Author Topic: No way Yabusele plays overseas  (Read 14997 times)

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Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #45 on: July 08, 2016, 01:32:28 PM »

Offline Tr1boy

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Yabu will make the roster imo. Once zully are both gone to other teams

Danny said he expects 2 maybe 3 from the draft to make the roster



With Yabusele overseas it allows for one or two of Jackson and Bentil to make the roster along with Brown... of course depending on what happens with Zeller/Sullinger.

What best we can hope for though from a purely asset gathering AND 2016-17 season best roster is that all our rookies outside of Brown accept a non-NBA contract (trades and other FA targets aside).

Yabu over Bentil

If Bentil was better I would agree with you. But he is not

Jackson looka like one way or the other will make the team as the 3rd string pg

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #46 on: July 08, 2016, 01:38:00 PM »

Offline kozlodoev

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Yabu will make the roster imo. Once zully are both gone to other teams

Danny said he expects 2 maybe 3 from the draft to make the roster



With Yabusele overseas it allows for one or two of Jackson and Bentil to make the roster along with Brown... of course depending on what happens with Zeller/Sullinger.

What best we can hope for though from a purely asset gathering AND 2016-17 season best roster is that all our rookies outside of Brown accept a non-NBA contract (trades and other FA targets aside).

Yabu over Bentil

If Bentil was better I would agree with you. But he is not

Jackson looka like one way or the other will make the team as the 3rd string pg
Bentil, Yabusele and Mickey largely look like the same player. The thing is you can have Bentil without losing Yabusele -- but not the other way round.
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Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #47 on: July 08, 2016, 01:42:53 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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He can sign with the dleague like Thornton did and it won't count just as if he played overseas.
Why would he choose to sign with the d-league? The contracts are horrible. He isn't going to come to the US to sign in the d-league. If he wants to come over now, the Celtics really have no choice but to sign him. The Celtics only other option is to lose him.

Why did Thornton choose it? Because the season is over overseas when the dleague starts playing. I'm not saying he will, I'm just saying it is possible without it counting against the roster.
No, Thornton chose it because of a lack of interest in him across the NBA. He was a middle of the second round pick.

Players have leverage if teams like them. A middle of the first round pick is not going to choose to play in the dleague. I don't see how Ainge has an option if Yabusele wants to sign now for the minimum deal for his draft slot.

When you draft and stash a first rounder, it is because you are counting on them choosing to continue playing overseas, especially if they are already under contract. I don't see how Ainge has the power to make a mid first rounder sign a contract elsewhere if the player doesn't want to. This isn't MLB.

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #48 on: July 08, 2016, 01:47:35 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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Yabu will make the roster imo. Once zully are both gone to other teams

Danny said he expects 2 maybe 3 from the draft to make the roster



With Yabusele overseas it allows for one or two of Jackson and Bentil to make the roster along with Brown... of course depending on what happens with Zeller/Sullinger.

What best we can hope for though from a purely asset gathering AND 2016-17 season best roster is that all our rookies outside of Brown accept a non-NBA contract (trades and other FA targets aside).

Yabu over Bentil

If Bentil was better I would agree with you. But he is not

Jackson looka like one way or the other will make the team as the 3rd string pg

The POINT is that if Yabu goes overseas, you might not have to choose between either and keep both of them. The other point is that by doing so you also have more assets at your disposal for trades.

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #49 on: July 08, 2016, 01:50:04 PM »

Offline libermaniac

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I would completely disagree with the OP and say there is no way Yabusele does not play overseas this year.  The kid is very raw and in no shape or form ready to contribute to the Celtics this year.  This is a no-brainer.  Ainge will keep in in Europe and not lock up a roster spot.

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #50 on: July 08, 2016, 02:02:29 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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So if Yabusele's agent says his client wants to sign now and is willing to take the minimum contract for his draft position, Ainge just says "no, go sign overseas"? Ainge can do that since Yabusele would have to take time off to be redrafted next year. If you think about it, we should have done that with James Young since it is unlikely Young would have taken a year off to avoid playing in Europe or in the d-league.

