Author Topic: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video  (Read 7667 times)

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Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #15 on: June 11, 2016, 10:01:40 AM »

Offline td450

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He doesnt get up high but he does cover ground. Some people say he isn't a good athlete because he doesnt explode enough for highlights or use his speed on defense enough. We collectively need to think of this like looking at Devin Booker. Booker was considered a better than expected athlete after his combine and was also called the best shooter of his draft. Murray best Devin Bookers numbers in stats and athletically and he isn't getting the same respect as an athlete and shooter. Booker avg 13.8/2.5/2.6 on 42% shooting (34% from three) this year in the NBA. Booker also had a few 30+ point games as a rookie to boot. If Murray is a better athlete, equal shooter, better ball handler and better rebounder (1 inch shorter in height though) what kind of production just coming in can he put up? Does 16/4/3 on 44% shooting (34% from three) sound reasonable? That is rookie of the year consideration levels in a normal year. Point is Booker looks like he belongs and can be an impact scorer and Murray is on the same curve.  If C's get a better Devin Booker at 3 should any one be disappointed?
Booker is a good comparison, but he came in and did all the work he needed to do. Most players don't have that level of focus. He worked really hard, transformed his body and greatly improved his handle. By the end of the year, he was much more fit than he ever was in college. For Murray to reach his full potential, he will have to do the same.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #16 on: June 11, 2016, 10:05:59 AM »

Offline Smokeeye123

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How many of you can dunk or could dunk?

The bounce dunks are some of the easiest ones to do if you have timing.  They look great two but I always thought they were on the easier ones to pull off.   The real thing is do you have timing.

I would say he is average to slightly below average in terms of jumping.


Quote
You know who wasnt a good athlete? Paul Pierce.

Pierce had a max vertical of 38".    Don't confuse not jumping high all the time for not having the ability to jump.  This is not a standing vertical.

https://slingersnation.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/a-comparison-with-nba-players-just-how-high-can-the-flyboy-jump/

Google it, can we end the myth of him being a poor NBA athlete.   That is a full ten inches above the NBA average.  He was not the best of his class but hardly the worst.   Is he an athlete next to Vince Carter? Nope.  Sully?  Yes.

Here are the averages by position, the standing vertical for the league is 28" according to ESPN

No step
PG: 29.4
SG: 29.7
SF: 29.7
PF: 28.5
C: 26.8

Max vert:

PG: 34.9
SG: 35
SF: 34.5
PF: 32.8
C: 30.7

I think laypeople who were never tested as a part of a team do not always understand these things.   I wonder how many here have had their vertical tested by a team trainer?

Your missing the point, being that you don't have to be a phenomenal athlete to be great in the NBA. It's preferable, but especially if your game is based on shooting and hitting jumpers maybe it doesn't matter if you can jump high. If you have a couple moves ala Pierce to get open and get a shot off that's all you need.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #17 on: June 11, 2016, 10:27:21 AM »

Offline Smartacus

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6.5 - Athletic enough to get by.
By my eye test Steph Curry would be a 7.5

I've been looking to replace Pierce's late game Iso scoring since he left and am now convinced that Murray is our best chance without selling the farm for a guy like Jimmy Butler, and Butler for that matter probably couldn't even score as well as Pierce when the game slows down.

Sticking on the Jamal Murray hype train. IMO he's the pick at 3, anyone else would be over thinking the selection. Hield is the only one who played better last year and he had years of physical development over most of his competition.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #18 on: June 11, 2016, 10:36:33 AM »

Offline Who

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I am more worried about Murray's first step than his jumping.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #19 on: June 11, 2016, 11:15:34 AM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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How many of you can dunk or could dunk?

The bounce dunks are some of the easiest ones to do if you have timing.  They look great two but I always thought they were on the easier ones to pull off.   The real thing is do you have timing.

I would say he is average to slightly below average in terms of jumping.


Quote
You know who wasnt a good athlete? Paul Pierce.

Pierce had a max vertical of 38".    Don't confuse not jumping high all the time for not having the ability to jump.  This is not a standing vertical.

https://slingersnation.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/a-comparison-with-nba-players-just-how-high-can-the-flyboy-jump/

Google it, can we end the myth of him being a poor NBA athlete.   That is a full ten inches above the NBA average.  He was not the best of his class but hardly the worst.   Is he an athlete next to Vince Carter? Nope.  Sully?  Yes.

