Let Kyrie walk, don't go after AD, build around young core

[PhoSita]

I'm more concerned about them winning championships rather than how warm & fuzzy they make me on the inside and plateauing.

Yeah, I get it. 

I just think that if you throw everything else out about team building and only care about trying to win championships, you're not going to enjoy the process it takes to get there, and the whole thing is going to feel like it's only worth it if the team ends up winning a title.

Or to be clear, I don't think I'll enjoy that very much.  Maybe you will, which is fine.


But let's face it, the chances are much, much greater that they won't win a title in any given season than that they will.

So why put yourself in a position where you're not going to enjoy the season unless it results in a title?  Why set your bar at "contending for a title" for feeling that the season was worth watching?


We spend way too much time on this team, in my opinion, to be OK with a team that's really unpleasant, dysfunctional, etc ... in other words, more of a headache than a positive part of our day to day lives.


I get that some people feel differently, but for me, if they end up winning a title sometime in the next three years, that's not going to "all be worth it" if along the way they've been making me feel the way they've made me feel this whole season.


The goal that the team is striving toward should always be title contention, but I don't think we should just concede caring at all about the way they get there.

[CF033]

I guess I'm not a championship or bust kind of person. I lean towards going with the young core myself. I believe that they can develop into MUCH better players than they are today, especially if they are able to take the reins and can play unencumbered. But I know it's a risk.

That said I have no doubt whatsoever that Ainge is going to aggressively pursue AD in the offseason.

Right now though I feel like it's about a 50/50 proposition that Kyrie walks.

PhoSita states it well - on an AD/Kyrie team anything short of a championship is a disappointment and odds are they probably will fall short of that mark.

[Triplenickle]

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

At this point, I have little faith that contention is happening in the next few years regardless, so my #1 goal is to actually like the team again and to look forward to seeing them play.


So sign me up for Kyrie going to New York to be part of a franchise that deserves him.  Let Rozier get paid starter money for the Orlando Magic, or whatever. 

Let's sign a veteran point guard.  Let's use all our draft picks.  Let's re-sign Horford to a long term deal at less money.  Let's add some high character veterans to round out the bench. 


Then let's see how good Jayson, Jaylen, and Hayward can be over the next 4-5 years. 

Let's watch Smart and Horford play in green until they're ready to retire.

Let's talk about a Brad Stevens team that overachieves, plays harder in the regular season than basically anybody, that is greater than the sum of their parts.

Hey, let's sign Isaiah Thomas to a MLE deal and see what he has left in the tank.


I'm all in on feeling good about the Celtics again.  I don't care if it means the ceiling is reaching the ECF again and losing to a team with an MVP talent. 

It's better than this mess.

The main reason i'm against letting Terry go is because when he was starting, it was a really good fit because they ran alot and were pretty unstoppable in transition with Tatum, Brown and even Smart who can see the lanes real well, And Al looks good on the run too. Matter fact the whole team looks entirely different running. Alot of times Terry started the run off the rebound or steal, which is the only way you CAN run except a block. Some of those teams last year had no answers for so many players being good on the run.

Brad and Danny burned that down this season, snatching something good away from those guys and putting other players ahead of them.

What you're seeing this year is not those guys fault, just a lack of vision and failure to use what they have.

Like...this is the weirdest thing I ever saw a team do. It was the start of something good, and the next year they threw Hayward in front of everyone and everything positive they started.

I didn't mention Kyrie cause he fits into that very well and actually played and was a positive last year.

I'm sorry, but your boy Hayward, Brad and Danny are the reason you're seeing what you're seeing right now.

[td450]

I have no interest in dropping back down to a borderline playoff team (if even that) & rebuilding again.

Ainge isn't either. That's not the point. What matters is what is the best chance for the franchise. The whole Kyrie/AD thing rests on betting that Kyrie makes all of this work and makes Anthony Davis happy.

At the end of this year, if things go poorly, Kyrie may not even want to make this work. He may also convince Ainge behind the scenes that he just isn't the type of guy who can make it work. Davis is not a true alpha type personality. He's not LeBron. It won't be enough to just be a cold-blooded scorer. Kyrie needs to make this an appealing team environment. If this team gets knocked out in the first round, I don't expect this to be a happy bunch of guys, and the blame will land like a ton of bricks on Kyrie. How will he handle that?

[PhoSita]

I'm sorry, but your boy Hayward, Brad and Danny are the reason you're seeing what you're seeing right now.

