Rate Murray athletically based on this Video

[Celtics4ever]

Sullinger was way quicker off his feet in college than he is now, and it isn't because of level of competition. He was also way quicker off his feet as a rookie than he is now. It's his weight mostly. What do you think is going to happen to a person who put on the weight Sully has?

Sully was a not a good athlete in college.   Of course, he was quicker as he was not such a tub of lard but he was never quick.   He had some of the worse test scores at the Combine that year.   Let's not rewrite history.

Sullinger had the slowest lane agility and ¾ court sprint times among players in attendance and a bottom-5 maximum vertical jump of 31 inches. No team selecting Sullinger will be expecting him to get ahead of the break to score in transition, and with continued work on his frame, it isn't unlikely that Sullinger will become a bit more polished athletically at the next level given how he trimmed down this season.

Look at these ratings

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

That being said, he could play in the league, I just do not think he is a guy you throw big bucks at, and honestly given what we have seen, the problems he has are just as likely to get worse as improve.

On Murray, he can shoot.   But we need to see what he can do with Smart guarding him if he wants to go three.   If he can do that, then he should be our pick.

[Csfan1984]

How many of you can dunk or could dunk?

The bounce dunks are some of the easiest ones to do if you have timing.  They look great two but I always thought they were on the easier ones to pull off.   The real thing is do you have timing.

I would say he is average to slightly below average in terms of jumping.

You know who wasnt a good athlete? Paul Pierce.

Pierce had a max vertical of 38".    Don't confuse not jumping high all the time for not having the ability to jump.  This is not a standing vertical.

https://slingersnation.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/a-comparison-with-nba-players-just-how-high-can-the-flyboy-jump/

Google it, can we end the myth of him being a poor NBA athlete.   That is a full ten inches above the NBA average.  He was not the best of his class but hardly the worst.   Is he an athlete next to Vince Carter? Nope.  Sully?  Yes.

Here are the averages by position, the standing vertical for the league is 28" according to ESPN

No step
PG: 29.4
SG: 29.7
SF: 29.7
PF: 28.5
C: 26.8

Max vert:

PG: 34.9
SG: 35
SF: 34.5
PF: 32.8
C: 30.7

I think laypeople who were never tested as a part of a team do not always understand these things.   I wonder how many here have had their vertical tested by a team trainer?

Murray is said to be 33 and 39 so he would be above average "leaper". I agree dunks are about timing. Most college level athletes over 6' should be able to dunk if they have timing.

I got tested in HS and in my 20's was disappointed eras lol

[DarkAzcura]

Sullinger was way quicker off his feet in college than he is now, and it isn't because of level of competition. He was also way quicker off his feet as a rookie than he is now. It's his weight mostly. What do you think is going to happen to a person who put on the weight Sully has?

Sully was a not a good athlete in college.   Of course, he was quicker as he was not such a tub of lard but he was never quick.   He had some of the worse test scores at the Combine that year.   Let's not rewrite history.

Sullinger had the slowest lane agility and ¾ court sprint times among players in attendance and a bottom-5 maximum vertical jump of 31 inches. No team selecting Sullinger will be expecting him to get ahead of the break to score in transition, and with continued work on his frame, it isn't unlikely that Sullinger will become a bit more polished athletically at the next level given how he trimmed down this season.

Look at these ratings

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

That being said, he could play in the league, I just do not think he is a guy you throw big bucks at, and honestly given what we have seen, the problems he has are just as likely to get worse as improve.

On Murray, he can shoot.   But we need to see what he can do with Smart guarding him if he wants to go three.   If he can do that, then he should be our pick.

Never said he was a good athlete. No offense, but you should do a better job of reading the content of the post. It's kind of frustrating. Let's stay away from the "lets not rewrite history" comments when I said nothing 'history changing' at all. Saying someone has become a much worse athlete from his weight gain is not insinuating that the player was ever a good athlete in the first place.

