Author Topic: Paul George Traded To OKC  (Read 84692 times)

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Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #300 on: July 01, 2017, 10:40:37 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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sorry to join the thread a bit late...19 pages late.  ;D

has it been established that george would have definately signed with boston beyond one year?

if not, then trading anything of worth for him would have been a mistake by ainge.

It's not definite.

At the same time, it's not definite that we get the LAL pick, or even the SAC one.

But with all the LA rumors never stopping, the odds might be greater with those picks.

I ran a sandwich shop for almost 20 years, when a customer wanted extra of something, you didn't give them a ton of it, just a little. Why? because the next time they come in they expect that much and more. And it goes up and up until you're broke.

I'm sure DA would have put the LA/Sac pick on the table AFTER Hayward was commited, but if he would have lead with the LA/SAC pick, Indy would have asked for the Nets/Brown/ or Tatum. DA would have said no, and Indy would be p---ed and walked just like they did.

If Danny didn't put his best offer on the table, then he messed up. I agree that you don't lead with your best offer, but these negotiations have been open for weeks.

To play with your analogy a bit, if the biggest company in town offered you an exclusive catering contract, would you dicker over a 10 cent slice of cheese per sandwich?

Danny lowballed Indy, because he thought everyone else was low balling them, too. If he'd paid a fraction of what a 27 year old superstar is worth, we'd be contenders right now.

I'm on the fence. I agree with you that if you have a chance to field a legit championship team, you do it.

So here are the uncertainties that would have to go our way for this to work out:
1. Hayward signs too. (IMO George doesn't do it alone esp. if we give up either Crowder or Bradley, or both). what would we say those odds are right now - 30% 50%?
2. We beat both CLE and GS next year. What are those odds with Hayward and George? 10%? 30% I don't know really.

However even with those two contingencies you're looking at something like a 10% chance at a ring, tops. Most likely, for one year.

Now, you're trading that against, proximately, the chances of that LAL/SAC pick giving us a franchise talent or otherwise pushing us over the top (assuming that would have been enough). I analyzed some of those odds in another post, but in brief, they are very, very small. You're looking at the odds of getting a high pick, the odds that guy is All-NBA, etc.

So I think through that lens it looks like a winner to move the LAL/SAC pick.

Here's the only monkey wrench I see, that would make this a smart decision by Danny rather than a bad one: he has something else in the works for that same pick that beats a one-year George rental.

Maybe it's moving it for a vet big who's signed for multiple years? (I know what you're thinking, we could have had Boogie, but Ainge clearly saw something there he didn't like). Or what if we can trade some of those lesser 1st rounders plus Crowder or Bradley for a terrific interior defender?

So I think we should wait until the dust has settled on this offseason before making any judgments.

Also, it's probably been said elsewhere but if Pritchard was holding out for BKN 18, then I think we should all agree Danny was right to say no.

I understand the basic objection to all this, which is that Danny's been kicking the can over and over, and when does it stop. But I think he's also been vindicated, in some sense, because the vets that many of us happily would have given up BKN 18 for at the deadline this year ended up going for much less in trade. He hasn't been the right trade partner but I don't think he's 100% to blame, especially if he's been the highest bidder in at least some of these deals.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #301 on: July 01, 2017, 10:47:44 AM »

Offline MBunge

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I wonder why the Pacers wouldn't wait to see what happened with Hayward first?

Almost like a spite trade.

Why should they? To repeatedly get offered Crowder and a non-lottery pick?

This isn't like you.
It takes two to make a deal.
There was no deal with Boston unless it was way too much.
Good that it wasn't done.


I don't think the Lakers pick was way too much. George is an All-NBA talent. The odds that we draft a player with that pick who is even 90% of George are pretty slim. The odds of that pick even conveying next year aren't great, around 70% if the Lakers finish with the 4th worst record.

The fact that Indy couldn't get a much worse pick out of OKC or anyone else argues against that.

Mike

The fact that we didn't get an elite player who can go toe-to-toe with Lebron argues for it.

Then why didn't they get even ONE draft pick out of OKC? 

Mike

They were offered them. They preferred players over garbage picks.

And they took an expensive player and a young big who doesn't look like he's going to be any close to being an all-star.

That's not at all better.

I'd prefer Oladipo and Sabonis to Crowder and non-lottery picks.