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #51 on: July 08, 2016, 02:17:33 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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He can sign with the dleague like Thornton did and it won't count just as if he played overseas.
Why would he choose to sign with the d-league? The contracts are horrible. He isn't going to come to the US to sign in the d-league. If he wants to come over now, the Celtics really have no choice but to sign him. The Celtics only other option is to lose him.

Why did Thornton choose it? Because the season is over overseas when the dleague starts playing. I'm not saying he will, I'm just saying it is possible without it counting against the roster.
No, Thornton chose it because of a lack of interest in him across the NBA. He was a middle of the second round pick.

It didn't matter how much interest he had around the NBA, after he was drafted by us we held his rights.  Only our interest mattered

Quote
Players have leverage if teams like them. A middle of the first round pick is not going to choose to play in the dleague. I don't see how Ainge has an option if Yabusele wants to sign now for the minimum deal for his draft slot.

Even though he picked him in the first round, Ainge doesn't have to offer him a contract, and Yabusele doesn't have to accept it if he does.  Yabusele could very well choose not to play elsewhere if Ainge doesn't offer him a contract, but he would gain almost nothing from that (it would enter him into the 201 draft).  In that time, though, he could not sign a pro contract anywhere (since that would reset the clock to 1 year after said contract ended), so he couldn't make any money that way (not to mention that not playing pro ball for a year would hurt his raft stock).  Ainge is the one with all the control, not the other way around

Quote
When you draft and stash a first rounder, it is because you are counting on them choosing to continue playing overseas, especially if they are already under contract. I don't see how Ainge has the power to make a mid first rounder sign a contract elsewhere if the player doesn't want to. This isn't MLB.

He doesn't have to ability to MAKE him sign a contract, but he has his rights, which would make it career suicide for Yabusele not to.  First rounders have guaranteed contracts, but only in the sense that the contracts they can get must be guaranteed for 2+ years, not in the sense that that are guaranteed to be offered a contract

Source: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q51

Quote
51. What if the team and their drafted player can't agree to a contract? What options does the player have? How long does the team keep his draft rights?

The player's options are limited. What happens depends on a number of factors:

- If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.

- If the player goes on to play college ball after he was drafted, then the team retains the player's draft rights until one year following the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he returns to college and plays intercollegiate basketball, then they retain his draft rights until the 2015 draft. Note that the NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player currently cannot return or go on to play college ball. This rule exists in the CBA in the event the NCAA rules ever change.

- If the player was eligible to play in college before he was drafted but does not go on to play college basketball, then the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he does not return to college and play intercollegiate basketball, they retain his draft rights until the 2014 draft.

- For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.

- In any of the above cases, if the team does not sign the player in the allotted time, the player can enter the next draft. If the team that selects the player in the next draft doesn't sign him either, he becomes a rookie free agent on the date of the following draft.

When a team signs a first round draft pick within three years after he is drafted, they use the salary scale for the year in which he signs (usually the player signs in the same year he is drafted). After three years they have the option of either using the salary scale or signing him as if he was a free agent -- using their cap room or any available exception, with the standard raises. They can only do the latter if the player did not play intercollegiately in the interim. Such a contract must be for at least three seasons, and the salary in the first season must be greater than 120% of the applicable rookie scale amount.

Edit:
So if Yabusele's agent says his client wants to sign now and is willing to take the minimum contract for his draft position, Ainge just says "no, go sign overseas"? Ainge can do that since Yabusele would have to take time off to be redrafted next year. If you think about it, we should have done that with James Young since it is unlikely Young would have taken a year off to avoid playing in Europe or in the d-league.

Well, now that I see this, my former response seems unnecessary...

Basically, yes, Ainge can make him play overseas/in the D-League.

As for the James Young case, I think Danny expected more/quicker development out of him, and thought that either the Celtics would use him or he could use the development
I'm bitter.

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #52 on: July 08, 2016, 02:22:29 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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He can sign with the dleague like Thornton did and it won't count just as if he played overseas.
Why would he choose to sign with the d-league? The contracts are horrible. He isn't going to come to the US to sign in the d-league. If he wants to come over now, the Celtics really have no choice but to sign him. The Celtics only other option is to lose him.

