What Should Constitute an NBA Rookie?

[Moranis]

I don't quite understand why this matters. Are folks that hellbent about a wallflower award that doesn't mean anything?

Probably.  People debate MVPs for decades after they are awarded.

MVP is a lot more meaningful.  It is a significant part of a players legacy if they win it.  It also is a criteria for eligibility for designated rookie and veteran extensions.  ROY is a footnote that rarely comes up in discussions.  It generally goes to rookies on bad teams because they get the playing time.  It doesn't indicate future success.  MCW won ROY.  Enough said.

Rose won a MVP also (and ROY).  If you look at the ROY winners since, let's just say Pau Gasol in 01-02 you can break them down into a few categories:

No question HOFers
Gasol, James, Paul, Durant

Likely HOFers (or at the very least multiple AS)
Stoudemire, Griffin, Irving, Lillard

Injury derailments:
Okafor, Roy, Rose

Too early, but look like at least AS
Wiggins, Towns

The never lived up to (or will live up to) potential
Evans, Carter-Williams

Then you have Brogdon, who won in the worst rookie class probably ever.

if you go back further similar patterns and percentages hold.

[smokeablount]

I don't quite understand why this matters. Are folks that hellbent about a wallflower award that doesn't mean anything?

Probably.  People debate MVPs for decades after they are awarded.

MVP is a lot more meaningful.  It is a significant part of a players legacy if they win it.  It also is a criteria for eligibility for designated rookie and veteran extensions.  ROY is a footnote that rarely comes up in discussions.  It generally goes to rookies on bad teams because they get the playing time.  It doesn't indicate future success.  MCW won ROY.  Enough said.

What this implies is that like Koz, you don't understand why people debate things like ROY awards and things that aren't ultimately terribly meaningful... yet you have thousands of posts on an internet message board for Celtics fans that ultimately know very little compared to the top NBA thought leaders.

This doesn't add up.  But then again, every time I posed a question to you in the Tatum thread, 5+ times, you ducked them like a witness taking the 5th.  Why are you responding to me yet again after ignoring 90% of the content of my argument?

[smokeablount]

I don't quite understand why this matters. Are folks that hellbent about a wallflower award that doesn't mean anything?

Probably.  People debate MVPs for decades after they are awarded.

MVP is a lot more meaningful.  It is a significant part of a players legacy if they win it.  It also is a criteria for eligibility for designated rookie and veteran extensions.  ROY is a footnote that rarely comes up in discussions.  It generally goes to rookies on bad teams because they get the playing time.  It doesn't indicate future success.  MCW won ROY.  Enough said.

Rose won a MVP also (and ROY).  If you look at the ROY winners since, let's just say Pau Gasol in 01-02 you can break them down into a few categories:

No question HOFers
Gasol, James, Paul, Durant

Likely HOFers (or at the very least multiple AS)
Stoudemire, Griffin, Irving, Lillard

Injury derailments:
Okafor, Roy, Rose

Too early, but look like at least AS
Wiggins, Towns

The never lived up to (or will live up to) potential
Evans, Carter-Williams

Then you have Brogdon, who won in the worst rookie class probably ever.

if you go back further similar patterns and percentages hold.

A few years back, I did an analysis for my own interest, going back to Bill Russell's times that correlated NBA awards / media voting to advanced statistics (often applied retroactively) up until the times of Steve Nash winning his MVPs.

If you stand behind the advanced stats, it looks a lot like award voting during (at a minimum) civil rights times reflects racism.  And then you have Steve Nash winning 2 MVPs while being a liability on one side of the ball, and Jordan only winning 5 MVPs.  Steve Nash has 40% of the MVP awards as Michael Jordan, and I believe as many as Shaq and Kobe combined. 

MVP voting only determines the legacies of players in the eyes of either the lazy, or those who won't / can't think for themselves.  Unfortunately, that's most of the national basketball audience. 

[Big333223]

For those who think it should a rookie should be determined by their draft class, does that mean Dario Saric would never have had a rookie season?

No, because his rookie season was his first with an NBA team.  Euros who stay overseas can't be held to draft class, but guys like Simmons, Griffin and Embiid can, like Androslav mentioned.

It sounds like you're saying Simmons shouldn't be eligible for rookie of the year because it's an unfair advantage to be around an NBA team for a year before playing. Is it not also an unfair advantage for Dario Saric to play professional basketball for years overseas and be older than someone drafted after one year of college in America? Why does one thing matter and the other doesn't?

[KGs Knee]

Your rookie year should be whichever year is the first year you are paid by a NBA team.

The first year you are paid by a NBA team counts as your first year of service, regardless of whether or not you play, so it should be considered your rookie season.

[Moranis]

Your rookie year should be whichever year is the first year you are paid by a NBA team.

The first year you are paid by a NBA team counts as your first year of service, regardless of whether or not you play, so it should be considered your rookie season.

What if you are drafted by a NBA team but then spend your entire first season in the GLeague?  What if you play on a summer league team or in training camp, but then go to Europe or the GLeague for the entire season?  What if you sign a 10 day contract at the end of some season but never play in a game?