[vjcsmoke]

I would say that Murray is an above average leaper.

33.5" no step and 39" vertical are above average scores.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jamal-Murray-71441/

Now leaping isn't the only athletic talent that you need however.

The main concern is will Murray have the lateral explosion, first step, agility etc. to keep up with the freakishly athletic guards we have in the NBA right now.

If you look at Bender for comparison, it's the inverse.  As a leaper Bender is nothing special for a man of his size, but his length negates his need to be a great jumper.  What stands out for him athletically is his agility, smoothness, and ability to close distance/switch at his size. 

Murray looks like a really great shooter.  But the question is can he take his game to the next level.  Dare we draw Steph Curry comparisons?  A player who is dominating the NBA, and just made his mark in the Finals of game 4.  Or is it unfair to make the comparison, because it takes something extra special to be a Curry besides athleticism.

[TwinTower14]

I would say that Murray is an above average leaper.

33.5" no step and 39" vertical are above average scores.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jamal-Murray-71441/

Now leaping isn't the only athletic talent that you need however.

The main concern is will Murray have the lateral explosion, first step, agility etc. to keep up with the freakishly athletic guards we have in the NBA right now.

If you look at Bender for comparison, it's the inverse.  As a leaper Bender is nothing special for a man of his size, but his length negates his need to be a great jumper.  What stands out for him athletically is his agility, smoothness, and ability to close distance/switch at his size. 

Murray looks like a really great shooter.  But the question is can he take his game to the next level.  Dare we draw Steph Curry comparisons?  A player who is dominating the NBA, and just made his mark in the Finals of game 4.  Or is it unfair to make the comparison, because it takes something extra special to be a Curry besides athleticism.

His freshman stats are identical to Currys freshman stats.

[droopdog7]

Sullinger was way quicker off his feet in college than he is now, and it isn't because of level of competition. He was also way quicker off his feet as a rookie than he is now. It's his weight mostly. What do you think is going to happen to a person who put on the weight Sully has?

Sully was a not a good athlete in college.   Of course, he was quicker as he was not such a tub of lard but he was never quick.   He had some of the worse test scores at the Combine that year.   Let's not rewrite history.

Sullinger had the slowest lane agility and ¾ court sprint times among players in attendance and a bottom-5 maximum vertical jump of 31 inches. No team selecting Sullinger will be expecting him to get ahead of the break to score in transition, and with continued work on his frame, it isn't unlikely that Sullinger will become a bit more polished athletically at the next level given how he trimmed down this season.

Look at these ratings

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

That being said, he could play in the league, I just do not think he is a guy you throw big bucks at, and honestly given what we have seen, the problems he has are just as likely to get worse as improve.

On Murray, he can shoot.   But we need to see what he can do with Smart guarding him if he wants to go three.   If he can do that, then he should be our pick.

Never said he was a good athlete. No offense, but you should do a better job of reading the content of the post. It's kind of frustrating. Let's stay away from the "lets not rewrite history" comments when I said nothing 'history changing' at all. Saying someone has become a much worse athlete from his weight gain is not insinuating that the player was ever a good athlete in the first place.

Of course, you missed my point.  That the Murray videos in the OP are meaningless.  Anyone of these guys can looks like an athlete in an empty gym (or against high school competition).  Murray is a good jumper but that doesn't make him a good or even an average athlete. 

[KG Living Legend]

  Anyone that  thinks Murray is an average athlete is Bat Poop crazy. The dude is about to be a top five pick out of thousands of people that wish to be in the same spot. At 19 years old.

 The kid almost has it all, and we will regret passing on him if we choose to go another route.

[chambers]

Anyone that  thinks Murray is an average athlete is Bat Poop crazy. The dude is about to be a top five pick out of thousands of people that wish to be in the same spot. At 19 years old.

 The kid almost has it all, and we will regret passing on him if we choose to go another route.

No one's saying he's an average athlete, but for an NBA level basketball player, he's actually a below average level athlete.