Are you just straight up lying about this?  EVERY report I've seen said the offer was Crowder, the picks, AND ANOTHER PLAYER.  And if we wanted to also sign Hayward that player had to be Bradley, IT or Smart and if it was Smart, we might have had to thrown in Rozier to make the money work.

If your argument is built on a falsehood, get a better argument.

Mike

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #302 on: July 01, 2017, 10:52:03 AM »

Offline mctyson

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Tough to understand the deal but my conclusion is that this offered two good young players with no dead weight salary back.  The Celtics and Cavs both needed to dump salary as part of the trade.  Indiana ended up with a deal that essentially had no bad salary coming back.  Probably was the reason they liked this deal best.

I would not consider Crowder or Bradley "bad salary."  My guess is that Indy balked on AB because he would be up in a year.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #303 on: July 01, 2017, 10:52:05 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Kevin O'Connor describes how the perception of many talent evaluators around the league is that our offer (and others) beat what the Pacers eventually got for George.

https://theringer.com/nba-kevin-pritchard-indiana-pacers-paul-george-trade-eac571cec6c9

Quote
NBA executives are just as stunned as you are that the Pacers traded Paul George to the Thunder for Victor Oladipo and Domantas Sabonis. Seconds after the trade broke, one agent texted me nine consecutive tears-of-joy emoji. Front offices top to bottom are often huddled together at the start of free agency, doing their best to strategize their team’s future — when the news of the trade broke, one Eastern Conference war room erupted in one collective “WHAAAAAAAATTTT????!!” A Western Conference front-office executive said, “There were at least three or four teams that had objectively better offers.”

Quote
Pritchard essentially assumed the role of the goofball in your fantasy football league who asks for the world for his star wide receiver, then ends up trading him for a backup tight end and a kicker.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #304 on: July 01, 2017, 10:54:33 AM »

Offline Eja117

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For the whole Oladipo has a ridiculous contract crowd....

Jrue Holiday just signed 5 years ...$125 mill.   He hasn't played a full season since 2010-11. He hasn't played more than 75 since 12-13. And he's older by a couple years. Bonuses could push the deal to 150.   


Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #305 on: July 01, 2017, 10:56:04 AM »

Offline Eja117

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I wonder why the Pacers wouldn't wait to see what happened with Hayward first?

Almost like a spite trade.

Why should they? To repeatedly get offered Crowder and a non-lottery pick?

This isn't like you.
It takes two to make a deal.
There was no deal with Boston unless it was way too much.
Good that it wasn't done.


I don't think the Lakers pick was way too much. George is an All-NBA talent. The odds that we draft a player with that pick who is even 90% of George are pretty slim. The odds of that pick even conveying next year aren't great, around 70% if the Lakers finish with the 4th worst record.

The fact that Indy couldn't get a much worse pick out of OKC or anyone else argues against that.

Mike

The fact that we didn't get an elite player who can go toe-to-toe with Lebron argues for it.

Then why didn't they get even ONE draft pick out of OKC? 

Mike

They were offered them. They preferred players over garbage picks.

And they took an expensive player and a young big who doesn't look like he's going to be any close to being an all-star.

That's not at all better.

I'd prefer Oladipo and Sabonis to Crowder and non-lottery picks.

It doesn't matter what we prefer, though. Indy wanted a legit offer from us. Danny wouldn't budge. Turning down the chance to get a 27 year old superstar who just averaged 28 / 9 / 7 against Lebron seems like a failure to me.
OKC got fleeced. Ainge refused to be fleeced. Also the Pacers got the worse deal if they turned down Crowder, Rozier, and 3 draft picks.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #306 on: July 01, 2017, 10:57:45 AM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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Woj just said on ESPN that the Pacers wanted Crowder/Smart/multiple 1srs but we weren't willing to commit til we signed Hayward. Sounds like they panicked and jumped the gun early for some reason.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #307 on: July 01, 2017, 11:01:15 AM »

Offline kozlodoev

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I wonder why the Pacers wouldn't wait to see what happened with Hayward first?

Almost like a spite trade.

Why should they? To repeatedly get offered Crowder and a non-lottery pick?

This isn't like you.
It takes two to make a deal.
There was no deal with Boston unless it was way too much.
Good that it wasn't done.


