The Kyrie Irving free agency thread(to sign 4yr/$141M w/Nets page 105)

[Chris22]

Kyrie as your best player has a limited ceiling.

He is not in the same league as Steph or even prime playoff Tony Parker.

This C’s Team has talent and depth and a great Coach.

The only issue is lack of leadership.

We aren't that talented. Last year the East just sucked.

[RJ87]

Kyrie as your best player has a limited ceiling.

He is not in the same league as Steph or even prime playoff Tony Parker.

This C’s Team has talent and depth and a great Coach.

The only issue is lack of leadership.

Isn't that an oxymoron?

[keevsnick]

why does the narrative keep changing against Kyrie?

Small players dont win championships? No single player wins any championship in the past 30 years.

So lets look at teams that have won the last 20 championships and look at their starting pg.

GSW - Steph 6foot3
GSW
Cleveland - Kyrie 6foot3
GSW
SAS - Parker 6foot2
Miami - Chalmers 6foot2
Miami
Dallas - Kidd 6foot4
LAL - Fisher 6foot1
LAL
Boston - Rondo 6foot1
SAS
Miami
SAS
Detroit - Billups 6foot3
SAS
LAL
LAL
LAL
SAS
Bulls - Harper 6foot6

The notion that you cannot win with a "small" pg is foolish.

And the notion that Irving has to, or cannot be the one, who can win finals MVP because of his size is incorrect as well.

If a player impacts his team winning the finals more than anyone else on the team....that player will get the MVP award.

Size does not matter in relation to this, it is an award given to impact.  If Boston wins the finals this season, and Kyrie continues to put up big numbers with everyone else on the team doing middling contributions, then Kyrie will win the MVP award.

You are missing the point. Small guards don't win championships. You need a Durant, Lebron, Leonard, Kobe, Pierce, etc....

Until we get someone like that, we aren't winning a championship.

Steph amd billups say no to that.

You win with talent

Get enough of that and you win it all.

Team has a glut of at times underperforming wings and oft injured bigmen

Give kyrie a consistant shooter and defender on the wing spot. Someone who can consistantly score with him and a couple bigmen who can defend and stay healthy and no problems.

Kyrie has been shut down in this series so far. This is the problem with small guards. Teams actually play defense in the playoffs. The best thing to have is someone bigger who can score like Lebron, Durand, Leonard, Giannis, etc...

Kyrie has been shut down cause no one else can do anything.

I mentioned this in another thread but the primary difference between Kyrie and a true next level superstar is a superstar is able to forcibly generate the shots they want at a high frequency and shoot the at a high percentage. Kawhi does this by methodically getting to his spot with his strength. Giannis does it by dominating the paint. Durant does it by being freakishly long and shooting  over everyone. Kyrie meanwhile is just elite at hitting the shts he's given. Its a similar problem to the one Harden has, when your primary skill is hitting hard shots you are prone t immense variations in performance when defenses tighten up. Kyrie is a lot like that, but without as many FT's to normalize his efficiency. And tahts the problem with small guards, unless they are also an immense athlete they can't generate the shots they want the same way a larger guy can.

[Vox_Populi]

Still sick?  Or maybe just maybe not the player this board generally seemed to think he was.

Kyrie's current play exemplifies a version not any rational person would have expected, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

except it does.  This is what Kyrie does, he mystifies people with these fabulous games and then people just forget about the stinkers he has before those fabulous games.  Kyrie is an inconsistent shooter and does almost nothing else to help a team win basketball games, such that when his shot is off, his teams lose.  When he is on, he is unguardable and magic happens, but he just isn't on nearly enough to truly matter.

He's had back to back seasons of borderline 50/40/90. He is literally one of the least variant high volume shooters in the NBA - although his overall scoring efficiency is inconsistent because he never gets to the line.

He has been as bad as Lillard was last post-season. No one saw this coming from either.

have you actually looked at his shooting percentages.  He had 5 games at 30% or worse and 5 games at 70% or better.  9 games between 30 and 39.9%, but just 6 games between 60 and 69.9%.  17 games in the 40's, 11 games at exactly 50%, and 14 games from 50.1 to 59.9.  In other words, he has about an even distribution all the way through with plenty of crappy games. 

This is exactly what Irving does, while playing crappy defense, not passing that well, not rebounding well, etc.

Saying he's inconsistent, is an utterly useless statement without a standard. Irving's game to game shooting variance was .016 - which is right in line with other players with his three-point attempt rate and his PPG average. You can check yourself. I guess he's inconsistent relative to the average old man at the YMCA, but not on any meaningful level compared to his contemporaries.

[Tr1boy]

It's over

Too much of a ball hog hero ball

Doesn't mesh with CBS system

[RazzelnoDazzel]

I think he stays. Celtics have all the pieces to build a contender in the east...whether it is develop Tatum/Brown or go out and get Anthony Davis.

If you end up with a lineup of Kyrie/Brown/Hayward/Horford/Davis that is a really solid team to get out of the east.

Ditto!! See my post above. Agree 1000%

And what if Gordon still isn’t right and isn’t mixing well with AD and Kyrie because he’s just too slow and or isn’t mentally ready to be a 1st/2nd scoring option? Then by time playoffs come he’s still “adjusting” which is eventually why we end up losing again? Listen Gordon is a gamble all I’m saying is that if we can eliminate the risk then why not go for it? Wether he comes to form or not it won’t hurt us to replace him with another all-star without an injury history 🤷🏽‍♂️. If this doesn’t make sense to people then idk what more to say.

