focus.  I think that that's hard to replicate.  Even if guys play at an acceptably hard level for the regular season, without that "prove them wrong" factor I think the wins and losses might suffer. 

I know a lot of people are applying simple logic, arguing Tatum + George + Robinson > Brown + Simons / Vucevic, and are concluding that we'll do better than 56 wins.  But, I think we've seen in the past that logic doesn't always play out.  (One example:  the 2022 played like the best team in basketball for four months and made the Finals.  We essentially traded Nesmith for Brogdon, and ended up losing to a #8 seed in the playoffs.)

Makes sense.  I think there's a solid chance that 2026-27 becomes what we thought 2025-26 was going to be. A 40-45 win team.  The team got used to winning/ being competitive every game.  It became a mentality that they had a chance to win every night.  I think talent-wise this team can do that.  But it's team culture that will ultimately determine whether this is a mediocre team or a top tier team in the East.
I agree with Roy in that JB and the team had a chip on its shoulder due to the low expectations of them and played hard to prove everyone wrong.  (This is how I also interpret JB's end of season comments about it being his favorite season --> not because Tatum wasn't playing but because the team overachieved and made a lot of national pundits have to eat crow) 
I do not see Tatum as nearly as driven as JB by naysayers (not to mention the pundits are figuring the C's to be a top team with Tatum instead of a play-in team with JB) so I think this team is going to drop games this season that they would have won last season.  Tatum has never struck me as the guy that steps up and grabs the game by the throat to will his team to a win. 
Just seems too comfortable doing what he likes (ISO 3's, pounding the ball way outside until there's only a few seconds left on the clock, walking the ball up the court, etc...) rather than push to make the tough plays (driving to the hoop for a foul, pushing the pace or getting the ball up the court quickly, passing the ball early in the shot clock to improve the chances of a good shot).

I'm hoping for the best from the team this year but I think this team is in for a significant shock in terms of wins and losses and just how much JB contributed to winning before Brad crapped the bed on that awful trade.

The bolded just seems insane to me. Tatum has the most points ever scored in a game 7. He put up 46 in an elimination game 6 against the defending champion Bucks in 2022 and went off in the 4th quarter in an elimination game 6 against the Sixers. And if you remember the game he went down with the achilles vs the Knicks, he was putting on a show, while the rest of the team was floundering.

Tatum doesn't need to make a big deal about being good or having a chip on his shoulder because he is that good already. Brown consistently fails in elimination games (2023, 2025, 2026) while Tatum rises to the occasion. It's just too bad that he seemingly gets injured at the most inopportune times in recent years. Tatum has proven time and again that when he is healthy, the Celtics have a very good chance of winning.

Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3437 on: Today at 12:50:49 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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Brown consistently fails in elimination games (2023, 2025, 2026) while Tatum rises to the occasion.

I'm going to guess that this isn't entirely accurate for either player.

For instance, Game 6 of the Finals against the Warriors:  JB puts up 34/6/6 with a .630 eFG%; Tatum had 13/3/7 on .361 eFG%

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Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3438 on: Today at 01:00:54 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Brown consistently fails in elimination games (2023, 2025, 2026) while Tatum rises to the occasion.

I'm going to guess that this isn't entirely accurate for either player.

For instance, Game 6 of the Finals against the Warriors:  JB puts up 34/6/6 with a .630 eFG%; Tatum had 13/3/7 on .361 eFG%
exactly.  JT has disappeared in a lot of playoff games and JB has stepped up in many.

Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3439 on: Today at 01:07:19 PM »

Online Donoghus

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Brown consistently fails in elimination games (2023, 2025, 2026) while Tatum rises to the occasion.

I'm going to guess that this isn't entirely accurate for either player.

For instance, Game 6 of the Finals against the Warriors:  JB puts up 34/6/6 with a .630 eFG%; Tatum had 13/3/7 on .361 eFG%
exactly.  JT has disappeared in a lot of playoff games and JB has stepped up in many.

Pretty much.  It's gone both ways but, you know, narrative.