I don't think the Lakers pick was way too much. George is an All-NBA talent. The odds that we draft a player with that pick who is even 90% of George are pretty slim. The odds of that pick even conveying next year aren't great, around 70% if the Lakers finish with the 4th worst record.

The fact that Indy couldn't get a much worse pick out of OKC or anyone else argues against that.

Mike

The fact that we didn't get an elite player who can go toe-to-toe with Lebron argues for it.

Then why didn't they get even ONE draft pick out of OKC? 

Mike

They were offered them. They preferred players over garbage picks.

And they took an expensive player and a young big who doesn't look like he's going to be any close to being an all-star.

That's not at all better.

I'd prefer Oladipo and Sabonis to Crowder and non-lottery picks.

Are you just straight up lying about this?  EVERY report I've seen said the offer was Crowder, the picks, AND ANOTHER PLAYER.  And if we wanted to also sign Hayward that player had to be Bradley, IT or Smart and if it was Smart, we might have had to thrown in Rozier to make the money work.

If your argument is built on a falsehood, get a better argument.

Mike
Oladipo + Sabonis > Crowder + Rozier. Not sure a handful of second tier 1st rounders are going to even it up really.
"I don't know half of you half as well as I should like; and I like less than half of you half as well as you deserve."

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #308 on: July 01, 2017, 11:01:19 AM »

Offline mctyson

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I'm with Roy on this one. Ainge should have included a prime asset to get it done.

Paul George is not resigning here.  He has made it clear to the entire league that he wants to be a free agent in 2018.

If Ainge trades Crowder, Bradley, and any of these prime assets you refer to for one year of Paul George and they do not make the NBA Finals (not a given) it would be a disaster for this franchise.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #309 on: July 01, 2017, 11:01:37 AM »

Offline OldSchoolDude

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sorry to join the thread a bit late...19 pages late.  ;D

has it been established that george would have definately signed with boston beyond one year?

if not, then trading anything of worth for him would have been a mistake by ainge.

It's not definite.

At the same time, it's not definite that we get the LAL pick, or even the SAC one.

But with all the LA rumors never stopping, the odds might be greater with those picks.

I ran a sandwich shop for almost 20 years, when a customer wanted extra of something, you didn't give them a ton of it, just a little. Why? because the next time they come in they expect that much and more. And it goes up and up until you're broke.

I'm sure DA would have put the LA/Sac pick on the table AFTER Hayward was commited, but if he would have lead with the LA/SAC pick, Indy would have asked for the Nets/Brown/ or Tatum. DA would have said no, and Indy would be p---ed and walked just like they did.

If Danny didn't put his best offer on the table, then he messed up
. I agree that you don't lead with your best offer, but these negotiations have been open for weeks.

To play with your analogy a bit, if the biggest company in town offered you an exclusive catering contract, would you dicker over a 10 cent slice of cheese per sandwich?

Danny lowballed Indy,
because he thought everyone else was low balling them, too. If he'd paid a fraction of what a 27 year old superstar is worth, we'd be contenders right now.

I beg to differ, Danny made really good offers to Indy and really they wetter better than OKC.

Quote
Below the surface, it’s clear that the Celtics’ failure to strike isn’t for lack of trying. ESPN’s Jeff Goodman reported that Ainge offered Indiana three non-premium picks, Jae Crowder, and another Celtics starter (presumed to be Avery Bradley) for George during the draft. Steve Bulpett of the Boston Herald independently reported the same, and added that the Celtics made an even better offer at the February deadline: a 2017 pick swap that involved Brooklyn’s selection, which became No. 1 overall.

Quote
This is why faulting the Celtics isn’t fair. Ainge did everything he could reasonably do to outbid the Thunder for Paul George. He offered the 2017 Brooklyn pick in a swap at the deadline. He offered three firsts and two solid players on good, unobtrusive contracts more recently. The Celtics offered the better deals in both instances.

Quote
Larry Bird ran the Pacers in February. He should have taken that deal from the Celtics. Kevin Pritchard ran the Pacers on draft night. He should have taken the Celtics’ offer.

