Let Kyrie walk, don't go after AD, build around young core

[tenn_smoothie]

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

One, we would not be in a rebuilding phase. We would be where we were before Irving, but with Hayward added and the young guys greatly improved - and if you don't think they return to their consistent selves without Irving, you are mistaken.

Problem is, we aren't winning anything with Irving. His game clashes too much with the other players and it is becoming more and more obvious that he is emotionally fragile and in a different mood every week. The guy has had a problem with other coaches and any good team needs their leader to be a rock-solid personality. Poor Kyrie just isn't that type of person. He will always be restless.

[PhoSita]

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

At this point, I have little faith that contention is happening in the next few years regardless, so my #1 goal is to actually like the team again and to look forward to seeing them play.


So sign me up for Kyrie going to New York to be part of a franchise that deserves him.  Let Rozier get paid starter money for the Orlando Magic, or whatever. 

Let's sign a veteran point guard.  Let's use all our draft picks.  Let's re-sign Horford to a long term deal at less money.  Let's add some high character veterans to round out the bench. 


Then let's see how good Jayson, Jaylen, and Hayward can be over the next 4-5 years. 

Let's watch Smart and Horford play in green until they're ready to retire.

Let's talk about a Brad Stevens team that overachieves, plays harder in the regular season than basically anybody, that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Hey, let's sign Isaiah Thomas to a MLE deal and see what he has left in the tank.


I'm all in on feeling good about the Celtics again.  I don't care if it means the ceiling is reaching the ECF again and losing to a team with an MVP talent. 

It's better than this mess.

then go to the movies or root for another team. i honestly think you are a troll and not a celtics fan with these borderline asinine posts.

Then you aren't reading my posts carefully or in good faith.

[tenn_smoothie]

Just an observation I'm making, but it seems the "veterans" on here are pushing for the AD deal, while the newer and/or younger folks here (myself included) are not so sold on it for several different reasons. Just thought that was interesting 

I've been on the board since the '08 team and have been a Celtics fan since 1969 - I am for the young core, Phantom - I think that is the best chance to add to that great avatar you have, as in more Boston titles. Look how the Warriors were built.

[PhoSita]

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

At this point, I have little faith that contention is happening in the next few years regardless, so my #1 goal is to actually like the team again and to look forward to seeing them play.


So sign me up for Kyrie going to New York to be part of a franchise that deserves him.  Let Rozier get paid starter money for the Orlando Magic, or whatever. 

Let's sign a veteran point guard.  Let's use all our draft picks.  Let's re-sign Horford to a long term deal at less money.  Let's add some high character veterans to round out the bench. 


Then let's see how good Jayson, Jaylen, and Hayward can be over the next 4-5 years. 

Let's watch Smart and Horford play in green until they're ready to retire.

Let's talk about a Brad Stevens team that overachieves, plays harder in the regular season than basically anybody, that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Hey, let's sign Isaiah Thomas to a MLE deal and see what he has left in the tank.


I'm all in on feeling good about the Celtics again.  I don't care if it means the ceiling is reaching the ECF again and losing to a team with an MVP talent. 

It's better than this mess.

No, not really. As a fan, you should be rooting for your team to win a championship, not simply just making the ECF as our ceiling. C'mon man!

Again, a championship should always be the goal.

But the vast majority of seasons will not end in a championship.

There have got to be things you value as a fan beyond simply winning a championship. Otherwise what are we really doing here?

This all or nothing mentality is what makes New England fans seem crazy entitled to people from other parts of the country.

[PhoSita]

Sign Kyrie if he stays, Go after AD and hope we use only one of JB or Tatum. Contend for the next 8 yrs with prime Kyrie, prime AD and whats left of our young core.

What in the world gives you the idea that Kyrie and AD would be here for 8 years?  In 8 years those guys will be 33.

[RPGenerate]

Just an observation I'm making, but it seems the "veterans" on here are pushing for the AD deal, while the newer and/or younger folks here (myself included) are not so sold on it for several different reasons. Just thought that was interesting 

I've been on the board since the '08 team and have been a Celtics fan since 1969 - I am for the young core, Phantom - I think that is the best chance to add to that great avatar you have, as in more Boston titles. Look how the Warriors were built.

Comparing any team to the Warriors and how they were built is absolutely laughable. They were a complete anomaly. "Hey, all we have to do is tank for the 2nd pick and draft a Jordan-like talent, and we're all set!". Plus they have Curry, an all-time great who is the engine to that Warriors team. Do you think anyone on this team now has that potential?

[ScoobyDoo]

This is a good topic and I've really been on the fence with this one. For me, there doesn't seem to be an easy, clear choice, when looking at either option, for different reasons...

