Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?

[TheSundanceKid]

I think there are only 3 or so posters who outright call him a bust already. And they goes thread to thread saying the same thing, get corrected and move to another thread to say the same thing.

I'm a fan of Bender, I like his skills and I like his attitude. If I had to put money on it I would say he'll turn out better than Dunn, Hield or Murray. However that isn't to say it's a certainty, none of these guys are. I will be very interested to hear what happens in the workouts, if Bender can move laterally at the level he supposedly can and if he can shoot well then that should make him a lock fr #3.

However the same goes for Murray or Hield. If Murray can show he can defend, I don't believe he can, then that puts him up there. If Hield can show some extra potential in areas other than shooting maybe he gets it.

I guess I have more faith in Bender to achieve it than the others

[mmmmm]

When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert

Lessee, ... International players from the first round of the last 5 drafts ...

2015 - Porzingis, Hezonja, Milutinov, Osman, Hernangomez (does Mudiay count? He played in China, not the NCAA.) -- Too soon for most of these guys, but Porzingis, Hezonja and Mudiay all seem likely to amount to something.

2014 - Exum, Saric, Nurkic, Caboclo, Capela, Bogdanovic -- Exum was starting to look good before the injuries.  I'm pretty confident Saric will be a beast here but obviously hasn't even come over yet.  Nurkic & Cappella both seem for real.

2013 - Antetokounmpo, Nogueira, Shroeder, Karesev, Gobert, Livio Jean-Charles, Nedovic  -- A good draft for internationals.  Still open question on Jean-Charles and not much from Nedovic, but the others all look to be real NBA players.

2012 - Evan Fournier -- Seems like he's amounted to something.

2011 - Enes Kanter, Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Biyombo, Motiejunas, Mirotic -- everybody in that year except Veseley has proven to be a legit NBA player.

[Tr1boy]

What??  Those guys are less project and proven  .  Dirk? Are you serious. He was single-handed torching USA team in international play

And I'm not talking about guys taken in the 20s, 2nd round

How is that considered "risky" picks?

I'm talking about top 10 calibre euro 'projects' with upside

[fairweatherfan]

What??  Those guys are less project and proven  .  Dirk? Are you serious. He was single-handed torching USA team in international play

And I'm not talking about guys taken in the 20s, 2nd round

How is that considered "risky" picks?

I'm talking about top 10 calibre euro 'projects' with upside. You can include top 15

[Tr1boy]

When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert

Lessee, ... International players from the first round of the last 5 drafts ...

2015 - Porzingis, Hezonja, Milutinov, Osman, Hernangomez (does Mudiay count? He played in China, not the NCAA.) -- Too soon for most of these guys, but Porzingis, Hezonja and Mudiay all seem likely to amount to something.

2014 - Exum, Saric, Nurkic, Caboclo, Capela, Bogdanovic -- Exum was starting to look good before the injuries.  I'm pretty confident Saric will be a beast here but obviously hasn't even come over yet.  Nurkic & Cappella both seem for real.

2013 - Antetokounmpo, Nogueira, Shroeder, Karesev, Gobert, Livio Jean-Charles, Nedovic  -- A good draft for internationals.  Still open question on Jean-Charles and not much from Nedovic, but the others all look to be real NBA players.

2012 - Evan Fournier -- Seems like he's amounted to something.

2011 - Enes Kanter, Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Biyombo, Motiejunas, Mirotic -- everybody in that year except Veseley has proven to be a legit NBA player.

Ridiculous

Giannis was one of the best players in his league (even at his age ) before drafted.

More than 80 percent of the players you listed were drafted in the 20s or higher

I'm talking about someone in "benders" situation.  Unproven , project, upside type of euro project , projected to go top 10 that has amounted to anything

Valenciunas ok
Hezjonja (long ways to go)

[Donoghus]

What??  Those guys are less project and proven  .  Dirk? Are you serious. He was single-handed torching USA team in international play

And I'm not talking about guys taken in the 20s, 2nd round

How is that considered "risky" picks?

I'm talking about top 10 calibre euro 'projects' with upside. You can include top 15

That gave me a solid chuckle. TP.

[PickNRoll]

Right.  Why are we making a list of every Euro player?  Nobody claimed that an entire continent can't play ball.  We claimed that Bender hasn't shown he's a good player.  I don't care about some extrapolated on-court/off-court plus minus mumbo jumbo.  The kid hasn't done anything.

Nowitzki was a stone cold killer in international play, but I think he was more like 21 yrs old at the time.  Parker was a multiple time FIBA MVP.  Bender once made a nice outlet pass you can find on youtube.

[knuckleballer]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

[PhoSita]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

Think of it this way.  You have a skinny teenager sitting on the bench.  He's really talented, but his game is raw and he's still figuring out how to play within the team system, and he gets pushed around by the full grown men your team typically faces.

Now, maybe you'd be inclined to give him time because he has lots of potential, and that potential manifests in occasional bursts of production.

But you know that he's gone after this season.  He's gonna get drafted and some NBA team will buy him out.

So why bother?  You play him token minutes because you want to appease his agent, keep your team attractive to other young players with talent in the future.  You won't invest much of your energy and playing time into him, though.  You have no real incentive to do so.