Quote
Victor Oladipo is a nice young player, and Domantas Sabonis is a well-regarded prospect. But the chance to nab multiple first-round picks, one of the best contracts in the NBA in Crowder, and a high-character stopgap guard in Bradley is better under every scenario.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.sbnation.com/platform/amp/nba/2017/7/1/15907324/paul-george-trade-pacers-what-about-the-celtics

Teams think just because Danny has the assets to trade he needs to give up everything to get a deal done and if he doesn't then he's the jerk and they would rather take a lesser deal to spite Danny.  It's the human factor that is messing us up. It takes two to make a trade happen and Danny is going as all in as you can without being stupid.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #310 on: July 01, 2017, 11:01:44 AM »

Offline Boris Badenov

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Woj just said on ESPN that the Pacers wanted Crowder/Smart/multiple 1srs but we weren't willing to commit til we signed Hayward. Sounds like they panicked and jumped the gun early for some reason.

This is just nuts. Did Pritchard believe the OKC offer was getting pulled off the table in the next three days?

Because if not, whatever else you believe about the value of the pieces involved to him or anyone else, he gave up something for nothing. That alone is clear evidence that he's a bad decision maker.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #311 on: July 01, 2017, 11:01:56 AM »

Offline Yoki_IsTheName

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Woj just said on ESPN that the Pacers wanted Crowder/Smart/multiple 1srs but we weren't willing to commit til we signed Hayward. Sounds like they panicked and jumped the gun early for some reason.

Man... This makes me even more angry.

They really couldn't wait out? This stupid deal they did with OKC would be available in two week or so. They could still trade him to LA.

Good God, I want to hit Kevin Pritchard...
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Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #312 on: July 01, 2017, 11:03:06 AM »

Offline mctyson

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Woj just said on ESPN that the Pacers wanted Crowder/Smart/multiple 1srs but we weren't willing to commit til we signed Hayward. Sounds like they panicked and jumped the gun early for some reason.

Not really a panic by Indy, but if Hayward doesn't sign then Boston is off the table and you lose leverage on any other partners.

It is clear that Indy really loves Oladipo more than the prospect of having Crowder or Bradley.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #313 on: July 01, 2017, 11:05:27 AM »

Offline mctyson

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I wonder why the Pacers wouldn't wait to see what happened with Hayward first?

Almost like a spite trade.

Why should they? To repeatedly get offered Crowder and a non-lottery pick?

This isn't like you.
It takes two to make a deal.
There was no deal with Boston unless it was way too much.
Good that it wasn't done.


I don't think the Lakers pick was way too much. George is an All-NBA talent. The odds that we draft a player with that pick who is even 90% of George are pretty slim. The odds of that pick even conveying next year aren't great, around 70% if the Lakers finish with the 4th worst record.

The fact that Indy couldn't get a much worse pick out of OKC or anyone else argues against that.

Mike

The fact that we didn't get an elite player who can go toe-to-toe with Lebron argues for it.

Then why didn't they get even ONE draft pick out of OKC? 

Mike

They were offered them. They preferred players over garbage picks.

And they took an expensive player and a young big who doesn't look like he's going to be any close to being an all-star.

That's not at all better.

I'd prefer Oladipo and Sabonis to Crowder and non-lottery picks.

It doesn't matter what we prefer, though. Indy wanted a legit offer from us. Danny wouldn't budge. Turning down the chance to get a 27 year old superstar who just averaged 28 / 9 / 7 against Lebron seems like a failure to me.
OKC got fleeced. Ainge refused to be fleeced. Also the Pacers got the worse deal if they turned down Crowder, Rozier, and 3 draft picks.

I wouldn't say that OKC got fleeced, but the downside risk is the same with Boston:  Paul George bolts after one year and you have zero to show for the trade.

Re: Paul George Traded To OKC
« Reply #314 on: July 01, 2017, 11:06:36 AM »

Offline RJ87

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Woj just said on ESPN that the Pacers wanted Crowder/Smart/multiple 1srs but we weren't willing to commit til we signed Hayward. Sounds like they panicked and jumped the gun early for some reason.

Man... This makes me even more angry.

They really couldn't wait out? This stupid deal they did with OKC would be available in two week or so. They could still trade him to LA.

Good God, I want to hit Kevin Pritchard...

Again, Indy isn't executing the  trade with OKC until July 7th. So they were willing to wait if the offer was there.

What Indy didn't want to wait for is for us to miss out on Hayward and decide we didn't want to deal for George after all.

I get that. We have no right to hold other franchises hostage while hm get our ducks in a row.
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