Gordon Hayward Substraction by Addition

[celticinorlando]

There's a reason why the warriors are playing cousins important minutes like tonight even though they were playing better with looney or iguodala.

Its the same reason why we are giving hayward reps.

 Come on man. Cousins justI got back from his injury any looks absolutely fantastic for a guy that's been out that long it's almost 300 lb. Hayward has had all year to get comfortable and he still looks terrible dump this guy.

It’s very shortsighted to dump a guy after half a year of playing. Seriously be patient he had his ankle practically snapped in half.

Anonymous Warriors player tells Jeff Goodman: Gordon Hayward is a "liability on both ends of court" https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/27/18199617/anonymous-warriors-player-tells-jeff-goodman-gordon-hayward-is-a-liability-on-both-ends-of-court?utm_campaign=celticsblog&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter …

What’s your point?

What's yours? You like the way his "progression" is going? You like the fact a 30 million a year guy contributes almost nothing out there? You seem to be beating the drum that Hayward is just fine...

Where did I say that he’s fine? This was going to be a recovery year for Hayward. The guy had his ankle snapped in half and was lucky it was a clean break. He also had another surgery which set him back a bit. This is going to be a long process which can only be remedied by playing Hayward.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

What is the bottom line though. Nobody cares about the process. He is killing the team, and his 30 million looks terrible. I dont care about the excuse of the injury anymore. He reeks, he needs to be benched, not played through.

And I like Hayward and his game, but he looks done at this moment.

Oh so a castostrophic injury is an excuse?

The injury is not an excuse for what is happenning. I am not blaming Hayward for anything in terms of the injury. I am telling you what the bottom line is, which is that he is killing the team.

Many of you fans want to give him a pass, or an excuse. That is fine, the excuse is fine too, but the reality is that he either should not be playing or should be shut down for a little bit more.

This is correct. The injury was bad but now the Cs are faced with the reality of how to win a title with him playing so poorly.

They need Hayward to contribute on offense. I hope it happens but don't think it will this season.

[rondofan1255]

instead of trading him

reduce his minutes even more or
sit him out often for injury load management - see Kawhi recently or even Tony Parker

[Rondo9]

There's a reason why the warriors are playing cousins important minutes like tonight even though they were playing better with looney or iguodala.

Its the same reason why we are giving hayward reps.

 Come on man. Cousins justI got back from his injury any looks absolutely fantastic for a guy that's been out that long it's almost 300 lb. Hayward has had all year to get comfortable and he still looks terrible dump this guy.

It’s very shortsighted to dump a guy after half a year of playing. Seriously be patient he had his ankle practically snapped in half.

Anonymous Warriors player tells Jeff Goodman: Gordon Hayward is a "liability on both ends of court" https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/27/18199617/anonymous-warriors-player-tells-jeff-goodman-gordon-hayward-is-a-liability-on-both-ends-of-court?utm_campaign=celticsblog&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter …

What’s your point?

What's yours? You like the way his "progression" is going? You like the fact a 30 million a year guy contributes almost nothing out there? You seem to be beating the drum that Hayward is just fine...

Where did I say that he’s fine? This was going to be a recovery year for Hayward. The guy had his ankle snapped in half and was lucky it was a clean break. He also had another surgery which set him back a bit. This is going to be a long process which can only be remedied by playing Hayward.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

What is the bottom line though. Nobody cares about the process. He is killing the team, and his 30 million looks terrible. I dont care about the excuse of the injury anymore. He reeks, he needs to be benched, not played through.

And I like Hayward and his game, but he looks done at this moment.

Oh so a castostrophic injury is an excuse?

The injury is not an excuse for what is happenning. I am not blaming Hayward for anything in terms of the injury. I am telling you what the bottom line is, which is that he is killing the team.

Many of you fans want to give him a pass, or an excuse. That is fine, the excuse is fine too, but the reality is that he either should not be playing or should be shut down for a little bit more.

The Celtics won 6 of their last 7 games and are 31-19 how’s he “killing” the team?

[Fafnir]

He's been pretty bad in January for whatever reason after being okay for most of December.

I think his minutes are going to keep sliding down unless he starts to make progress, but no matter what he's still going to get around 20 MPG over Semi or extending the starters much for the rest of the regular season.

[10610786d]

He's been pretty bad in January for whatever reason after being okay for most of December.