Option #1: A trade to New Orleans centered around Jayson Tatum, likely including a re-signed Terry Rozier, Time Lord (possibly Smart) and a bunch of draft picks. So you roll out:

Anthony Davis / Aaron Baynes
Al Horford / Daniel Theis
Gordon Hayward / Marcus Morris (re-signed)
Jaylen Brown / Semi Ojeleye
Kyrie Irving / Mid Level guy

That starting line probably wins multiple titles if kept together.
* The Bench is defensive and gritty and you can make up their lack of offense by generally having two of your starter on the court at all times
* The idea would be to re-sign Kyrie, win big and then therefore entice Davis to resign long term as well
* Risks: It doesn't work out and Davis can walk

Option #2 is the youth movement:, perhaps keeping Kyrie long term, or not - let's say we do and you use your mid level to simply add another really solid big man like Marc Gasol (after Leonard leaves and Toronto doesn't look so bright any longer)

Baynes / Gasol / Time Lord
Horford / Theis / Yabusele
Hayward / Morris / Ojeleye
Tatum / Brown
Irving / Smart
* You used your mid-level on Gasol
* You have your lower level for a back up veteran PG/SG
* You retain the Sacto pick, The Clippers pick, the Memphis pick and all your Celtics picks
* Depending on how successfully you draft, you could re-stock your bench with cheap young talent, for example:

C - Time Lord
PF - Bruno Fernando (Clipper's pick)
SF- Brandon Clarke or Keldon Johnson (Sacto pick)
SG - Colby White (Celtics pick)

And you STILL have Memphis top 6 protected pick next year and unprotected the year after that...

Both teams could be incredibly great if it all meshed. You'd like to think the AD, Irving team with outstanding glue guys in Horford, Brown, Hayward and the bench could be dominant. But that option #2 team could be just as good and have a much longer window if it meshed. Very difficult off season coming up for Ainge.

His job would be much, much easier if:
1. Irving was a true two player and skilled leader, and
2. Anthony Davis said he'd really like to play in Boston (with Irving...). It still baffles me that he wouldn't want to play in Boston, with the front office, the coaching and all the talent that would be around him for the first time in his career, even after trading for him.       
 
       

[Surferdad]

One angle I haven't seen discussed is the following scenario:
1) Neither Kyrie nor AD are on this team next year
2) Kyrie and AD sign in NY
3) Toronto resigns Leonard
4) Philly resigns Butler/Harris

In that case, the Celtics will NOT be better than the following EC teams and likely for quite a while: TOR, PHI, MIL, NYK.

This could happen. 

[Green-18]

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

At this point, I have little faith that contention is happening in the next few years regardless, so my #1 goal is to actually like the team again and to look forward to seeing them play.


So sign me up for Kyrie going to New York to be part of a franchise that deserves him.  Let Rozier get paid starter money for the Orlando Magic, or whatever. 

Let's sign a veteran point guard.  Let's use all our draft picks.  Let's re-sign Horford to a long term deal at less money.  Let's add some high character veterans to round out the bench. 


Then let's see how good Jayson, Jaylen, and Hayward can be over the next 4-5 years. 

Let's watch Smart and Horford play in green until they're ready to retire.

Let's talk about a Brad Stevens team that overachieves, plays harder in the regular season than basically anybody, that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Hey, let's sign Isaiah Thomas to a MLE deal and see what he has left in the tank.


I'm all in on feeling good about the Celtics again.  I don't care if it means the ceiling is reaching the ECF again and losing to a team with an MVP talent. 

It's better than this mess.

No, not really. As a fan, you should be rooting for your team to win a championship, not simply just making the ECF as our ceiling. C'mon man!

Again, a championship should always be the goal.

But the vast majority of seasons will not end in a championship.

There have got to be things you value as a fan beyond simply winning a championship. Otherwise what are we really doing here?

This all or nothing mentality is what makes New England fans seem crazy entitled to people from other parts of the country.

I can relate to most of what you are saying.  It's always a bonus to have a high character team that makes the 82 game journey fun.  Where I draw the line is when a team has no opportunity to improve after a successful season.   

There's a balance to all of this.  Most of my friends who are "title or bust" don't really enjoy the little things.  They might as well not even watch until the playoffs.  Even then, much of it boils down to a social event above all else. 

[jambr380]

One angle I haven't seen discussed is the following scenario:
1) Neither Kyrie nor AD are on this team next year
2) Kyrie and AD sign in NY
3) Toronto resigns Leonard
4) Philly resigns Butler/Harris

In that case, the Celtics will NOT be better than the following EC teams and likely for quite a while: TOR, PHI, MIL, NYK.