Luckily for Murray, he's a very crafty player like Paul Pierce who can get to his spot and manipulate his defenders to get his preferred shot off.

The biggest problem with Murray is that when you combine his below average athleticism with his poor wingspan and standing reach, then you worry about his ability to compete on the defensive end against the best athletes in the world on a nightly basis.

Chad Ford recently reported that multiple NBA GM's were concerned about his poor defense and the lack of potential on defense that Murray has.

I will be happy if we take Murray with the 3rd pick, but he's going to need some serious work on the defensive end and work on his body/agility/explosiveness to make it as a star at the next level. The good news is he has a solid work ethic and playing with guys like Smart, Bradley and Crowder in practice will help him tremendously- but to get on the floor with Stevens, you must be a capable defender and right now, Murray couldn't guard a chair in the NBA.

There's a reason his agent made him avoid workouts involving other players and had him focus on making 100 wide open three point shots against a chair, rather than pit him against other top draft prospects in workouts- I'm pretty sure everyone understands what his weaknesses are.

[mctyson]

 On a scale of 1 to 10 in .1 increments.

 Say Jordan was a 9.9 as an athlete
 Russell Westbrook is a 9.8
 
 What would you rate Murray based on these dunks. I know more than dunks is required but it gives you an idea of his athleticism.

 For lazy people the Dunk at 1:05 is the second hardest. And the 1:10 dunk is his best.

https://youtu.be/vEPiuyfzc4A

is this a joke?

are you his agent?

[myselfonline]

It's hard judge based on practice dunks. Generally, the ability to pull off dunks in practice is not a good metric of athleticism and how it translates to in game situations.

This was Marcus Smart a couple of years back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyD3JOwnug

At the same height as Murray, you can argue that Smart showed more explosiveness in his dunks than Murray, and better leaping ability. I wouldn't say Marcus is a poor athlete, but other than exploding for rebounds every now and then, Marcus has not shown his athletic abilities in game.

If Smart is a slightly above average athlete, then Murray is either average or slightly below average. Based on these two videos.

Also, athleticism includes other things such as speed and agility. How high he gets from the ground is important, but how quickly he gets off the ground is equally important.

What I do like about Murray over Hield, though, is he looks to have better control when finishing at the rim. I understand that Hield has improved at finishing at the rim, but I don't know if he can do it against NBA level defenders.

[KG Living Legend]

 On a scale of 1 to 10 in .1 increments.

 Say Jordan was a 9.9 as an athlete
 Russell Westbrook is a 9.8
 
 What would you rate Murray based on these dunks. I know more than dunks is required but it gives you an idea of his athleticism.

 For lazy people the Dunk at 1:05 is the second hardest. And the 1:10 dunk is his best.

https://youtu.be/vEPiuyfzc4A

is this a joke?

are you his agent?

 Yes I am I get 6% of his contract. Now answer the question Beavis

[crimson_stallion]

 On a scale of 1 to 10 in .1 increments.

 Say Jordan was a 9.9 as an athlete
 Russell Westbrook is a 9.8
 
 What would you rate Murray based on these dunks. I know more than dunks is required but it gives you an idea of his athleticism.

 For lazy people the Dunk at 1:05 is the second hardest. And the 1:10 dunk is his best.

https://youtu.be/vEPiuyfzc4A

I would give him a solid 5 or 6.  Those dunks are not athletic at all - those are the type of dunks I expect to see Paul Pierce and Vince Carter to be able to do now in their fringe 40's.  Not even remotely impressive for an NBA SG. 

If he was a 6'0" Point Guard and pulled off those dunks, then I would be more impressed.  But he's not. 

[DarkAzcura]

Sullinger was way quicker off his feet in college than he is now, and it isn't because of level of competition. He was also way quicker off his feet as a rookie than he is now. It's his weight mostly. What do you think is going to happen to a person who put on the weight Sully has?