Part of the issue with Hayward has been that we have a mis-matched roster. That's been a problem since opening night. Way too many wing players. When that happens, guys minutes get cut and they're put in situations where it's VERY hard to succeed. I agree that Hayward has been underwhelming and have mentioned that many times myself. However, it's not so clear-cut as "oh he sucks" or "oh he's injury prone." I just think alot of times, Brad is trying to distribute minutes as evenly as possible and it's affecting the quality of play. Also, when Danny signed Hayward, no one foresaw him breaking his leg his first night as a Celtic with Tatum doing such a good job filling in for a rookie.

But right now, despite Tatum's good first half last night, I would strongly consider starting Hayward. Nothing to lose. Tatum has been inconsistent this season and Hayward is too good of a proven player to let him rot on the bench with inconsistent minutes.

Say what you will, I’m sticking to my initial theory. Idc if we come back and win this series and Hayward gets straight triple doubles. His game doesn’t mix with the pace the Celtics are trying to play. He would fit perfect with the Mavs who I cannot see turning him down.

[ozgod]

I hate how smug Barkley usually is but he's not wrong on this occasion.

https://twitter.com/NBAonTNT/status/1125621619903291392

Gotta take the good with the bad. This is what he signed up for.

[LilRip]

They’re not wrong. The bucks have stopped kyrie these past 3 games and as he goes, the C’s go as well.

[Moranis]

Still sick?  Or maybe just maybe not the player this board generally seemed to think he was.

Kyrie's current play exemplifies a version not any rational person would have expected, so I'm not sure what you're trying to say.

except it does.  This is what Kyrie does, he mystifies people with these fabulous games and then people just forget about the stinkers he has before those fabulous games.  Kyrie is an inconsistent shooter and does almost nothing else to help a team win basketball games, such that when his shot is off, his teams lose.  When he is on, he is unguardable and magic happens, but he just isn't on nearly enough to truly matter.

He was bad tonight. No excuses, no question.

But why are you giving everybody else a pass? Hayward has simply disappeared in both ends. Tatum hasn’t been able to buy a wide-open 3. Horford misses some key wiiiiiiide open 3s. Terry was awful but that’s his level. This was a team loss.

The star always gets a disproportionate amount of the blame but also the success.  This is what being a star is.  The only exceptions is when the star clearly plays well and the team still doesn't win and that hasn't been the case in this series (like say if the Sixers beat the Raptors and Kawhi continues to play like he has then Kawhi won't be blamed for the loss)

[RazzelnoDazzel]

Look I know it’s bash Kyrie night and be definitely is having a horrible series, but where’s the help? Where are these “superstar” potential players that we had? Nobody else had 20! I agree that Kyrie was messing all the way up which indicates to me he a a solid 1b player who needs a 1a player.

This is something I kind of knew already, but he was convincing me that he could figure it out with this talent that we had, but it just cannot happen. Gordon and Kyrie was supposed to be two 1b players who would take over the Celtics, well Kyrie is all alone. I would say it’s not his fault that Gordon isn’t playing up to par, but..... it kind is. Kyrie is who hurt Hayward and is the reason he doesn’t have the right help.

[gouki88]

I've been a pretty adamant defender of Kyrie all season. Would be lunacy if I tried to deny that.

And I'll sure as heck be the first to say he has failed us this series. His G1 was excellent, and IMO he showed what he is when he's at his best. Deadly scorer with the ability to get others involved and an improved defender & rebounder from his Cleveland days. ~30% shooting from the field and sub-30% from deep is absolutely inexcusable. He wanted to be a leader - then step up and lead.

That being said, I hope he stays with us. He's a top 3 PG in the league and is younger than Dame, Curry and Westbrook. He's improved both years he's been with us. I also want him to stay because it likely would mean AD is coming (assuming the two moves wouldn't happen within hours of one another). I want us to win banners, and I think that those two would give us the best chance.

I overestimated our talent, and thought we'd have 3 All-Star (or borderline at least) level guys this year. We had 1. I don't think Kyrie is good enough to be the best player on a team if it wants to compete and it only has 1 All-Star. Tatum didn't develop as well as he should have. We all under-estimated Hayward's second surgery and his rehab, and then I think he lost confidence in himself + was misused. Rozier became one of the worst players in the league. Brown struggled early, but to his credit killed it at the end of the year and after starting slow in the playoffs has arguably been our best player since.

I'm questioning Brad the most right now.

[Silky]

Hayward is trash
Horford is aging quickly and doesnt hold his own at center
Tatum has arguably regressed
Terry might be one of the worst players in the league playing consistant minutes
Baynes is always hurt
Smart has been out

But yeah...Kyrie sucks....


Sigh

[Spilling Green Dye]

As bad as Kyrie shot, and forced things too much, he did setup guys for easy 3-pointers and they just didn't hit.  Smart was 1 for 7, and Rozier (who I can't stand) played one of his worst games.  Tatum's shot never looked set either.. even when he was by himself it was some fadaway, etc.

I kept thinking in the 2nd quarter that the Celtics would pull away b/c they were getting quality perimeter shots but just not making them.  I was wrong.. they somehow kept missing them despite the law of average.  Let's home game 5 they shoot better... they can't shoot much worse.

[celticinorlando]

Kyrie staying allows them to attract other stars (AD). If he goes this team will be super young. Maybe that is not a bad thing.

I am just done with his attitude.

[Csfan1984]

They key in on Irving on both sides of the court. By 4th quarter he was toast.