I don't agree.  Hayward this year has been a low usage player who, every time he's on the court, has put in effort on defense and has tried to keep the ball moving.  He's very hesitant with respect to actually driving or scoring, but I dont' think that's the source of consternation on the team right now.

I do think that a big issue on the team is that there are several guys who think they should be getting more time and more shots, and maybe they resent Hayward for getting any minutes because he's not been much of a scorer, and they think they're better than him.

But frankly, Terry isn't better than Hayward.  He's been awful this year.  He has hurt the team far more than Hayward ever has.  Morris, lately, is in that category as well.

Hayward knows how to play team ball.  I don't think Terry really does.



Give me an adequate-not-great veteran starting point guard over Terry Rozier any day of the week.  Ricky Rubio, Darren Collison, Jeff Teague, Jeremy Lin, even DJ Augustin.  I'd happily take any of them over Terry Rozier.

[RJ87]

I'm more concerned about them winning championships rather than how warm & fuzzy they make me on the inside and plateauing.

Yeah, I get it. 

I just think that if you throw everything else out about team building and only care about trying to win championships, you're not going to enjoy the process it takes to get there, and the whole thing is going to feel like it's only worth it if the team ends up winning a title.

So how did you feel about the 07/08 title? We went all in on a championship and traded young guy + picks to do it. That wasn't an organic, homegrown team. It was championship or bust through and through.

[Triplenickle]

I'm sorry, but your boy Hayward, Brad and Danny are the reason you're seeing what you're seeing right now.

I don't agree.  Hayward this year has been a low usage player who, every time he's on the court, has put in effort on defense and has tried to keep the ball moving.  He's very hesitant with respect to actually driving or scoring, but I dont' think that's the source of consternation on the team right now.

I do think that a big issue on the team is that there are several guys who think they should be getting more time and more shots, and maybe they resent Hayward for getting any minutes because he's not been much of a scorer, and they think they're better than him.

But frankly, Terry isn't better than Hayward.  He's been awful this year.  He has hurt the team far more than Hayward ever has.  Morris, lately, is in that category as well.

Hayward knows how to play team ball.  I don't think Terry really does.



Give me an adequate-not-great veteran starting point guard over Terry Rozier any day of the week.  Ricky Rubio, Darren Collison, Jeff Teague, Jeremy Lin, even DJ Augustin.  I'd happily take any of them over Terry Rozier.

It doesn't matter if he can't play the aggressive defensive style that leads to running...which is what this team WAS...and now we're some kind of weird half-court, half-trapping team with no identity or idea what they're doing or how they wanna play, or where their offense is coming from, or knowing how to stop anybody...and and and and

It's never ending because one man....screwed up the entire chemistry.

And it really isn't his fault...he shoulda been eased in...because he's not gonna be ready until next year anyway.

But if you ever wonder why most of the nation hates the Celts...it is because of things like that.

[PhoSita]

I'm more concerned about them winning championships rather than how warm & fuzzy they make me on the inside and plateauing.

Yeah, I get it. 

I just think that if you throw everything else out about team building and only care about trying to win championships, you're not going to enjoy the process it takes to get there, and the whole thing is going to feel like it's only worth it if the team ends up winning a title.

So how did you feel about the 07/08 title? We went all in on a championship and traded young guy + picks to do it. That wasn't an organic, homegrown team. It was championship or bust through and through.

At least it was a career culmination point for Pierce, who had toiled and fought as the lovable if flawed face of the team for a decade.

But really I cared a lot more about the 2010 and 2012 iterations of the team than the 08 one, even though those runs didn't end in titles.

[Bobshot]

I suspect what will happen is Ainge will deal Tatum et al for Davis, and Kyrie will extend in Boston.

Right now, I think Ainge is having doubts he can get to a championship with the present team. Hayward has turned out to be a huge albatross in terms of his max deal. The only hope is he comes back next year to the player he was in Utah. It is unlikely they can trade him, unless he's part of a package which includes a part of his salary.

The other thing that's showing right now is they are woeful up front. You can see that when  Baynes goes down. There is nobody that can guard the paint.  Part of that problem, in my view, is the over reliance on the 3P shot, and too many guys on the perimeter. The Celtics are taking too many difficult outside shots, and leaving themselves vulnerable to easier shots their opponents are getting in the paint.

That's the likely scenario, unless they find a way to beat Toronto and Milwaukee this year. And right now it doesn't look good.