Sully was a not a good athlete in college.   Of course, he was quicker as he was not such a tub of lard but he was never quick.   He had some of the worse test scores at the Combine that year.   Let's not rewrite history.

Sullinger had the slowest lane agility and ¾ court sprint times among players in attendance and a bottom-5 maximum vertical jump of 31 inches. No team selecting Sullinger will be expecting him to get ahead of the break to score in transition, and with continued work on his frame, it isn't unlikely that Sullinger will become a bit more polished athletically at the next level given how he trimmed down this season.

Look at these ratings

http://www.draftexpress.com/article/NBA-Combine-Athletic-Testing-Analysis-3965/

That being said, he could play in the league, I just do not think he is a guy you throw big bucks at, and honestly given what we have seen, the problems he has are just as likely to get worse as improve.

On Murray, he can shoot.   But we need to see what he can do with Smart guarding him if he wants to go three.   If he can do that, then he should be our pick.

Never said he was a good athlete. No offense, but you should do a better job of reading the content of the post. It's kind of frustrating. Let's stay away from the "lets not rewrite history" comments when I said nothing 'history changing' at all. Saying someone has become a much worse athlete from his weight gain is not insinuating that the player was ever a good athlete in the first place.

Of course, you missed my point.  That the Murray videos in the OP are meaningless.  Anyone of these guys can looks like an athlete in an empty gym (or against high school competition).  Murray is a good jumper but that doesn't make him a good or even an average athlete.

Did you see the videos I posted right before your original post? They were in game videos at the college level.

It's hard judge based on practice dunks. Generally, the ability to pull off dunks in practice is not a good metric of athleticism and how it translates to in game situations.

This was Marcus Smart a couple of years back:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FuyD3JOwnug

At the same height as Murray, you can argue that Smart showed more explosiveness in his dunks than Murray, and better leaping ability. I wouldn't say Marcus is a poor athlete, but other than exploding for rebounds every now and then, Marcus has not shown his athletic abilities in game.

If Smart is a slightly above average athlete, then Murray is either average or slightly below average. Based on these two videos.

Also, athleticism includes other things such as speed and agility. How high he gets from the ground is important, but how quickly he gets off the ground is equally important.

What I do like about Murray over Hield, though, is he looks to have better control when finishing at the rim. I understand that Hield has improved at finishing at the rim, but I don't know if he can do it against NBA level defenders.

The problem with Smart isn't lack of explosion really. The issue is that his handle is not that strong. You see him on the defensive side of the ball and on offensive put backs making crazy, explosive plays. The second you put the ball in his hands, you see his explosion fall off a lot. It stinks, but yeah. I really hope Smart is able to develop more of a natural handle soon because he is more explosive than he has shown so far.

Anyway, if you check out one of my previous posts, you will see a few in game dunks from Murray. Smart has never completed dunks like those off the dribble at the college level as far as I remember.

[chambers]

I would say that Murray is an above average leaper.

33.5" no step and 39" vertical are above average scores.
http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Jamal-Murray-71441/

Now leaping isn't the only athletic talent that you need however.

The main concern is will Murray have the lateral explosion, first step, agility etc. to keep up with the freakishly athletic guards we have in the NBA right now.

If you look at Bender for comparison, it's the inverse.  As a leaper Bender is nothing special for a man of his size, but his length negates his need to be a great jumper.  What stands out for him athletically is his agility, smoothness, and ability to close distance/switch at his size. 

Murray looks like a really great shooter.  But the question is can he take his game to the next level.  Dare we draw Steph Curry comparisons?  A player who is dominating the NBA, and just made his mark in the Finals of game 4.  Or is it unfair to make the comparison, because it takes something extra special to be a Curry besides athleticism.

Really excellent points you've made and heavily overlooked  considerations the majority of the time. TP

[KG Living Legend]

 I really feel If Murray continues, him gym rat mentality, meditation practices, martial arts, he could be that incredible offensive talent the Celtics need.