Why did Thornton choose it? Because the season is over overseas when the dleague starts playing. I'm not saying he will, I'm just saying it is possible without it counting against the roster.
No, Thornton chose it because of a lack of interest in him across the NBA. He was a middle of the second round pick.

It didn't matter how much interest he had around the NBA, after he was drafted by us we held his rights.  Only our interest mattered

Quote
Players have leverage if teams like them. A middle of the first round pick is not going to choose to play in the dleague. I don't see how Ainge has an option if Yabusele wants to sign now for the minimum deal for his draft slot.

Even though he picked him in the first round, Ainge doesn't have to offer him a contract, and Yabusele doesn't have to accept it if he does.  Yabusele could very well choose not to play elsewhere if Ainge doesn't offer him a contract, but he would gain almost nothing from that (it would enter him into the 201 draft).  In that time, though, he could not sign a pro contract anywhere (since that would reset the clock to 1 year after said contract ended), so he couldn't make any money that way (not to mention that not playing pro ball for a year would hurt his raft stock).  Ainge is the one with all the control, not the other way around

Quote
When you draft and stash a first rounder, it is because you are counting on them choosing to continue playing overseas, especially if they are already under contract. I don't see how Ainge has the power to make a mid first rounder sign a contract elsewhere if the player doesn't want to. This isn't MLB.

He doesn't have to ability to MAKE him sign a contract, but he has his rights, which would make it career suicide for Yabusele not to.  First rounders have guaranteed contracts, but only in the sense that the contracts they can get must be guaranteed for 2+ years, not in the sense that that are guaranteed to be offered a contract

Source: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q51

Quote
51. What if the team and their drafted player can't agree to a contract? What options does the player have? How long does the team keep his draft rights?

The player's options are limited. What happens depends on a number of factors:

- If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.

- If the player goes on to play college ball after he was drafted, then the team retains the player's draft rights until one year following the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he returns to college and plays intercollegiate basketball, then they retain his draft rights until the 2015 draft. Note that the NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player currently cannot return or go on to play college ball. This rule exists in the CBA in the event the NCAA rules ever change.

- If the player was eligible to play in college before he was drafted but does not go on to play college basketball, then the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he does not return to college and play intercollegiate basketball, they retain his draft rights until the 2014 draft.

- For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.

- In any of the above cases, if the team does not sign the player in the allotted time, the player can enter the next draft. If the team that selects the player in the next draft doesn't sign him either, he becomes a rookie free agent on the date of the following draft.

When a team signs a first round draft pick within three years after he is drafted, they use the salary scale for the year in which he signs (usually the player signs in the same year he is drafted). After three years they have the option of either using the salary scale or signing him as if he was a free agent -- using their cap room or any available exception, with the standard raises. They can only do the latter if the player did not play intercollegiately in the interim. Such a contract must be for at least three seasons, and the salary in the first season must be greater than 120% of the applicable rookie scale amount.
Agreed. As I said in my most recent post, it is a game of chicken. Yabusele can decide to take a year off and return to the draft. That would not be good for his development.

It depends how much a team wants to play hardball with a mid first round pick.

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #53 on: July 08, 2016, 02:27:40 PM »

Offline BitterJim

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He can sign with the dleague like Thornton did and it won't count just as if he played overseas.
Why would he choose to sign with the d-league? The contracts are horrible. He isn't going to come to the US to sign in the d-league. If he wants to come over now, the Celtics really have no choice but to sign him. The Celtics only other option is to lose him.

Why did Thornton choose it? Because the season is over overseas when the dleague starts playing. I'm not saying he will, I'm just saying it is possible without it counting against the roster.
No, Thornton chose it because of a lack of interest in him across the NBA. He was a middle of the second round pick.

It didn't matter how much interest he had around the NBA, after he was drafted by us we held his rights.  Only our interest mattered

Quote
Players have leverage if teams like them. A middle of the first round pick is not going to choose to play in the dleague. I don't see how Ainge has an option if Yabusele wants to sign now for the minimum deal for his draft slot.