This could happen.

I am not sure why we would have any chance of being better than a young, up and coming Indiana team either.

The whole 'we should just let Kyrie walk' movement is just totally bizarro world to me. Pho provides an odd, but valid reason that we aren't ever likely to win a championship so we might as well have a team that we like, but I think other people genuinely think that letting a 26 y/o superstar leave in FA might actually make us better - in the short term and long run. I just don't get this from a value standpoint.

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

One, we would not be in a rebuilding phase. We would be where we were before Irving, but with Hayward added and the young guys greatly improved - and if you don't think they return to their consistent selves without Irving, you are mistaken.

Problem is, we aren't winning anything with Irving. His game clashes too much with the other players and it is becoming more and more obvious that he is emotionally fragile and in a different mood every week. The guy has had a problem with other coaches and any good team needs their leader to be a rock-solid personality. Poor Kyrie just isn't that type of person. He will always be restless.

But we wouldn't be where we were before Irving. First, we had a MVP-level talent in IT leading the way and incredible glue guys in AB, Crowder, and KO totally buying into the Stevens plan. We also had the #8 pick in the draft. And, while Tatum and Brown are improving, Horford is aging and Hayward will probably never reach his peak again. Your 2nd paragraph is just conjecture - you (and nobody here) knows anything about Kyrie or how he will grow. Also, many of our other players will be gone so that should solve some of the problem.

[MichiganAdam]

I wonder if we could include KI and get AD and Bradley Beal.  He seems a better mesh with the skills of the other guys.  I like the look of MS, BB, GH, AH, AD.  Used JB, JT, and KI and filler for the 3 deals.  All 5 of those guys could average 5 assists.  GH and MS are good facilitators who dont need the ball in there hand...GH is probably the worst defendr of that group and that ain't bad.

[gpap]

I wonder if we could include KI and get AD and Bradley Beal.  He seems a better mesh with the skills of the other guys.  I like the look of MS, BB, GH, AH, AD.  Used JB, JT, and KI and filler for the 3 deals.  All 5 of those guys could average 5 assists.  GH and MS are good facilitators who dont need the ball in there hand...GH is probably the worst defendr of that group and that ain't bad.

I think the Wizards probably want to build around Beal. One guy who would be great in Boston is Khris Middleton. The Celts could use Horford's contract in a sign and trade for Milwaukee.

A line-up consisting of Middleton, Hayward and Tatum would be a really good one with a decent center and point guard. Brown can used in a trade to acquire one or the other. Use the MLE on another free agent. Celts also have their draft picks they could use as trade bait.

Those picks would probably mean more to a rebuilding team, anyway.

[Donoghus]

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

One, we would not be in a rebuilding phase. We would be where we were before Irving, but with Hayward added and the young guys greatly improved - and if you don't think they return to their consistent selves without Irving, you are mistaken.

Problem is, we aren't winning anything with Irving. His game clashes too much with the other players and it is becoming more and more obvious that he is emotionally fragile and in a different mood every week. The guy has had a problem with other coaches and any good team needs their leader to be a rock-solid personality. Poor Kyrie just isn't that type of person. He will always be restless.

They'd be taking a step backwards and, in all likelihood, be a couple of years away from being a legit contender if things broke the right way with the young guys.    Especially if the East continues to go the way its going, which is improving.

[cman88]

thing is, does a team with that lineup crack top 5 in the east(especially if we are only a #5 right now") with an improving Bucks, Raptors and Philly.

I think you are hoping that Brown/Tatum take the next step and become superstars that can lead us to the promised land. They very well might be able to, but right now it is a question mark.

I do think a team with Kyrie/Anthony Davis immediately puts in contention with those teams.

[gouki88]

I wonder if we could include KI and get AD and Bradley Beal.  He seems a better mesh with the skills of the other guys.  I like the look of MS, BB, GH, AH, AD.  Used JB, JT, and KI and filler for the 3 deals.  All 5 of those guys could average 5 assists.  GH and MS are good facilitators who dont need the ball in there hand...GH is probably the worst defendr of that group and that ain't bad.

I think the Wizards probably want to build around Beal. One guy who would be great in Boston is Khris Middleton. The Celts could use Horford's contract in a sign and trade for Milwaukee.

A line-up consisting of Middleton, Hayward and Tatum would be a really good one with a decent center and point guard. Brown can used in a trade to acquire one or the other. Use the MLE on another free agent. Celts also have their draft picks they could use as trade bait.

Those picks would probably mean more to a rebuilding team, anyway.

Really hate the idea of assembling a Giannis/Horford front court