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Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3440 on: Today at 01:09:40 PM »

Offline slamtheking

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Last regular season, our top scorers were:

Brown         28.7 pts
Pritchard     17.0 pts
White          16.5 pts
Simons        14.2 pts

Of course, now subtract Brown and Simons and add in Tatum and Paul George.  You can look at this a number of ways.  I don't think the subtraction of Simons is all that important.  I think Hauser, Scheierman, Hugo, and so on can make up for his scoring.

Tatum replacing Brown will be good for White, I think.  He may not score much more if any, but hopefully better efficiency.  And if Paul George can stay on the court, I think he helps a lot.  I actually agree in general with what Stevens said.  He is an efficient player who does a lot of the things that contribute to winning, even at this age.  Obviously he has to stay on the court though.

But mostly it is about Tatum.  I view him as much better at making others better than Brown.  This will help White and everyone else to be more efficient; more productive.  If George is healthy and playing well for the playoff run, I think this team can make some noise.  Hard to see them as the favorite to get to the finals or win the title without some real surprise leap from one of the young random wings or Cenac or something but I see them as in the mix.

One thing about last year that I think is often overlooked, but I'm not sure how to quantify it:  last year's team had a chip on its shoulder.  It came in with expectations that it would be a bottom-tier playoff team, if that.  JB embraced the role of "us against the world", and the team followed him.

Last year's team overachieved because of that focus.  I think that that's hard to replicate.  Even if guys play at an acceptably hard level for the regular season, without that "prove them wrong" factor I think the wins and losses might suffer. 

I know a lot of people are applying simple logic, arguing Tatum + George + Robinson > Brown + Simons / Vucevic, and are concluding that we'll do better than 56 wins.  But, I think we've seen in the past that logic doesn't always play out.  (One example:  the 2022 played like the best team in basketball for four months and made the Finals.  We essentially traded Nesmith for Brogdon, and ended up losing to a #8 seed in the playoffs.)

Makes sense.  I think there's a solid chance that 2026-27 becomes what we thought 2025-26 was going to be. A 40-45 win team.  The team got used to winning/ being competitive every game.  It became a mentality that they had a chance to win every night.  I think talent-wise this team can do that.  But it's team culture that will ultimately determine whether this is a mediocre team or a top tier team in the East.
I agree with Roy in that JB and the team had a chip on its shoulder due to the low expectations of them and played hard to prove everyone wrong.  (This is how I also interpret JB's end of season comments about it being his favorite season --> not because Tatum wasn't playing but because the team overachieved and made a lot of national pundits have to eat crow) 
I do not see Tatum as nearly as driven as JB by naysayers (not to mention the pundits are figuring the C's to be a top team with Tatum instead of a play-in team with JB) so I think this team is going to drop games this season that they would have won last season.  Tatum has never struck me as the guy that steps up and grabs the game by the throat to will his team to a win. 
Just seems too comfortable doing what he likes (ISO 3's, pounding the ball way outside until there's only a few seconds left on the clock, walking the ball up the court, etc...) rather than push to make the tough plays (driving to the hoop for a foul, pushing the pace or getting the ball up the court quickly, passing the ball early in the shot clock to improve the chances of a good shot).

I'm hoping for the best from the team this year but I think this team is in for a significant shock in terms of wins and losses and just how much JB contributed to winning before Brad crapped the bed on that awful trade.

The bolded just seems insane to me. Tatum has the most points ever scored in a game 7. He put up 46 in an elimination game 6 against the defending champion Bucks in 2022 and went off in the 4th quarter in an elimination game 6 against the Sixers. And if you remember the game he went down with the achilles vs the Knicks, he was putting on a show, while the rest of the team was floundering.

Tatum doesn't need to make a big deal about being good or having a chip on his shoulder because he is that good already. Brown consistently fails in elimination games (2023, 2025, 2026) while Tatum rises to the occasion. It's just too bad that he seemingly gets injured at the most inopportune times in recent years. Tatum has proven time and again that when he is healthy, the Celtics have a very good chance of winning.
JT was on the court for a lot of those disappointing playoff runs in 22, 23, 25, 26.    when I think of players that grab the game by the throat to get a win, I think Bird, Pierce, Garnett, Antoine (didn't always succeed but [dang]ed if he didn't make the effort) even Smart (didn't have the raw talent but gave his all).  Tatum is not that guy.  He definitely has the talent to carry a team to a win, but to just take it over when the team needs to be pushed to a win, not so much.

Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3441 on: Today at 01:57:49 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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Criticizing Tatum for not stepping up in big games doesn't really pass the sniff test for me. He's consistently done so when needed.

That said, I do wonder if he's the type that will inspire the rest of the team to do so/have a chip on their shoulder. That seems like something that Smart and Brown have done thus far in Tatum's career, but I can't really think of a time I've seen him to it. Maybe that's because he's a much quieter leader (publicly)?
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Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3442 on: Today at 03:08:57 PM »

Offline Celtics4ever

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Maybe that's because he's a much quieter leader (publicly)?
 


He is example by my play leader more so than a vocal leader.

Quote
JT was on the court for a lot of those disappointing playoff runs in 22, 23, 25, 26

I think it seems this way because he is a passive leader.  His stats usually say the opposite.

Tatum lead scorer playoff runs
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=2021-22+playoffs+celtics+scoring+leaders
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=2022-23+playoffs+celtics+scoring+leaders
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=2023-24+playoffs+celtics+scoring+leaders
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=2024-25+playoffs+celtics+scoring+leaders

Brown lead scorer playoff runs  * Tatum Achilles Tear still recovering.
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=2025-26+playoffs+celtics+scoring+leaders

Tatum was the leading scorer the year Brown won the finals MVP.   Brown displays more fight that is visible but what we does not always align with the stats produced.  I have found myself guilty of this but when I checked the stats I was wrong.
« Last Edit: Today at 03:20:35 PM by Celtics4ever »

Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3443 on: Today at 03:42:07 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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"Impact on winning" is the new "Optionality".  It must have done well with the marketing test groups.

Quote
People talk about veteran leadership, and they talk about how important vets are," Stevens said. "And my argument to that would be good vets are really important. Guys that really have a great understanding of where they are in their career, how they impact winning and the appropriate amount of expectations from the individual standpoint, and I think that that's what you get with Mike [Conley]. And he still, every time he plays, has a big impact on winning."

Stevens continued.

"And so I think the balance of being able to play at a high level (and) not needing to play every minute of every game is an incredibly valuable thing, and it's usually reserved for guys that have a good perspective on life. And Mike does ? he certainly has that."

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Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3444 on: Today at 03:51:23 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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"Impact on winning" is the new "Optionality".  It must have done well with the marketing test groups.

Quote
People talk about veteran leadership, and they talk about how important vets are," Stevens said. "And my argument to that would be good vets are really important. Guys that really have a great understanding of where they are in their career, how they impact winning and the appropriate amount of expectations from the individual standpoint, and I think that that's what you get with Mike [Conley]. And he still, every time he plays, has a big impact on winning."

Stevens continued.

"And so I think the balance of being able to play at a high level (and) not needing to play every minute of every game is an incredibly valuable thing, and it's usually reserved for guys that have a good perspective on life. And Mike does ? he certainly has that."
Brads been using variations of this term for like 8 years.

Re: Celtics News
« Reply #3445 on: Today at 04:17:29 PM »

Offline Roy H.

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"Impact on winning" is the new "Optionality".  It must have done well with the marketing test groups.

Quote
People talk about veteran leadership, and they talk about how important vets are," Stevens said. "And my argument to that would be good vets are really important. Guys that really have a great understanding of where they are in their career, how they impact winning and the appropriate amount of expectations from the individual standpoint, and I think that that's what you get with Mike [Conley]. And he still, every time he plays, has a big impact on winning."

Stevens continued.

"And so I think the balance of being able to play at a high level (and) not needing to play every minute of every game is an incredibly valuable thing, and it's usually reserved for guys that have a good perspective on life. And Mike does ? he certainly has that."
Brads been using variations of this term for like 8 years.

Has he been using it on 36 and 39 year olds, though?
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