Celtics make offer to Maggette!!! / Spurs in lead to get him? (merged)

[Roy Hobbs]

You're disregarding this part:
 

[dang], I was. TP for the explanation, I stand corrected. Delete my former 12312 posts. 

We're basically talking semantics here, because either way the team doesn't get to use the MLE.  However, you're incorrect as to why.  The situation you're talking about is when a team has, say, $7 million in "cap room", but can't use it because there's an MLE hold.  In that case, you renounce the MLE (and your LLE), and you can sign a free agent to a $7 million contract; if you hadn't renounced the MLE, you wouldn't be able to.

Exactly, exactly. I should have read it.

Phew...  Between you and BC, you guys are going to make me experts on the CBA.  Maybe I can apply for a job with the Player's Union. 

TP back at you for an interesting conversation (at least for the two of us).

[BudweiserCeltic]

But they can't sign Davis with $7.6 million in cap room. That's why they have to renounce to the MLE. The MLE is always there as a cap hold.

You're not getting it, and I can't explain it any better.

The team loses its MLE as soon as it has cap room above the MLE-hold (and the LLE- and traded-player exception holds).  Once that MLE is lost, there's nothing for the team to renounce.  They don't have it, so they can't renounce it.

So, how do they sign Davis if you're right? What is "lost" is the ability to use the MLE to sign FA, it keeps counting as a cap hold. Hence, you have to renounce it to make room.

They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million.  Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap.  So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room.  So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

You're disregarding this part:

The Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions may be lost entirely, or the team may never receive them to begin with.  This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap.  If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then the team doesn't get the exception.  If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they had are lost.

Once this happens, the MLE disappears, and obviously, the MLE-hold disappears, as well.

Well the question then is did they ever get THAT low so that they never got those exceptions to renounce. Because from what I see, factoring in their free-agents, they went over the cap. So, they should renounce it from what I see in this case in particular.

But yeah, as you guys say... it's all semantics... in practice, teams that sign players with their cap room just don't get the MLE. That's all we need to know.

[Roy Hobbs]

Well the question then is did they ever get THAT low so that they never got those exceptions to renounce. Because from what I see, factoring in their free-agents, they went over the cap. So, they should renounce it from what I see in this case in particular.

Yes, they did (or, more accurately, they will have to).  Basically, the progression to sign Brand goes like this:

Team payroll + Brand hold + Maggette hold + Livingston hold + $7.6 million (MLE, etc., hold) > salary cap; no room to sign Davis, which is followed by:

Team payroll + Brand hold + Maggette hold + (Livingston renounced) + $7.6 million > salary cap; no room to sign Davis, which is followed by:

Team payroll + Brand signs new, cheaper deal + Maggette hold + (Livingston renounced) + $7.6 million > salary cap; no room to sign Davis, which is followed by:

Team payroll + Brand signs new, cheaper deal + (Maggette renounced) + (Livingston renounced) + $7.6 million < salary cap.  Because the team has now fallen below the magic "salaries + exceptions" cap number, the team loses its MLE.  Any MLE hold disappears, and the team has the salary cap room to sign Davis.

[rohnskituen]

I just hope that singing Maggette doesn't backfire when he destroys the chemistry, and Posey signs with the Cavs that in turn beats them next year in the playoff. God forbid such a thing!!!

[Brendan]

ouch - that was a painful merge - no idea what this thread is about anymore. one second we're talking about Maggette - now its a five page salary cap / CBA discussion.

[BballTim]

But they can't sign Davis with $7.6 million in cap room. That's why they have to renounce to the MLE. The MLE is always there as a cap hold.

You're not getting it, and I can't explain it any better.

The team loses its MLE as soon as it has cap room above the MLE-hold (and the LLE- and traded-player exception holds).  Once that MLE is lost, there's nothing for the team to renounce.  They don't have it, so they can't renounce it.

So, how do they sign Davis if you're right? What is "lost" is the ability to use the MLE to sign FA, it keeps counting as a cap hold. Hence, you have to renounce it to make room.

They also have a Mid-Level exception for $5 million and a Traded Player exception for $5.5 million.  Even though their salaries put them $6.5 million under the cap, their exceptions are added to their salaries, putting them at $53.5 million, or $4 million over the cap.  So they actually have no cap room to sign free agents, and must instead use their exceptions.

Teams have the option of renouncing their exceptions in order to claim the cap room.  So in the example above, if the team renounced their Traded Player and Mid-Level exceptions, then the $10.5 million is taken off their team salary, which then totals $43 million, leaving them with $6.5 million of cap room which can then be used to sign free agent(s).

You're disregarding this part:

The Disabled Player, Bi-Annual, Mid-Level and Traded Player exceptions may be lost entirely, or the team may never receive them to begin with.  This happens when their team salary is so low that when the exceptions are added to the team salary, the sum is still below the salary cap.  If the team salary is below this level when the exception arises, then the team doesn't get the exception.  If the team salary ever drops below this level during the year, then any exceptions they had are lost.

Once this happens, the MLE disappears, and obviously, the MLE-hold disappears, as well.

Well the question then is did they ever get THAT low so that they never got those exceptions to renounce. Because from what I see, factoring in their free-agents, they went over the cap. So, they should renounce it from what I see in this case in particular.

But yeah, as you guys say... it's all semantics... in practice, teams that sign players with their cap room just don't get the MLE. That's all we need to know.

  They have to get far enough under the cap to sign Davis. By the time they do they'll obviously be more than the exceptions below the cap.

[BudweiserCeltic]

I understood that... I guess it was more of a question of when through the process do they have to get that low, and when in the process is it decided that you get MLE or not.

But whatever, the discussion is done, let's move on.

I just hope that singing Maggette doesn't backfire when he destroys the chemistry, and Posey signs with the Cavs that in turn beats them next year in the playoff. God forbid such a thing!!!

Hey, let's grow up together like a happy family shall we? I'm not worried about chemistry. The only chemistry I worry about is the starting 5, especially the big 3. If they have their thing going, NO ONE is going to disturb the chemistry.

[Jon]

I really feel like this might have all started from some posturing by Danny to get Posey signed.  Think about it...

Danny offers Posey less than the midlevel.  He doesn't want Posey to sit around and wait to see if offers get better after the big FAs sign.  So he "offers" Maggette the midlevel, thinking it's unlikely he'd take it, but it's more realistic than a guy like Baron Davis taking it, so more believable to Posey and his agent, hopefully scaring them into taking Danny's offer for fear that it won't be there in a few weeks.  The Spurs hear about Danny offering the midlevel and giving the "championship" incentive, and figure they are in the same boat, and offer the midlevel to Maggette.  Maggette, gets the offers, says he's "interested" because he wants to scare teams out there with money into offering it to him now, for fear that he might not be there when all the other big names sign. 

Now of course Maggette could be interested in joining the C's.  But it seems unlikely.  He's 29 in November, if he signs any contract of length, this could be the best it gets for him for the rest of his career.  I know we talk about sacrifice with the Big Three, but remember, all they sacrificed was stats, none of them sacrificed any money. 

[Andy Jick]

antoine called danny a snake...sometimes that's not a bad quality to have...

[ACF]

antoine called danny a snake...sometimes that's not a bad quality to have...

Unless that snake is a Black Mamba!