[Bobshot]

[/quote]

The main reason i'm against letting Terry go is because when he was starting, it was a really good fit because they ran alot and were pretty unstoppable in transition with Tatum, Brown and even Smart who can see the lanes real well, And Al looks good on the run too. Matter fact the whole team looks entirely different running. Alot of times Terry started the run off the rebound or steal, which is the only way you CAN run except a block. Some of those teams last year had no answers for so many players being good on the run.

Brad and Danny burned that down this season, snatching something good away from those guys and putting other players ahead of them.

What you're seeing this year is not those guys fault, just a lack of vision and failure to use what they have.

Like...this is the weirdest thing I ever saw a team do. It was the start of something good, and the next year they threw Hayward in front of everyone and everything positive they started.

I didn't mention Kyrie cause he fits into that very well and actually played and was a positive last year.

I'm sorry, but your boy Hayward, Brad and Danny are the reason you're seeing what you're seeing right now.
[/quote]

I believe there is definitely something to these arguments. Stevens handled the pre-season poorly in defining his starters, and simply went with the money  the first 20 games. He should have noticed Hayward was not ready. Neither was Kyrie, for that matter, for the first couple of weeks.

Neither Ainge nor Stevens seemed to pay much attention to the chemistry they discovered with the team going down the stretch and into the playoffs.  The killer, of course, was the unexpected loss at home in game 7 to the Cavs when everything fell apart and the team looked like it has looked this year at its worst times. Like right now.

[PhoSita]

I suspect what will happen is Ainge will deal Tatum et al for Davis, and Kyrie will extend in Boston.

I agree that that is likely Plan A (and B, C, D, E, F ....)


If that's what happens, I hope for the following:

Horford is still on the team.

Smart is still on the team.

They fill out the bench with good character, defined-skillset veterans.

Examples:

Trevor Ariza (MLE?)
Demarre Carroll
Taj Gibson
Robin Lopez
Wilson Chandler (MLE?)
Iman Shumpert
Jared Dudley
Ish Smith
Pat Beverley
Thabo Sefolosha
Justin Holiday
Ed Davis
Dante Cunningham

etc.


There won't be much to work with in terms of cap.  Hopefully Danny will avoid taking on too much bad $$ from New Orleans. 

My strong feeling is a team built around Kyrie and AD would need to have a lot of established veterans who will tune out the nonsense and will know and accept their role without worrying about what Kyrie or AD, or anybody associated with Kyrie or AD, is saying in the media.

I suspect both Jaylen and Jayson will be gone along with Robert Williams and most of the team's draft picks.  That's fine, because young guys won't have much of a place on the team after an AD trade, anyway.


The question is which of Smart, Horford, and Hayward will go out the door in order to make $$ work.  As of right now it seems like it'd have to be Smart, as much as that pains me.  I can't see a team wanting to take on Hayward based on how he's played so far this year.  I can't imagine Horford would want to opt in to the last year of his deal just to get traded to New Orleans.

[mctyson]

I think this is a possible outcome, but you are slightly overrating some of the other young players on the team.

The reality is we would build around Jayson Tatum, with Brown being his side-kick and Smart being the veteran leader and captain.

[MikeB12]

I would have no problem with letting Kyrie walk and going with the young core guys. 

Since I believe this year's team will not go far in the playoffs, Danny won't have to make the decision, Kyrie will make it for him.  He won't be coming back on his own accord.

MikeB

[droopdog7]

Building around the young guys would be really dumb for a number of reasons.  First, we have ONE maybe star in Tatum and that's it.  Simply won't get it done.  Second, we'll have to pay Tatum and Brown like stars and then how do we improve?  We could perhaps hit on another draft pick but other than that, the team might be tapped out (or near it) in terms of salary cap space.

No, the move to make it the opposite and most obvious one.  Trade the young guys for Davis.  A team of Davis, Horford, Kyrie, Smart, and Hayward should compete for several years.

[droopdog7]

I guess I'm not a championship or bust kind of person. I lean towards going with the young core myself. I believe that they can develop into MUCH better players than they are today, especially if they are able to take the reins and can play unencumbered. But I know it's a risk.

That said I have no doubt whatsoever that Ainge is going to aggressively pursue AD in the offseason.

Right now though I feel like it's about a 50/50 proposition that Kyrie walks.

PhoSita states it well - on an AD/Kyrie team anything short of a championship is a disappointment and odds are they probably will fall short of that mark.

Wow, this is a pretty ridiculous perspective.  So don't try, that way you'll never be disappointed?

And hey, I am not a championship or bust guy either.  But I would much rather the team be a contender than not.  And sure, falling short is always disappointing but preferring to not be a contender so fans can enjoy low expectations (when the team could contend right now) is kinda nuts.