Here are the averages by position, the standing vertical for the league is 28" according to ESPN

No step
PG: 29.4
SG: 29.7
SF: 29.7
PF: 28.5
C: 26.8

Max vert:

PG: 34.9
SG: 35
SF: 34.5
PF: 32.8
C: 30.7

I think laypeople who were never tested as a part of a team do not always understand these things.   I wonder how many here have had their vertical tested by a team trainer?

Odd that you posted numbers showing how Pierce was above average at jumping, but stated Murray is below average in jumping. He apparently measured out at having a 39-40" vertical at his college camp.

People here should look up some Murray dunks in game.

https://youtu.be/RHfJwm7tX_k

https://youtu.be/XG5m_XtL2-8

https://youtu.be/3pmT_T6ublk

https://youtu.be/VKfPSRFG9X4

https://youtu.be/Ai8a-BVwL00

This one isn't in game but it's worth mentioning:

https://youtu.be/nNuqCeJTbpI

This is not a below average or even slightly average athlete. One of the best indicators for whether you can be a relatively explosive player is if you can dunk through traffic off the dribble. It's really hard to maintain that explosion on your jump to dunk through traffic. You aren't seeing guys like Booker and Curry dunking through traffic like that. Murray shows that ability. He's an underrated athlete much like Pierce used to be, IMO. If you can bring it around your back to dunk, you are a really good athlete. None of our guards can do that in an open gym.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 11:30:25 AM by DarkAzcura »

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2016, 11:30:05 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Clearly people have no idea the level the nba athletes are.  Those videos mean absolutely NOTHING with regard to murrays athleticism.  And I mean nothing.  In fact, I would bet you that Steve Kerr in his heyday could make roughly the same video.  Or better yet, go google sullingers high school videos.  After watching those, people probably would think he was the second coming of Charles Barkley. 

And no, sully hasn't gotten less athletic. 

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2016, 11:32:45 AM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Clearly people have no idea the level the nba athletes are.  Those videos mean absolutely NOTHING with regard to murrays athleticism.  And I mean nothing.  In fact, I would bet you that Steve Kerr in his heyday could make roughly the same video.  Or better yet, go google sullingers high school videos.  After watching those, people probably would think he was the second coming of Charles Barkley. 

And no, sully hasn't gotten less athletic.

I guarantee you will never find a video of Steve Kerr dunking over people off the dribble and through traffic at the college level or higher.

And yes, I would actually say Sully has become much less athletic. He probably has 50-75 pounds on him that he didn't have in high school. He was far more in shape in high school and college and was more explosive as a result. That's what is so aggravating about him. He wasn't an incredible athlete, but he was way more athletic than the grounded current version of himself.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #22 on: June 11, 2016, 11:40:43 AM »

Offline KG Living Legend

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Nice videos Dark.

 This one is the fiercest in game dunk I've ever seen with Murray. Full head of steam and dunks with power on somebody.

 https://youtu.be/3pmT_T6ublk

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #23 on: June 11, 2016, 11:43:34 AM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Nice videos Dark.

 This one is the fiercest in game dunk I've ever seen with Murray. Full head of steam and dunks with power on somebody.

 https://youtu.be/3pmT_T6ublk

Yeah jumping isn't the issue for Murray. He's well above average in that department. It's really his quickness that may be an issue. He's the guy I want, but that is the one thing I would say is a negative..quickness/speed, but he seems like the kind of player who can learn to be crafty and get to his spots. We will see.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #24 on: June 11, 2016, 11:44:49 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Clearly people have no idea the level the nba athletes are.  Those videos mean absolutely NOTHING with regard to murrays athleticism.  And I mean nothing.  In fact, I would bet you that Steve Kerr in his heyday could make roughly the same video.  Or better yet, go google sullingers high school videos.  After watching those, people probably would think he was the second coming of Charles Barkley. 

And no, sully hasn't gotten less athletic.

I guarantee you will never find a video of Steve Kerr dunking over people off the dribble and through traffic at the college level or higher.

And yes, I would actually say Sully has become much less athletic. He probably has 50-75 pounds on him that he didn't have in high school. He was far more in shape in high school and college and was more explosive as a result. That's what is so aggravating about him. He wasn't an incredible athlete, but he was way more athletic than the grounded current version of himself.
You mean to tell me the moment he put on a Celtic uniform he became less athletic?  The very moment?  Okay.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #25 on: June 11, 2016, 11:48:38 AM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Clearly people have no idea the level the nba athletes are.  Those videos mean absolutely NOTHING with regard to murrays athleticism.  And I mean nothing.  In fact, I would bet you that Steve Kerr in his heyday could make roughly the same video.  Or better yet, go google sullingers high school videos.  After watching those, people probably would think he was the second coming of Charles Barkley. 

