What Should Constitute an NBA Rookie?

[celticsclay]

There are pretty compelling arguments for both sides in the other thread; however, if the G-League started to take on more of a MLB minor league system look, I would without hesitation choose option #1 since all teams would be on the same footing of drafting and bringing up players when they felt they were ready.

Why don't you think teams are on the same footing now?  All teams can decide when, where and how to play their young players.

I was specifically speaking to the Rookie of the Year award in reference to injured future superstars - like Simmons/Griffin. Of course teams can decide to send a player to the G-League for the entire season if they so choose (obviously most teams would rather play their high draft pick) so I guess it doesn't really effect them; however, a player like Simmons stands to make a lot of money if he wins the award. This might be considered 'unfair' to a player like Mitchell who didn't have the same advantages Simmons did.

How does Simmons, or anyone, make a lot of money from winning ROY?  He's on a rookie scale contract.  His NBA salary is set.

For somone that follows the 76ers as close as you I am honestly pretty shocked you don't know this. He has a huge bonus in one of his endorsements for winning it. Most 76ers fans suspect it is part of the reason he didn't play the last month of last season when he was fully healthy (that and tanking).

I have little interest in endorsements or sneaker deals.  Have you actually seen any actual reporting on that huge endorsement bonus or is it just fan rumors?  Bringing Simmons back late last season after Embiid was lost for the season would have been a stupid move by the Sixers.

yea its not speculation. He really has the clause
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2016/06/08/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Simmons-Nike.aspx

Tazz I don't disagree with you that it wasn't beneficial for the 76ers do it last year. I do object to people just making up reasons for why it happened when there are a lot of different possibilities (and all of them probably played a role).

Assuming that article is accurate, we know that if there is a bonus with Nike it is no more than 1 million dollars because the Nike incentives were less than Adidas and the Adidas bonus was 1 million dollars with a rollover (and his Nike deal clearly doesn't have the rollover portion).  The article you posted as well as the yahoo story it quotes, don't actually confirm he has any bonus in his Nike contract related to the R.O.Y. award, though.  The numbers they use are clearly related to the Adidas contract he turned down, but even assuming there is a million dollar bonus, which isn't chump change, it isn't exactly this gigantic bonus that people have been making it out to be either.

What is made clear is that Ben Simmons turned down a lot more money from Adidas to sign with Nike, which sort of implies it isn't a money issue for him.

Of course that assumes any of that is accurate, which is always a big assumption.  There are other articles which say his Nike contract is worth 20 million and Adidas was offering a similar amount, so who knows what is and is not accurate and what, if any, bonuses are included.

Its pretty commonly accepted that his contract has some sort of Rookie of the Year bonus.

"On June 6, Simmons signed a five-year, guaranteed $20 million contract with Nike, multiple people with direct knowledge of the deal told USA TODAY Sports. They requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the contract.

The deal also includes bonuses that will push the value above $20 million. Some bonuses are achievable with solid efforts such as All-Rookie team and Rookie of the Year, and some, such as first-team All-NBA and MVP, are difficult to attain."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2016/06/28/nike-shoe-contract-no-1-pick-ben-simmons/86491236/

I really don't get all the mental gymnastics you are going through to try and downplay that Simmons could have played a few games a the end of last season but didn't for a lot of factors including the 76ers tank and his bonus and potential injury risk and nobody has any idea how much each factor played. I'll also add that 1 million dollars is very steep price to play for playing in 6-7 games especially considering he is on a rookie contract. Most player bonuses we see are 200k, 500k for an entire year in different sports. 1 million for 6 or 7 games when the guy makes 6.5 million for the entire season is huge. I'm pretty sure Simmons doesn't just lose a million dollars as a 20 year old and think, meh...I make a lot. 

[mmmmm]

Eh, keep it the way it is.   First season you actually play in the NBA is your NBA Rookie season.

Any other definition is going to end up just as arbitrary and with the same sort of arguments.

It doesn't really matter in the long run anyway.

[Moranis]

There are pretty compelling arguments for both sides in the other thread; however, if the G-League started to take on more of a MLB minor league system look, I would without hesitation choose option #1 since all teams would be on the same footing of drafting and bringing up players when they felt they were ready.

Why don't you think teams are on the same footing now?  All teams can decide when, where and how to play their young players.