Even though he picked him in the first round, Ainge doesn't have to offer him a contract, and Yabusele doesn't have to accept it if he does.  Yabusele could very well choose not to play elsewhere if Ainge doesn't offer him a contract, but he would gain almost nothing from that (it would enter him into the 201 draft).  In that time, though, he could not sign a pro contract anywhere (since that would reset the clock to 1 year after said contract ended), so he couldn't make any money that way (not to mention that not playing pro ball for a year would hurt his raft stock).  Ainge is the one with all the control, not the other way around

Quote
When you draft and stash a first rounder, it is because you are counting on them choosing to continue playing overseas, especially if they are already under contract. I don't see how Ainge has the power to make a mid first rounder sign a contract elsewhere if the player doesn't want to. This isn't MLB.

He doesn't have to ability to MAKE him sign a contract, but he has his rights, which would make it career suicide for Yabusele not to.  First rounders have guaranteed contracts, but only in the sense that the contracts they can get must be guaranteed for 2+ years, not in the sense that that are guaranteed to be offered a contract

Source: http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q51

Quote
51. What if the team and their drafted player can't agree to a contract? What options does the player have? How long does the team keep his draft rights?

The player's options are limited. What happens depends on a number of factors:

- If the player is already under contract to, or signs a contract with a non-NBA team, the team retains the player's draft rights for one year after the player's obligation to the non-NBA team ends. Essentially, the clock stops as long as the player plays pro ball outside the NBA. Players are not included in team salary during the regular season while the player is under contract with a non-NBA team.

- If the player goes on to play college ball after he was drafted, then the team retains the player's draft rights until one year following the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he returns to college and plays intercollegiate basketball, then they retain his draft rights until the 2015 draft. Note that the NCAA rules state that players lose their NCAA eligibility if they are drafted, so the player currently cannot return or go on to play college ball. This rule exists in the CBA in the event the NCAA rules ever change.

- If the player was eligible to play in college before he was drafted but does not go on to play college basketball, then the team retains the player's draft rights until the draft the player would have entered had he not declared early. For example, if a team drafts a college sophomore in 2012 and he does not return to college and play intercollegiate basketball, they retain his draft rights until the 2014 draft.

- For all other players, the team retains the player's draft rights until the date of the next draft.

- In any of the above cases, if the team does not sign the player in the allotted time, the player can enter the next draft. If the team that selects the player in the next draft doesn't sign him either, he becomes a rookie free agent on the date of the following draft.

When a team signs a first round draft pick within three years after he is drafted, they use the salary scale for the year in which he signs (usually the player signs in the same year he is drafted). After three years they have the option of either using the salary scale or signing him as if he was a free agent -- using their cap room or any available exception, with the standard raises. They can only do the latter if the player did not play intercollegiately in the interim. Such a contract must be for at least three seasons, and the salary in the first season must be greater than 120% of the applicable rookie scale amount.
Agreed. As I said in my most recent post, it is a game of chicken. Yabusele can decide to take a year off and return to the draft. That would not be good for his development.

It depends how much a team wants to play hardball with a mid first round pick.

Yeah, it turns into a bit of a game of chicken, but it's like a game of chicken between a person on foot and a car.  Sure, they both have something to lose, but the team has a lot less to lose (a first rounder) than the player (potentially their chance at an NBA career)
I'm bitter.

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #54 on: July 08, 2016, 02:36:48 PM »

Offline 86MaxwellSmart

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He set some really good screens last night too....Dude is a Brick Wall.
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Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #55 on: July 08, 2016, 02:46:30 PM »

Offline PaulAllen

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Yabu will make the roster imo. Once zully are both gone to other teams

Danny said he expects 2 maybe 3 from the draft to make the roster



With Yabusele overseas it allows for one or two of Jackson and Bentil to make the roster along with Brown... of course depending on what happens with Zeller/Sullinger.

What best we can hope for though from a purely asset gathering AND 2016-17 season best roster is that all our rookies outside of Brown accept a non-NBA contract (trades and other FA targets aside).