[bdm860]

Your rookie year should be whichever year is the first year you are paid by a NBA team.

The first year you are paid by a NBA team counts as your first year of service, regardless of whether or not you play, so it should be considered your rookie season.

What if you are drafted by a NBA team but then spend your entire first season in the GLeague?  What if you play on a summer league team or in training camp, but then go to Europe or the GLeague for the entire season?  What if you sign a 10 day contract at the end of some season but never play in a game?

It's a shame some people want to take away the only NBA awards Jamario Moon ever won (All-Rookie 2nd team, Jan '08 EC Rookie of the Month), because he was paid by several teams during summer league/training camp in prior years.

[GratefulCs]

For those who think it should a rookie should be determined by their draft class, does that mean Dario Saric would never have had a rookie season?

No, because his rookie season was his first with an NBA team.  Euros who stay overseas can't be held to draft class, but guys like Simmons, Griffin and Embiid can, like Androslav mentioned.

It sounds like you're saying Simmons shouldn't be eligible for rookie of the year because it's an unfair advantage to be around an NBA team for a year before playing. Is it not also an unfair advantage for Dario Saric to play professional basketball for years overseas and be older than someone drafted after one year of college in America? Why does one thing matter and the other doesn't?

i always forget that euro leagues are part of the NBA

[GratefulCs]

i have a question: what was ben simmons considered the year he sat out?

[Donoghus]

i have a question: what was ben simmons considered the year he sat out?

Injured.

[GratefulCs]

i have a question: what was ben simmons considered the year he sat out?

Injured.

an injured NBA player?

or just a regs human

[jambr380]

i have a question: what was ben simmons considered the year he sat out?

What would folks think if Simmons' rookie contract didn't begin until this year or Embiid's didn't begin until last season? If they didn't play at all (or in a minimum # of games/minutes...the MLB argument), should the timeline begin on their rookie scale contract? Is there another way of paying them outside of crappy G-League level contracts?

This would seem to alleviate part of the argument of somebody like Saric being considered a rookie, but Simmons not.

[KGs Knee]

Your rookie year should be whichever year is the first year you are paid by a NBA team.

The first year you are paid by a NBA team counts as your first year of service, regardless of whether or not you play, so it should be considered your rookie season.

What if you are drafted by a NBA team but then spend your entire first season in the GLeague?  What if you play on a summer league team or in training camp, but then go to Europe or the GLeague for the entire season?  What if you sign a 10 day contract at the end of some season but never play in a game?

Doesn't matter. If you accrue a year of NBA service, that is your rookie year.

It counts as your first year in every other meaningful way, so I see no reason why rookie awards should be viewed differently.

[Big333223]

For those who think it should a rookie should be determined by their draft class, does that mean Dario Saric would never have had a rookie season?

No, because his rookie season was his first with an NBA team.  Euros who stay overseas can't be held to draft class, but guys like Simmons, Griffin and Embiid can, like Androslav mentioned.

It sounds like you're saying Simmons shouldn't be eligible for rookie of the year because it's an unfair advantage to be around an NBA team for a year before playing. Is it not also an unfair advantage for Dario Saric to play professional basketball for years overseas and be older than someone drafted after one year of college in America? Why does one thing matter and the other doesn't?

i always forget that euro leagues are part of the NBA

  Where did I say Euro leagues are part of the NBA?

[smokeablount]

For those who think it should a rookie should be determined by their draft class, does that mean Dario Saric would never have had a rookie season?

No, because his rookie season was his first with an NBA team.  Euros who stay overseas can't be held to draft class, but guys like Simmons, Griffin and Embiid can, like Androslav mentioned.

It sounds like you're saying Simmons shouldn't be eligible for rookie of the year because it's an unfair advantage to be around an NBA team for a year before playing. Is it not also an unfair advantage for Dario Saric to play professional basketball for years overseas and be older than someone drafted after one year of college in America? Why does one thing matter and the other doesn't?

Because the award isn’t for Global Professional Rookie of the Year, it’s NBA ROY. Ben Simmons collected a year of checks from an NBA franchise for a whole season, his first season, when he never played. Saric collected checks from a non-NBA entity. I am not merely saying being a pro for a year is an advantage. It is, but to me the contractual element is tied to the award. Also, you can’t tell me with a straight face that Euro leagues are like the NBA. The talent in all phases is worlds apart. I know multiple people that played pro in Europe (Jared Jordan from Marist being one) and I could survive on the court with them in my day. You think I could blend in with NBA players?

To use someone else’s analogy, let’s say I’m hired as a teacher right out of college, but I refuse to teach for my entire first year and just sit in and watch seasoned teachers teach, explore how curriculums are setup, see how different kids learn in different ways, understand how administration works and how to deal with parents, etc.

Now, after I do that for a year, bring in a college grad with no classroom or real world experience, and who is less promising of a candidate than I was when I came out of college, and have us each teach a class. The less effective teacher will be fired. Who do you think keeps their job? And why compare the two of us at all if the playing field is stacked so differently?