And no, sully hasn't gotten less athletic.

I guarantee you will never find a video of Steve Kerr dunking over people off the dribble and through traffic at the college level or higher.

And yes, I would actually say Sully has become much less athletic. He probably has 50-75 pounds on him that he didn't have in high school. He was far more in shape in high school and college and was more explosive as a result. That's what is so aggravating about him. He wasn't an incredible athlete, but he was way more athletic than the grounded current version of himself.
You mean to tell me the moment he put on a Celtic uniform he became less athletic?  The very moment?  Okay.

He gained 50-75 pounds as a Celtic and started to have back issues that kept him more grounded by his sophomore year of college..so yes? Never said it was the moment he put on a Celtic uniform, but I'm also not sure why that is such a striking thing for you to get, lol. Sully was definitely way more athletic in high school. He has gradually become a much worse athlete over the last 4 years because of his weight and back issues from college.

Do you not know what 50-75 pounds of weight (not added muscle mostly) and back issues can do to someone's vertical? It absolutely kills it. Never said he was a great athlete or anything, but you said he hasn't gotten worse athletically, which is definitely..just false.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2016, 11:58:02 AM by DarkAzcura »

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #26 on: June 11, 2016, 11:56:59 AM »

Offline droopdog7

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Clearly people have no idea the level the nba athletes are.  Those videos mean absolutely NOTHING with regard to murrays athleticism.  And I mean nothing.  In fact, I would bet you that Steve Kerr in his heyday could make roughly the same video.  Or better yet, go google sullingers high school videos.  After watching those, people probably would think he was the second coming of Charles Barkley. 

And no, sully hasn't gotten less athletic.

I guarantee you will never find a video of Steve Kerr dunking over people off the dribble and through traffic at the college level or higher.

And yes, I would actually say Sully has become much less athletic. He probably has 50-75 pounds on him that he didn't have in high school. He was far more in shape in high school and college and was more explosive as a result. That's what is so aggravating about him. He wasn't an incredible athlete, but he was way more athletic than the grounded current version of himself.
You mean to tell me the moment he put on a Celtic uniform he became less athletic?  The very moment?  Okay.

He gained 50-75 pounds as a Celtic and started to have back issues that kept him more grounded by his sophomore year of college..so yes? Never said it was the moment he put on a Celtic uniform, but I'm also not sure why that is such a striking thing for you to get, lol. Sully was definitely way more athletic in high school. He has gradually become a much worse athlete over the last 4 years because of his weight and back issues from college. There's a reason he dropped from being considered a top 5 pick to falling back to the 20-25 range.

Do you not know what 50-75 pounds of weight (not added muscle mostly) and back issues can do to someone's vertical? It absolutely kills it.
In high school he was dunking on everybody.  That ended the moment he entered college.  Why that that is?

I'll tell you why; it's the level of competition.  When you're the biggest and the baddest you don't have to worry about getting blocked and you're actually more athletic than everyone else.  As the competition rises, you don't become less athletic.  The others around you become more athletic.  Makes you look like a different player.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #27 on: June 11, 2016, 12:03:04 PM »

Offline DarkAzcura

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Clearly people have no idea the level the nba athletes are.  Those videos mean absolutely NOTHING with regard to murrays athleticism.  And I mean nothing.  In fact, I would bet you that Steve Kerr in his heyday could make roughly the same video.  Or better yet, go google sullingers high school videos.  After watching those, people probably would think he was the second coming of Charles Barkley. 

And no, sully hasn't gotten less athletic.

I guarantee you will never find a video of Steve Kerr dunking over people off the dribble and through traffic at the college level or higher.

And yes, I would actually say Sully has become much less athletic. He probably has 50-75 pounds on him that he didn't have in high school. He was far more in shape in high school and college and was more explosive as a result. That's what is so aggravating about him. He wasn't an incredible athlete, but he was way more athletic than the grounded current version of himself.
You mean to tell me the moment he put on a Celtic uniform he became less athletic?  The very moment?  Okay.

