tobias harris to philly in 6 player deal

[LarBrd33]

To be fair, about a month ago a fellow Celtic fan downplayed Jayson Tatum (our 2nd best player) by calling him a poor man's Tobias Harris.  What's that mean if our 2nd best player is a poor man's version of Philly's 4th best player?  Just saying... it's all about perspective.

If that fan was right, we may as well blow up our team and start a rebuild. Considering though that when Harris was 20 years old in his second season he averaged 11 pts a game and shot 31% from three with as many turnovers as assists while a 19 year old Tatum carried a team to the eastern conference finals, maybe that fan should find a new hobby besides player comparisons?

That's essentially exactly what I told the guy when he made the comment:

"Tobias averaged 4.9 points as a 2nd year player. If Tatum follows Tobias' trajectory, he's going to average 80 points per game in his prime."

But he was talking about right now in the present.  Regardless, Tobias is really good.  This is a huge addition for Philly.

[fairweatherfan]

Thinking about matchups - let's say we decide to keep Smart in the lineup but promote Brown as Morris' shooting fades.  Simmons/Redick/Butler/Harris/Embiid vs Kyrie/Smart/Brown/Tatum/Horford, who guards who?

My feeling is for us:

Kyrie on Redick
Smart on Butler
Brown on Harris
Tatum on Simmons
Horford on Embiid

Man, they're big! The other way seems trickier. Something like:

Butler on Kyrie
Redick on Smart (shooter vs shooter!  )
Harris on Brown
Simmons on Tatum
Embiid on Horford

Then on the bench it's like Rozier/McConnell, Baynes/Boban, Hayward/Korkmaz I guess?, Morris/Mike Scott? The ghost of Corey Brewer?

Good post but I think Brown would be on Simmons and Tatum on Harris. I think Stevens likes Brown as an on ball defender better than Tatum and, when Philly makes Boston switch Kyrie onto Simmons handling the ball, Brown on Reddick is better than Tatum on Reddick.

Yeah the 3/4 was hardest to figure out. I haven't watched much of Harris in a while but I THINK he's a bit slower than Brown and would have some problems there on the other side too.

[Roy H.]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

[celticsclay]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

I do more or less agree with this Roy. I also feel like I am in the minority here, but I think the league has moved away from the "just get as many stars as you can and don't worry about anything else" that was all the rage because of the Heat big 3. Some of the league's rules were changed to prevent that kind of team building, and it is not as effective as it once was. The Warriors broke the mold cause of the cap spike, good timing and having Curry as a totally underpaid player due to serious injury problems early on.

If you look at the playoffs last year we were about 1 quarter of basketball away from a finals that would have featured one active all-star from last year in it...

[LarBrd33]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

Boston is going to have a chance, but it seems silly to spend the last couple months dumping on Philly for a lack of outside shooting and then scoff at them adding a guy who shoots 44% from three and has the lowest usage rates of guys who average 20+ points. 

[Roy H.]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

Boston is going to have a chance, but it seems silly to spend the last couple months dumping on Philly for a lack of outside shooting and then scoff at them adding a guy who shoots 44% from three and has the lowest usage rates of guys who average 20+ points.

I don't think people are scoffing.  They just watched last season's playoff series and this year's regular season, and feel that Harris isn't going to be the player who takes them from a second round exit to a juggernaut.

[fairweatherfan]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

BREAKING: Philly has traded Markelle Fultz for the rights to unlock Multiball

[LarBrd33]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

Boston is going to have a chance, but it seems silly to spend the last couple months dumping on Philly for a lack of outside shooting and then scoff at them adding a guy who shoots 44% from three and has the lowest usage rates of guys who average 20+ points.

I don't think people are scoffing.  They just watched last season's playoff series and this year's regular season, and feel that Harris isn't going to be the player who takes them from a second round exit to a juggernaut.

I honestly don't think last year's playoff series has any bearing on what we should expect this season.  It's borderline irrelevant.  Kudos to Boston for overachieving.  Their young guys came in prepared, hungry, and with a locked-in underdog mentality looking to disprove the consensus expectations of a Philly victory.

Philly, on the flip side, looked lost out there.  Their younth showed.  They weren't prepared.  Embiid's face mask was clearly bothering him.  Simmons (in technically his rookie season) looked overwhelmed trying to deal with Boston's defense.  I'm not convinced Coach Brown is the right guy for that team.