I was specifically speaking to the Rookie of the Year award in reference to injured future superstars - like Simmons/Griffin. Of course teams can decide to send a player to the G-League for the entire season if they so choose (obviously most teams would rather play their high draft pick) so I guess it doesn't really effect them; however, a player like Simmons stands to make a lot of money if he wins the award. This might be considered 'unfair' to a player like Mitchell who didn't have the same advantages Simmons did.

How does Simmons, or anyone, make a lot of money from winning ROY?  He's on a rookie scale contract.  His NBA salary is set.

For somone that follows the 76ers as close as you I am honestly pretty shocked you don't know this. He has a huge bonus in one of his endorsements for winning it. Most 76ers fans suspect it is part of the reason he didn't play the last month of last season when he was fully healthy (that and tanking).

I have little interest in endorsements or sneaker deals.  Have you actually seen any actual reporting on that huge endorsement bonus or is it just fan rumors?  Bringing Simmons back late last season after Embiid was lost for the season would have been a stupid move by the Sixers.

yea its not speculation. He really has the clause
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2016/06/08/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Simmons-Nike.aspx

Tazz I don't disagree with you that it wasn't beneficial for the 76ers do it last year. I do object to people just making up reasons for why it happened when there are a lot of different possibilities (and all of them probably played a role).

Assuming that article is accurate, we know that if there is a bonus with Nike it is no more than 1 million dollars because the Nike incentives were less than Adidas and the Adidas bonus was 1 million dollars with a rollover (and his Nike deal clearly doesn't have the rollover portion).  The article you posted as well as the yahoo story it quotes, don't actually confirm he has any bonus in his Nike contract related to the R.O.Y. award, though.  The numbers they use are clearly related to the Adidas contract he turned down, but even assuming there is a million dollar bonus, which isn't chump change, it isn't exactly this gigantic bonus that people have been making it out to be either.

What is made clear is that Ben Simmons turned down a lot more money from Adidas to sign with Nike, which sort of implies it isn't a money issue for him.

Of course that assumes any of that is accurate, which is always a big assumption.  There are other articles which say his Nike contract is worth 20 million and Adidas was offering a similar amount, so who knows what is and is not accurate and what, if any, bonuses are included.

Its pretty commonly accepted that his contract has some sort of Rookie of the Year bonus.

"On June 6, Simmons signed a five-year, guaranteed $20 million contract with Nike, multiple people with direct knowledge of the deal told USA TODAY Sports. They requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the contract.

The deal also includes bonuses that will push the value above $20 million. Some bonuses are achievable with solid efforts such as All-Rookie team and Rookie of the Year, and some, such as first-team All-NBA and MVP, are difficult to attain."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2016/06/28/nike-shoe-contract-no-1-pick-ben-simmons/86491236/

I really don't get all the mental gymnastics you are going through to try and downplay that Simmons could have played a few games a the end of last season but didn't for a lot of factors including the 76ers tank and his bonus and potential injury risk and nobody has any idea how much each factor played. I'll also add that 1 million dollars is very steep price to play for playing in 6-7 games especially considering he is on a rookie contract. Most player bonuses we see are 200k, 500k for an entire year in different sports. 1 million for 6 or 7 games when the guy makes 6.5 million for the entire season is huge. I'm pretty sure Simmons doesn't just lose a million dollars as a 20 year old and think, meh...I make a lot.

I was mentioning that article in my prior post which has vastly different numbers than the article you posted. The one you posted said the Adidas contract was worth a lot more than a million more than his Nike deal.  If he was worried about money why would he take way less to sign with nike and not just sign with Adidas.  And a million dollars when your contract is worth 20 million again while not chump change isn't some massive bonus.

And here's the thing. If the Sixers medically cleared him and he refused to play they could have fined him l, suspended him, etc.  Simmons didn't play because he wasn't healthy enough to do so especially in a  lost season.

[Csfan1984]

It's a tough one but the league should probably go to draft class from now on. I give the example, if a guy never gets in a game his first year is he still a rookie the next year? A lot of people would be conflicted on that but that's what happened with Simmons by the last month of his draft class rookie year being healthy. Can we just reward guys for do-over starts?

[Big333223]

Being around a pro team and getting another year to mature is undoubtedly a benefit to a players rookie season but I don't see why that should disqualify or have any bearing at all on whether or not he's a rookie.