He gained 50-75 pounds as a Celtic and started to have back issues that kept him more grounded by his sophomore year of college..so yes? Never said it was the moment he put on a Celtic uniform, but I'm also not sure why that is such a striking thing for you to get, lol. Sully was definitely way more athletic in high school. He has gradually become a much worse athlete over the last 4 years because of his weight and back issues from college. There's a reason he dropped from being considered a top 5 pick to falling back to the 20-25 range.

Do you not know what 50-75 pounds of weight (not added muscle mostly) and back issues can do to someone's vertical? It absolutely kills it.
In high school he was dunking on everybody.  That ended the moment he entered college.  Why that that is?

I'll tell you why; it's the level of competition.  When you're the biggest and the baddest you don't have to worry about getting blocked and you're actually more athletic than everyone else.  As the competition rises, you don't become less athletic.  The others around you become more athletic.  Makes you look like a different player.

Well obviously that can be true to an extent, but your statement was that he didn't become less athletic. That just isn't true. You aren't understanding what weight can do to someone's athletic ability. Sullinger was way quicker off his feet in college than he is now, and it isn't because of level of competition. He was also way quicker off his feet as a rookie than he is now. It's his weight mostly. What do you think is going to happen to a person who put on the weight Sully has?

Maybe it's because you don't have personal experience with seeing how your vertical can range from added weight that isn't gained from weight training?

I went after your comment because you said he isn't much less athletic. That just isn't true objectively speaking really.

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #28 on: June 11, 2016, 12:05:37 PM »

Offline RedClaw33

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I'm 6'4 and had a 38 inch vertical in high school.....I used to think that being able to dunk with ease meant I was really athletic.  For college I moved south (Florida) and began playing occasionally with some D1 players, most notably Jackie Manuel who played at North Carolina.  The way the D1 players could move was emasculating.  I quickly learned that my explosiveness was dictated by where I was on the court (essentially driving to my right).

Real athletes are genetic freaks and can move and explode from different angles and positions...to say that Murray isn't an athlete is a ridiculous premise.  Watch the tape....he is essentially ambidextrous and even prefers to drive to his "weak" left hand side.  He glides through traffic, spins, and finishes with various release points.  He can dunk in various ways, from various locations on the court.  Watch the highlight clip below.

I'm not saying Murray is a Westbrook level athlete but people are talking about him like he's Fab Melo.  The kid will learn his strengths and apply them on D.  He's got good size at the 1 and solid size for a 2.  Once school is out and he can focus on building his body people will truly know what he is capable of. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Y9C5HGtVq0
2016 Draft Board #3 Pick

Bender>Brown>Dunn>Murray>Hield

Re: Rate Murray athletically based on this Video
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2016, 12:09:51 PM »

Offline CelticsFan166

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How many of you can dunk or could dunk?

The bounce dunks are some of the easiest ones to do if you have timing.  They look great two but I always thought they were on the easier ones to pull off.   The real thing is do you have timing.

I would say he is average to slightly below average in terms of jumping.


Quote
You know who wasnt a good athlete? Paul Pierce.

Pierce had a max vertical of 38".    Don't confuse not jumping high all the time for not having the ability to jump.  This is not a standing vertical.

https://slingersnation.wordpress.com/2010/03/01/a-comparison-with-nba-players-just-how-high-can-the-flyboy-jump/

Google it, can we end the myth of him being a poor NBA athlete.   That is a full ten inches above the NBA average.  He was not the best of his class but hardly the worst.   Is he an athlete next to Vince Carter? Nope.  Sully?  Yes.

Here are the averages by position, the standing vertical for the league is 28" according to ESPN

No step
PG: 29.4
SG: 29.7
SF: 29.7
PF: 28.5
C: 26.8

Max vert:

PG: 34.9
SG: 35
SF: 34.5
PF: 32.8
C: 30.7

I think laypeople who were never tested as a part of a team do not always understand these things.   I wonder how many here have had their vertical tested by a team trainer?
I can dunk, and trust me, off the bounce/backboard dunks are all about the pass/the timing of the pass and otherwise are no harder than a normal dunk. It's not half as impressive as it looks.

Now, do I particularly care in Murray's case? No. People like Curry, Thompson, Deron Williams, Jason Kidd, Steve Nash etc. have had success at the guard position despite lacking athleticism simply by working on their game to the point where they are crafty enough to make a career. Heck, even guys like Jabari Parker (with a torn ACL, nonetheless) who come into the league with a reputation for being unathletic can improve their vertical over time to be considered athletic.