Add an all-star level player in Butler.

Add Tobias Harris.

Totally different team come playoff time.  Their biggest hoop right now is trying to build chemistry.  It took Boston a couple months to start figuring it out.  Philly is going to need to find out how all these pieces can fit.  But at the end of the day, this has always been a league where talent is King and Philly has 4 all-star level players playing great basketball right now.

PG - Simmons - 17 points, 9.4 rebounds, 8 assists, 1.3 steals .574/.0/.590
SG - Redick - 18.3 points, 2.8 assists, 2.2 rebounds .446/.384/.902
F - Butler - 19.5 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 2.1 steals .477/.370/.853
F - Harris - 21 points, 8 rebounds, 2.7 assists .496/.434/.877
C - Embiid - 27.4 points, 13.5 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 2 blocks .483/.299/.807

From a pure talent standpoint, they are probably the team to beat in the East unless Tatum takes a leap and Hayward turns a corner.

[Bobshot]

First reaction is he takes touches from Embiid, which may not be such a bad thing for Philly. I'm one who feels Butler hasn't changed them very much. We'll see what Harris does. He was the alpha dog in LA, and those type get plenty of touches. Not so in Philly. You really do have to play team basketball to win Championships in the NBA. Even when LeBron is on your team.

The Celtics main problem is they are stuck with Hayward, who isn't a $30M player right now. Hopefully, he'll be close to 100% next year, but until then he's an albatross. Ainge would like to have that one back. On the other hand, if he gives up half the team to get Davis, Hayward might become more important next year.

[ozgod]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

Brett Brown's going to find out how challenging it is to keep everyone happy and motivated playing with one ball.

[liam]

Sixers picked up Malachi Richardson from the Raptors? Who is this?

[Eddie20]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

Boston is going to have a chance, but it seems silly to spend the last couple months dumping on Philly for a lack of outside shooting and then scoff at them adding a guy who shoots 44% from three and has the lowest usage rates of guys who average 20+ points.

I don't think people are scoffing.  They just watched last season's playoff series and this year's regular season, and feel that Harris isn't going to be the player who takes them from a second round exit to a juggernaut.

I honestly don't think last year's playoff series has any bearing on what we should expect this season.  It's borderline irrelevant.  Kudos to Boston for overachieving.  Their young guys came in prepared, hungry, and with a locked-in underdog mentality looking to disprove the consensus expectations of a Philly victory.

Philly, on the flip side, looked lost out there.  Their younth showed.  They weren't prepared.  Embiid's face mask was clearly bothering him.  Simmons (in technically his rookie season) looked overwhelmed trying to deal with Boston's defense.  I'm not convinced Coach Brown is the right guy for that team.

Add an all-star level player in Butler.

Add Tobias Harris.

Totally different team come playoff time.  Their biggest hoop right now is trying to build chemistry.  It took Boston a couple months to start figuring it out.  Philly is going to need to find out how all these pieces can fit.  But at the end of the day, this has always been a league where talent is King and Philly has 4 all-star level players playing great basketball right now.

PG - Simmons - 17 points, 9.4 rebounds, 8 assists, 1.3 steals .574/.0/.590
SG - Redick - 18.3 points, 2.8 assists, 2.2 rebounds .446/.384/.902
F - Butler - 19.5 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 2.1 steals .477/.370/.853
F - Harris - 21 points, 8 rebounds, 2.7 assists .496/.434/.877
C - Embiid - 27.4 points, 13.5 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 2 blocks .483/.299/.807

From a pure talent standpoint, they are probably the team to beat in the East unless Tatum takes a leap and Hayward turns a corner.

Yeah, but Butler isn't averaging that. His numbers have declined slightly since the trade and is averaging 18.9 PPG, 4.8 RPG, and 3.8 APG on shooting splits of 47.9, 36.6, and 89.9. So he's not really an all-star player in Philly unless you also consider Marcus Morris all-star caliber too. Morris is averaging 14.8 PPG, 6.1 RPG, and 1.4 APG with shooting splits of 48.0, 41.4, and 87.2. Plus, Butler's numbers will continue to fall with the arrival of Harris.

As for Harris, his numbers are going to be nowhere what he was averaging in LA. He's going to have a Reggie Bullock, Wayne Ellington, Darius Miller type role where he spots up and plays off teammates. Unlike those guys that know their roles, it's uncharted territory for Harris. Harris' usage rate is currently 23.6% on 15.5 FGA per game. For comparison, Bullock has a 16.5% usage rate on 10 FGA per game. The Bullock type role is what I expect, with 10 shots per game as the ceiling.