Steph Curry and Luke Walton had fathers who were NBA players and grew up around NBA teams and coaches. Having that kind of access was certainly a benefit, to some degree, to how they learned the game. But we're not going to count parentage in who we consider to be a rookie.

Some guys grow up playing basketball. Then there are some that find the game later. Does having a longer history of learning the game benefit one more than the other? What about a rookie who is 22 rather than 19? Surely being older and more physically mature is a benefit.

If you haven't played an NBA game, you're an NBA rookie. I don't see any reason to change something that simple.

[celticsclay]

There are pretty compelling arguments for both sides in the other thread; however, if the G-League started to take on more of a MLB minor league system look, I would without hesitation choose option #1 since all teams would be on the same footing of drafting and bringing up players when they felt they were ready.

Why don't you think teams are on the same footing now?  All teams can decide when, where and how to play their young players.

I was specifically speaking to the Rookie of the Year award in reference to injured future superstars - like Simmons/Griffin. Of course teams can decide to send a player to the G-League for the entire season if they so choose (obviously most teams would rather play their high draft pick) so I guess it doesn't really effect them; however, a player like Simmons stands to make a lot of money if he wins the award. This might be considered 'unfair' to a player like Mitchell who didn't have the same advantages Simmons did.

How does Simmons, or anyone, make a lot of money from winning ROY?  He's on a rookie scale contract.  His NBA salary is set.

For somone that follows the 76ers as close as you I am honestly pretty shocked you don't know this. He has a huge bonus in one of his endorsements for winning it. Most 76ers fans suspect it is part of the reason he didn't play the last month of last season when he was fully healthy (that and tanking).

I have little interest in endorsements or sneaker deals.  Have you actually seen any actual reporting on that huge endorsement bonus or is it just fan rumors?  Bringing Simmons back late last season after Embiid was lost for the season would have been a stupid move by the Sixers.

yea its not speculation. He really has the clause
https://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/2016/06/08/Marketing-and-Sponsorship/Simmons-Nike.aspx

Tazz I don't disagree with you that it wasn't beneficial for the 76ers do it last year. I do object to people just making up reasons for why it happened when there are a lot of different possibilities (and all of them probably played a role).

Assuming that article is accurate, we know that if there is a bonus with Nike it is no more than 1 million dollars because the Nike incentives were less than Adidas and the Adidas bonus was 1 million dollars with a rollover (and his Nike deal clearly doesn't have the rollover portion).  The article you posted as well as the yahoo story it quotes, don't actually confirm he has any bonus in his Nike contract related to the R.O.Y. award, though.  The numbers they use are clearly related to the Adidas contract he turned down, but even assuming there is a million dollar bonus, which isn't chump change, it isn't exactly this gigantic bonus that people have been making it out to be either.

What is made clear is that Ben Simmons turned down a lot more money from Adidas to sign with Nike, which sort of implies it isn't a money issue for him.

Of course that assumes any of that is accurate, which is always a big assumption.  There are other articles which say his Nike contract is worth 20 million and Adidas was offering a similar amount, so who knows what is and is not accurate and what, if any, bonuses are included.

Its pretty commonly accepted that his contract has some sort of Rookie of the Year bonus.

"On June 6, Simmons signed a five-year, guaranteed $20 million contract with Nike, multiple people with direct knowledge of the deal told USA TODAY Sports. They requested anonymity because they were not authorized to speak publicly about the contract.

The deal also includes bonuses that will push the value above $20 million. Some bonuses are achievable with solid efforts such as All-Rookie team and Rookie of the Year, and some, such as first-team All-NBA and MVP, are difficult to attain."

https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/nba/2016/06/28/nike-shoe-contract-no-1-pick-ben-simmons/86491236/

I really don't get all the mental gymnastics you are going through to try and downplay that Simmons could have played a few games a the end of last season but didn't for a lot of factors including the 76ers tank and his bonus and potential injury risk and nobody has any idea how much each factor played. I'll also add that 1 million dollars is very steep price to play for playing in 6-7 games especially considering he is on a rookie contract. Most player bonuses we see are 200k, 500k for an entire year in different sports. 1 million for 6 or 7 games when the guy makes 6.5 million for the entire season is huge. I'm pretty sure Simmons doesn't just lose a million dollars as a 20 year old and think, meh...I make a lot.