I think his minutes are going to keep sliding down unless he starts to make progress, but no matter what he's still going to get around 20 MPG over Semi or extending the starters much for the rest of the regular season.

might be because he had a kid

[Silky]

There's a reason why the warriors are playing cousins important minutes like tonight even though they were playing better with looney or iguodala.

Its the same reason why we are giving hayward reps.

 Come on man. Cousins justI got back from his injury any looks absolutely fantastic for a guy that's been out that long it's almost 300 lb. Hayward has had all year to get comfortable and he still looks terrible dump this guy.

It’s very shortsighted to dump a guy after half a year of playing. Seriously be patient he had his ankle practically snapped in half.

Anonymous Warriors player tells Jeff Goodman: Gordon Hayward is a "liability on both ends of court" https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/27/18199617/anonymous-warriors-player-tells-jeff-goodman-gordon-hayward-is-a-liability-on-both-ends-of-court?utm_campaign=celticsblog&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter …

What’s your point?

What's yours? You like the way his "progression" is going? You like the fact a 30 million a year guy contributes almost nothing out there? You seem to be beating the drum that Hayward is just fine...

Where did I say that he’s fine? This was going to be a recovery year for Hayward. The guy had his ankle snapped in half and was lucky it was a clean break. He also had another surgery which set him back a bit. This is going to be a long process which can only be remedied by playing Hayward.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

What is the bottom line though. Nobody cares about the process. He is killing the team, and his 30 million looks terrible. I dont care about the excuse of the injury anymore. He reeks, he needs to be benched, not played through.

And I like Hayward and his game, but he looks done at this moment.

Oh so a castostrophic injury is an excuse?

The injury is not an excuse for what is happenning. I am not blaming Hayward for anything in terms of the injury. I am telling you what the bottom line is, which is that he is killing the team.

Many of you fans want to give him a pass, or an excuse. That is fine, the excuse is fine too, but the reality is that he either should not be playing or should be shut down for a little bit more.

The Celtics won 6 of their last 7 games and are 31-19 how’s he “killing” the team?

17-15 with Gordon playing over 24 minutes.
4-1 without gordon
10-4 with Gordon playing less than 24 minutes.

[Donoghus]

There's a reason why the warriors are playing cousins important minutes like tonight even though they were playing better with looney or iguodala.

Its the same reason why we are giving hayward reps.

 Come on man. Cousins justI got back from his injury any looks absolutely fantastic for a guy that's been out that long it's almost 300 lb. Hayward has had all year to get comfortable and he still looks terrible dump this guy.

It’s very shortsighted to dump a guy after half a year of playing. Seriously be patient he had his ankle practically snapped in half.

Anonymous Warriors player tells Jeff Goodman: Gordon Hayward is a "liability on both ends of court" https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/27/18199617/anonymous-warriors-player-tells-jeff-goodman-gordon-hayward-is-a-liability-on-both-ends-of-court?utm_campaign=celticsblog&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter …

What’s your point?

What's yours? You like the way his "progression" is going? You like the fact a 30 million a year guy contributes almost nothing out there? You seem to be beating the drum that Hayward is just fine...

Where did I say that he’s fine? This was going to be a recovery year for Hayward. The guy had his ankle snapped in half and was lucky it was a clean break. He also had another surgery which set him back a bit. This is going to be a long process which can only be remedied by playing Hayward.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

What is the bottom line though. Nobody cares about the process. He is killing the team, and his 30 million looks terrible. I dont care about the excuse of the injury anymore. He reeks, he needs to be benched, not played through.

And I like Hayward and his game, but he looks done at this moment.

Oh so a castostrophic injury is an excuse?

The injury is not an excuse for what is happenning. I am not blaming Hayward for anything in terms of the injury. I am telling you what the bottom line is, which is that he is killing the team.

Many of you fans want to give him a pass, or an excuse. That is fine, the excuse is fine too, but the reality is that he either should not be playing or should be shut down for a little bit more.

The Celtics won 6 of their last 7 games and are 31-19 how’s he “killing” the team?

17-15 with Gordon playing over 24 minutes.
4-1 without gordon
10-4 with Gordon playing less than 24 minutes.

And what exactly do you extrapolate from those numbers?

[RodyTur10]

There's a reason why the warriors are playing cousins important minutes like tonight even though they were playing better with looney or iguodala.

Its the same reason why we are giving hayward reps.