[celticsclay]

You guys worry way too much.  They're still playing with one ball in Philly, a fact that at least two of their prominent players didn't seem to like much already.

Boston is going to have a chance, but it seems silly to spend the last couple months dumping on Philly for a lack of outside shooting and then scoff at them adding a guy who shoots 44% from three and has the lowest usage rates of guys who average 20+ points.

I don't think people are scoffing.  They just watched last season's playoff series and this year's regular season, and feel that Harris isn't going to be the player who takes them from a second round exit to a juggernaut.

I honestly don't think last year's playoff series has any bearing on what we should expect this season.  It's borderline irrelevant.  Kudos to Boston for overachieving.  Their young guys came in prepared, hungry, and with a locked-in underdog mentality looking to disprove the consensus expectations of a Philly victory.

Philly, on the flip side, looked lost out there.  Their younth showed.  They weren't prepared.  Embiid's face mask was clearly bothering him.  Simmons (in technically his rookie season) looked overwhelmed trying to deal with Boston's defense.  I'm not convinced Coach Brown is the right guy for that team.

Add an all-star level player in Butler.

Add Tobias Harris.

Totally different team come playoff time.  Their biggest hoop right now is trying to build chemistry.  It took Boston a couple months to start figuring it out.  Philly is going to need to find out how all these pieces can fit.  But at the end of the day, this has always been a league where talent is King and Philly has 4 all-star level players playing great basketball right now.

PG - Simmons - 17 points, 9.4 rebounds, 8 assists, 1.3 steals .574/.0/.590
SG - Redick - 18.3 points, 2.8 assists, 2.2 rebounds .446/.384/.902
F - Butler - 19.5 points, 4.9 rebounds, 3.9 assists, 2.1 steals .477/.370/.853
F - Harris - 21 points, 8 rebounds, 2.7 assists .496/.434/.877
C - Embiid - 27.4 points, 13.5 rebounds, 3.6 assists, 2 blocks .483/.299/.807

From a pure talent standpoint, they are probably the team to beat in the East unless Tatum takes a leap and Hayward turns a corner.

When you mention they added Butler, you should probably mention they lost Saric (who did give us issues at times) and Covington. While covington was bad against us in playoffs, he is a solid player.

At a larger level, I guess part of my thinking is, while I never thought it was going to work out this way, there was only 1 or 2% of me that got spooked of everything working out great for them. Say two years ago they end up keeping Noel and he plays really well with Embid. Saric actually does come over and be an all-star. They trade Okafor for the rights to our Brooklyn pick. They have a 7 player dynasty going all with guys 25 and under and then they sign Lebron or Geoorge or Durant.

Fast forward and they really got nothing for Okafor, nothing for Noel. It appears they got next to nothing for the number 1 pick in the draft (Fultz) and their Sacramento asset. The vaunted Lakers pick we talked about for years is now essentially a very raw rookie that has missed the season for food poisoning and a small part of Tobias Harris.

Could this team with a championship with those 4 guys and some buyouts? Absolutely, but it seems like they have now locked themselves into just another contender team and not warriors part 2. Again, I never thought it would work out that way, but I know you thought there was a good chance larbrd. Being in luxury tax with an aging cranky butler, simmons embid and harris is nothing to scoff at, but it is certainly something you can be look at and think you can reasonably beat it.

[fairweatherfan]

Sixers picked up Malachi Richardson from the Raptors? Who is this?

Syracuse guy, made his 1st round nut 3 years ago by busting up Malcolm Brogdon in a huge comeback to get to the Final 4. Been bouncing around ever since. Total stopgap at wing with some possibility of growth. Not a bad idea for them.

[CF033]

Personally, I don't think just chucking together a bunch of all-stars is necessarily going to create a great team. It may very well but personally I am not worried yet until they prove they can play as a solid team.

With three all-stars Philly is a decent team. How is it that the Celtics with just one all-star has overtaken them in the standings?

Philly may be amazing with the addition of Harris but it is by no means a lock.

Like I said unless these guys accept lesser roles overall and Butler or Harris concedes to being the third offensive option on the team there could be some malcontents in the Philly roster. And we know Butler will eventually get unhappy in a lot of situations.

It'll be interesting no doubt.