Yabu over Bentil

If Bentil was better I would agree with you. But he is not

Jackson looka like one way or the other will make the team as the 3rd string pg
Bentil, Yabusele and Mickey largely look like the same player. The thing is you can have Bentil without losing Yabusele -- but not the other way round.

haha not even close!!! Not saying Yab is so much better but they have completly different games

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #56 on: July 08, 2016, 04:21:14 PM »

Offline IDreamCeltics

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If Yabusele is on our roster this season, it'll be a failure of optimizing our roster possibilities.

I agree. I think he can be very good, but he's not ready to contribute serious minutes and it would be better to let him improve overseas before we start the contract clock ticking.

I don't want Sully or Zeller back -- unless it's with the qualifying offer -- but either one would make Yabu look silly right now.

Who cares?  We've seen Sully and Zeller's ceilings and they suck.  Yabusele can replace 80% of Sullinger's rebounding right now and has a shot to be a MUCH better offensive and defensive player for the Celtics.  I'd gladly let either of those non-factors go to hold onto Yabusele and see what kind of player he is by the end of the year.


Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #57 on: July 08, 2016, 04:26:42 PM »

Offline BudweiserCeltic

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If Yabusele is on our roster this season, it'll be a failure of optimizing our roster possibilities.

I agree. I think he can be very good, but he's not ready to contribute serious minutes and it would be better to let him improve overseas before we start the contract clock ticking.

I don't want Sully or Zeller back -- unless it's with the qualifying offer -- but either one would make Yabu look silly right now.

Who cares?  We've seen Sully and Zeller's ceilings and they suck.  Yabusele can replace 80% of Sullinger's rebounding right now and has a shot to be a MUCH better offensive and defensive player for the Celtics.  I'd gladly let either of those non-factors go to hold onto Yabusele and see what kind of player he is by the end of the year.



You should care because if you can give Sullinger and/or Zeller one year contracts at X salary level it'll help to match-up salaries in trades.  And again, it optimizes available assets to be able to trade, aside from actually having the better prepared players to play this season as it is.

For example, to be able to trade for Cousins or Butler without being obligated to give out one of Thomas, Bradley, Crowder (though having Amir/Jerebko now does help).

So... that's a reason to care.
« Last Edit: July 08, 2016, 04:33:09 PM by BudweiserCeltic »

Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #58 on: July 08, 2016, 04:35:01 PM »

Offline LarBrd33

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I've seen enough to at least put him on the 15 man roster...
Only if Sullinger knew how to get to the basket like that...
what is your 15 man roster with Yab included?

Thomas, Bradley, Smart, Horford, Johnson, Jerekbo, Brown, Hunter, Rozier, Mckey, Olynck, Crowder, Bentil, Young, and Yab

barring any major trades or FA signings
So you're letting Zeller, Sully, Jackson, and Nader walk?


Re: No way Yabusele plays overseas
« Reply #59 on: July 08, 2016, 04:56:31 PM »

Offline guava_wrench

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If Yabusele is on our roster this season, it'll be a failure of optimizing our roster possibilities.

I agree. I think he can be very good, but he's not ready to contribute serious minutes and it would be better to let him improve overseas before we start the contract clock ticking.

I don't want Sully or Zeller back -- unless it's with the qualifying offer -- but either one would make Yabu look silly right now.

Who cares?  We've seen Sully and Zeller's ceilings and they suck.  Yabusele can replace 80% of Sullinger's rebounding right now and has a shot to be a MUCH better offensive and defensive player for the Celtics.  I'd gladly let either of those non-factors go to hold onto Yabusele and see what kind of player he is by the end of the year.



You should care because if you can give Sullinger and/or Zeller one year contracts at X salary level it'll help to match-up salaries in trades.  And again, it optimizes available assets to be able to trade, aside from actually having the better prepared players to play this season as it is.

For example, to be able to trade for Cousins or Butler without being obligated to give out one of Thomas, Bradley, Crowder (though having Amir/Jerebko now does help).

So... that's a reason to care.
This is a good point IF we can get Sully or Zeller on an overpriced one year deal.

Once we head into multiyear territory, we could just get stuck with them for the life of the deal if no deal pans out. Also, any deal will mean giving up a lot of picks since Sully himself on a one year overpriced deal won't be bringing much value to his destination team.