 Come on man. Cousins justI got back from his injury any looks absolutely fantastic for a guy that's been out that long it's almost 300 lb. Hayward has had all year to get comfortable and he still looks terrible dump this guy.

It’s very shortsighted to dump a guy after half a year of playing. Seriously be patient he had his ankle practically snapped in half.

Anonymous Warriors player tells Jeff Goodman: Gordon Hayward is a "liability on both ends of court" https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/27/18199617/anonymous-warriors-player-tells-jeff-goodman-gordon-hayward-is-a-liability-on-both-ends-of-court?utm_campaign=celticsblog&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter …

What’s your point?

What's yours? You like the way his "progression" is going? You like the fact a 30 million a year guy contributes almost nothing out there? You seem to be beating the drum that Hayward is just fine...

Where did I say that he’s fine? This was going to be a recovery year for Hayward. The guy had his ankle snapped in half and was lucky it was a clean break. He also had another surgery which set him back a bit. This is going to be a long process which can only be remedied by playing Hayward.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

What is the bottom line though. Nobody cares about the process. He is killing the team, and his 30 million looks terrible. I dont care about the excuse of the injury anymore. He reeks, he needs to be benched, not played through.

And I like Hayward and his game, but he looks done at this moment.

Oh so a castostrophic injury is an excuse?

The injury is not an excuse for what is happenning. I am not blaming Hayward for anything in terms of the injury. I am telling you what the bottom line is, which is that he is killing the team.

Many of you fans want to give him a pass, or an excuse. That is fine, the excuse is fine too, but the reality is that he either should not be playing or should be shut down for a little bit more.

The Celtics won 6 of their last 7 games and are 31-19 how’s he “killing” the team?

The insertion of Hayward in to the rotation (and in particular in the starting line-up, at the start of the season) has messed up a lot of chemistry. All these guys (Hayward included) started questioning their roles within in the team and how to adjust. It's not all Hayward's fault by the way, even if he would have been fully healthy and in rhytm the fit would be difficult. The Celtics just never needed Hayward. But he's on the payroll, so they have to try to find some kind of role for him. Especially at the beginning of the season this costed us a lot of games.

I believe the Celtics would have been right up there competing with the Bucks and the Raptors for the #1 seed without Hayward. I think that Stevens deserves blame for this as well. He shouldn't have aborded the line-up that was so good last year. Stevens treated Hayward like he was a superstar, who didn't need to earn his minutes. That kind of favourism doesn't sit well with guys like Rozier, Brown or Tatum.

If Hayward can find a way to get his confidence back and be a consistent contributor, the situation next year can be a lot better for him (with possibly Tatum or Brown (trade) and Morris (too expensive) leaving).

[PhoSita]

Do the people hating on Hayward not watch the games?

Serious question.

Last night against the Nets, I thought he was really good, despite not hitting shots.

He moves without the ball, keeps the ball moving, finds other guys with nifty passes, stays in front of guards and wings alike, rebounds, competes for loose balls ...

His inconsistent and at times tentative scoring is an issue, but he's doing good things out there.



I'm curious what the overlap is between people who think Rozier is really good and people who think Hayward is terrible and shouldn't play.

[Silky]

There's a reason why the warriors are playing cousins important minutes like tonight even though they were playing better with looney or iguodala.

Its the same reason why we are giving hayward reps.

 Come on man. Cousins justI got back from his injury any looks absolutely fantastic for a guy that's been out that long it's almost 300 lb. Hayward has had all year to get comfortable and he still looks terrible dump this guy.

It’s very shortsighted to dump a guy after half a year of playing. Seriously be patient he had his ankle practically snapped in half.

Anonymous Warriors player tells Jeff Goodman: Gordon Hayward is a "liability on both ends of court" https://www.celticsblog.com/2019/1/27/18199617/anonymous-warriors-player-tells-jeff-goodman-gordon-hayward-is-a-liability-on-both-ends-of-court?utm_campaign=celticsblog&utm_content=chorus&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter …

What’s your point?

What's yours? You like the way his "progression" is going? You like the fact a 30 million a year guy contributes almost nothing out there? You seem to be beating the drum that Hayward is just fine...

Where did I say that he’s fine? This was going to be a recovery year for Hayward. The guy had his ankle snapped in half and was lucky it was a clean break. He also had another surgery which set him back a bit. This is going to be a long process which can only be remedied by playing Hayward.

Please don’t put words in my mouth.