From what I've read, Bender has consistently impressed talent evaluators at Eurocamps and while playing with other players his age.  He was unimpressive overall playing in an adult men's league for a team with no incentive to feature him or develop him at all.  Still, he had at least a handful of notable performances off the bench. 

Not saying it's invalid to point out that he failed to dominate lesser competition, but there are plenty of caveats for that.  It would certainly be easier to judge his abilities if he had played college ball, but plenty of other guys have come out for the draft with very little prior track record and done very well at the NBA level almost from the get-go (most recently Kristaps and Giannis).

[kozlodoev]

When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert

Lessee, ... International players from the first round of the last 5 drafts ...

2015 - Porzingis, Hezonja, Milutinov, Osman, Hernangomez (does Mudiay count? He played in China, not the NCAA.) -- Too soon for most of these guys, but Porzingis, Hezonja and Mudiay all seem likely to amount to something.

2014 - Exum, Saric, Nurkic, Caboclo, Capela, Bogdanovic -- Exum was starting to look good before the injuries.  I'm pretty confident Saric will be a beast here but obviously hasn't even come over yet.  Nurkic & Cappella both seem for real.

2013 - Antetokounmpo, Nogueira, Shroeder, Karesev, Gobert, Livio Jean-Charles, Nedovic  -- A good draft for internationals.  Still open question on Jean-Charles and not much from Nedovic, but the others all look to be real NBA players.

2012 - Evan Fournier -- Seems like he's amounted to something.

2011 - Enes Kanter, Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Biyombo, Motiejunas, Mirotic -- everybody in that year except Veseley has proven to be a legit NBA player.

It's fantastic that some Euros turned into "real NBA players". However, that's a very low bar.

How many players from this list would you consider in a trade for the #3 pick in this year's draft, straight up?

[Timdawgg]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

Think of it this way.  You have a skinny teenager sitting on the bench.  He's really talented, but his game is raw and he's still figuring out how to play within the team system, and he gets pushed around by the full grown men your team typically faces.

Now, maybe you'd be inclined to give him time because he has lots of potential, and that potential manifests in occasional bursts of production.

But you know that he's gone after this season.  He's gonna get drafted and some NBA team will buy him out.

So why bother?  You play him token minutes because you want to appease his agent, keep your team attractive to other young players with talent in the future.  You won't invest much of your energy and playing time into him, though.  You have no real incentive to do so.

^^^^^^ THIS!!!!!

[PickNRoll]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

I agree with you, but I'll play devil's advocate.  If you watch the games, it's obvious that he's physically outmatched.  He gets muscled and pushed out of the paint in a league that features a lot of big strong centers and forwards.  Once Bender (only 18) grows into his body and adds about 30 pounds of muscle, he'll earn PT.  Then we'll be marveling at the mobility, shooting touch, and passing ability from a 7 footer.   

[kozlodoev]

So why bother?  You play him token minutes because you want to appease his agent, keep your team attractive to other young players with talent in the future.  You won't invest much of your energy and playing time into him, though.  You have no real incentive to do so.

Because you want to win games? And contrary to some opinions, playing your best players gives you the best chance to win games.

[mmmmm]

When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert

Lessee, ... International players from the first round of the last 5 drafts ...

2015 - Porzingis, Hezonja, Milutinov, Osman, Hernangomez (does Mudiay count? He played in China, not the NCAA.) -- Too soon for most of these guys, but Porzingis, Hezonja and Mudiay all seem likely to amount to something.

2014 - Exum, Saric, Nurkic, Caboclo, Capela, Bogdanovic -- Exum was starting to look good before the injuries.  I'm pretty confident Saric will be a beast here but obviously hasn't even come over yet.  Nurkic & Cappella both seem for real.

2013 - Antetokounmpo, Nogueira, Shroeder, Karesev, Gobert, Livio Jean-Charles, Nedovic  -- A good draft for internationals.  Still open question on Jean-Charles and not much from Nedovic, but the others all look to be real NBA players.

2012 - Evan Fournier -- Seems like he's amounted to something.

2011 - Enes Kanter, Valanciunas, Jan Vesely, Biyombo, Motiejunas, Mirotic -- everybody in that year except Veseley has proven to be a legit NBA player.

It's fantastic that some Euros turned into "real NBA players". However, that's a very low bar.

How many players from this list would you consider in a trade for the #3 pick in this year's draft, straight up?

I think that falls, again, under:


with a healthy side of:

[PhoSita]

So why bother?  You play him token minutes because you want to appease his agent, keep your team attractive to other young players with talent in the future.  You won't invest much of your energy and playing time into him, though.  You have no real incentive to do so.

Because you want to win games? And contrary to some opinions, playing your best players gives you the best chance to win games.

Indeed.  Manifestly Dragan was not one of the team's best players. 

But he might have merited more than 10 minutes a game, and he might have taken up a more significant part of the team's game plan, if he weren't guaranteed to head to the U.S. after this season.

The fact that he wasn't instantly one of the best guys on the floor at all times as an 18 year old in a men's league -- albeit a league with a low level of competition -- doesn't concern me that much.

At least not enough to discount everything that I've read about him as far as impressing international scouts whose job it is to project these guys to the NBA.