I was mentioning that article in my prior post which has vastly different numbers than the article you posted. The one you posted said the Adidas contract was worth a lot more than a million more than his Nike deal.  If he was worried about money why would he take way less to sign with nike and not just sign with Adidas.  And a million dollars when your contract is worth 20 million again while not chump change isn't some massive bonus.

And here's the thing. If the Sixers medically cleared him and he refused to play they could have fined him l, suspended him, etc.  Simmons didn't play because he wasn't healthy enough to do so especially in a  lost season.

again you are making up stuff and trying to make things black and white. Nobody in this entire thread said he refused to play when he was asked. I've pointed out repeatedly that it was mutually beneficial. So they are not asking him to tank and he is not asking to play cause it benefits him very well financially. We've seen many many players push to get on the court after injury including isiah Thomas this year. Stop acting like you know everything that happened here when nobody does. It's incredibly obnoxious

[Csfan1984]

Easy way to settle this is the contract technically. If he isn't contracted then it isn't his rookie year. If he is contracted and he is using up his first year by team and NBA perspective that is indeed his rookie year. Unless the team gets a "spot call up"/ "we own your rights an additional year" that is a guys rookie year in my book from now on.

[ImShakHeIsShaq]

Let's just say a player can't play for 4 straight seasons (embiid missed 2-3 seasons, right?) but then he blows up in his 5th year, he's a rookie? well then they need to give the owners another 4 seasons of his rookie contract. you win the rookie of the year but your team could lose you the next season because you blew up and the rookie deal is up now they have to pay you big money or you leave, well that next season you turn out to play average ball. like maybe you play like tyreke evans rookie season (5th season), then like evans after that the next season (6th and paid). your team is penalized because it had to pay you before it had a chance to see if you were the real deal or tyreke evans.

[jambr380]

Easy way to settle this is the contract technically. If he isn't contracted then it isn't his rookie year. If he is contracted and he is using up his first year by team and NBA perspective that is indeed his rookie year. Unless the team gets a "spot call up"/ "we own your rights an additional year" that is a guys rookie year in my book from now on.

This is kind-of what I was referring to on the first page and where the 'minor league' argument might come into play.

So you would still designate the 'rookie' label to a player who was drafted one year and played in another professional league before becoming a member of the NBA (again, the Saric example)? Should there be a difference between owning a player's rights and when his actual contract begins?

[SparzWizard]

NBA Rookie should be considered by draft class lol!

So if you are drafted in 2016 then you compete with the 2016 group for that award. Not a 2016 player competing with a 2017 group.

If you got injured that whole season then oh well! There could be other awards for that, though.

[smokeablount]

Easy way to settle this is the contract technically. If he isn't contracted then it isn't his rookie year. If he is contracted and he is using up his first year by team and NBA perspective that is indeed his rookie year. Unless the team gets a "spot call up"/ "we own your rights an additional year" that is a guys rookie year in my book from now on.

Exactly this.

[Ogaju]

If you are under contract, whether you play or not, that should be your rookie year.  Imagine if Simmons pulled a Hayward, injured 5 minutes in, then he would not be a rookie, but if injured in last pre-season game, he's a rookie.  Doesn't make sense.

TP best post on the subject....the contract should govern ....your rookie year starts the year your contract starts. If you are in the second year of your contract you are not a rookie. Injuries are part of the game unfortunately. If you are injured in your rookie year it doesn't change the fact that it is your rookie year.

[tazzmaniac]

If you are under contract, whether you play or not, that should be your rookie year.  Imagine if Simmons pulled a Hayward, injured 5 minutes in, then he would not be a rookie, but if injured in last pre-season game, he's a rookie.  Doesn't make sense.

No need to imagine.  Julius Randle was hurt in his 1st regular season game and Blake Griffin was injured in the last preseason game.  Their next seasons Randle wasn't eligible for ROY but Griffin was.  There was no huge uproar about it.  The NBA could have chosen to change the ROY eligibility rules but didn't. 

[bdm860]

I can't believe so many C's fans think Larry Bird didn't deserve his ROY award.

[bopna]

I can't believe so many C's fans think Larry Bird didn't deserve his ROY award.

Different era and circumstances.
Bird was drafted early but stayed in school and did not travel or did not have the priveledges that Simmons or Griffn had when they were with the team for the whole year.

Bird's first year was legitimately his rookie yr..

Simmons, Embiid, Griffin were pseudo rookies in their first year.