What is the bottom line though. Nobody cares about the process. He is killing the team, and his 30 million looks terrible. I dont care about the excuse of the injury anymore. He reeks, he needs to be benched, not played through.

And I like Hayward and his game, but he looks done at this moment.

Oh so a castostrophic injury is an excuse?

The injury is not an excuse for what is happenning. I am not blaming Hayward for anything in terms of the injury. I am telling you what the bottom line is, which is that he is killing the team.

Many of you fans want to give him a pass, or an excuse. That is fine, the excuse is fine too, but the reality is that he either should not be playing or should be shut down for a little bit more.

The Celtics won 6 of their last 7 games and are 31-19 how’s he “killing” the team?

17-15 with Gordon playing over 24 minutes.
4-1 without gordon
10-4 with Gordon playing less than 24 minutes.

And what exactly do you extrapolate from those numbers?

uhhh, that , more gordon equals fewer wins. thought that was pretty apparent.

further more just take a quick look at the gamelogs, in games gordon has played less than 24 minutes Brown/Tatum/Rozier have, either all/some of them, had better than their averages games. Which implies that Gordon detracts from each of their effectiveness'

[Silky]

Do the people hating on Hayward not watch the games?

Serious question.

Last night against the Nets, I thought he was really good, despite not hitting shots.

He moves without the ball, keeps the ball moving, finds other guys with nifty passes, stays in front of guards and wings alike, rebounds, competes for loose balls ...

His inconsistent and at times tentative scoring is an issue, but he's doing good things out there.



I'm curious what the overlap is between people who think Rozier is really good and people who think Hayward is terrible and shouldn't play.

Hayward is a liability on Defense.

Yeah he moves without the ball, he is smart, but that isn't worth much in the grans scheme of things if when he receives a pass off a cut he either throws it back out to an out of position player or bricks the shot.

He rebounds in there defensively, as long as the lane isnt cluttered.

[PhoSita]

I mean, I'm obviously not going to convince you, but I just don't agree with your take on this.

Hayward's lack of scoring is an issue, but he provides a lot of value in other areas.  He adds things that this team is severely lacking on the bench unit.

The body of work over the course of the season so far doesn't support the notion that Hayward has no hope of getting back to where he was in the past.

To be clear, I'm not saying he's been great or that he should be starting and playing big minutes.  At best he's a decent reserve glue guy.  On a really great team he'd be lucky to get spot minutes.  He's providing far less than what I hoped he would be providing at this point.  But I also think those hopes were overly optimistic.  Easy to say in hindsight, of course.

I suspect this is a situation where it feels good for some folks to really rail on Hayward because he's come to represent the way that the team is falling short of pre-season expectations.

I also suspect his history with Brad Stevens combined with his rep as a video game kid and his large contract makes him an especially satisfying target for haters.


That doesn't validate the notion that he's a net negative on the court, despite his struggles.

[Silky]

That doesn't validate the notion that he's a net negative on the court, despite his struggles.

Statistics validate that he is a net negative on the court.

[PhoSita]

That doesn't validate the notion that he's a net negative on the court, despite his struggles.

Statistics validate that he is a net negative on the court.

Some of them do, that's true.  I think there are confounding variables with things like RPM, for example.

I don't think it's as easy as saying that he's always a positive or always a negative, either.


There are some games where he looks like his old self (e.g. Minnesota).

There are other games where he really struggles to score but does a lot of good things out there that help the team (e.g. last night against the Nets).

There are other games where the team could really use his help and he doesn't provide much (e.g. against the Warriors).


That kind of inconsistency is frustrating.  It means he can't be more than a lesser supporting player if this team wants to do good things this year.  It's also completely within the realm of what you'd expect to see from a player recovering from a major injury.

[RodyTur10]

Do the people hating on Hayward not watch the games?

Serious question.

Last night against the Nets, I thought he was really good, despite not hitting shots.

He moves without the ball, keeps the ball moving, finds other guys with nifty passes, stays in front of guards and wings alike, rebounds, competes for loose balls ...

His inconsistent and at times tentative scoring is an issue, but he's doing good things out there.

I'm curious what the overlap is between people who think Rozier is really good and people who think Hayward is terrible and shouldn't play.

I don't think Rozier is really good at all. In fact I want Rozier out of the rotation and give those minutes to Brown and Hayward. I see that Hayward does some good things out there and a lot of his teammates could learn something from him sharing the ball. But his lack of confidence in driving to the hoop with the goal to finish is sad to watch.