Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?

[knuckleballer]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

Think of it this way.  You have a skinny teenager sitting on the bench.  He's really talented, but his game is raw and he's still figuring out how to play within the team system, and he gets pushed around by the full grown men your team typically faces.

Now, maybe you'd be inclined to give him time because he has lots of potential, and that potential manifests in occasional bursts of production.

But you know that he's gone after this season.  He's gonna get drafted and some NBA team will buy him out.

So why bother?  You play him token minutes because you want to appease his agent, keep your team attractive to other young players with talent in the future.  You won't invest much of your energy and playing time into him, though.  You have no real incentive to do so.

I hear what you are saying, but still I would expect a guy with his supposed talent to force his way into a leading role on that team.  The incentive for the coach is to win games.  That league isn't close to the NBA.   I like his raw upside, but to gamble on him at #3 and turn down good players... I don't feel comfortable with it.

[Eddie20]

What??  Those guys are less project and proven  .  Dirk? Are you serious. He was single-handed torching USA team in international play

See this is what happens when you speak without knowing much about what you're talking about. The game you're referring to was against high school players. If memory serves me I think the best player the US had the game was Al Harrington, but again this was a long time ago. You make it sound as though Dirk was going up against the Dream Team.

[max215]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

Think of it this way.  You have a skinny teenager sitting on the bench.  He's really talented, but his game is raw and he's still figuring out how to play within the team system, and he gets pushed around by the full grown men your team typically faces.

Now, maybe you'd be inclined to give him time because he has lots of potential, and that potential manifests in occasional bursts of production.

But you know that he's gone after this season.  He's gonna get drafted and some NBA team will buy him out.

So why bother?  You play him token minutes because you want to appease his agent, keep your team attractive to other young players with talent in the future.  You won't invest much of your energy and playing time into him, though.  You have no real incentive to do so.

I hear what you are saying, but still I would expect a guy with his supposed talent to force his way into a leading role on that team.  The incentive for the coach is to win games.  That league isn't close to the NBA.   I like his raw upside, but to gamble on him at #3 and turn down good players... I don't feel comfortable with it.

The problem is that people use the same justification for hating EVERY Euro. This is what people said last year about Porzingis and Hezonja, and it's what they'll next year about Ntilikina (DX's top rated Euro in 2017, who barely plays but is projected to go 5th). With Euros, it's the same people year after year that will never believe in them.

[max215]

What??  Those guys are less project and proven  .  Dirk? Are you serious. He was single-handed torching USA team in international play

See this is what happens when you speak without knowing much about what you're talking about. The game you're referring to was against high school players. If memory serves me I think the best player the US had the game was Al Harrington, but again this was a long time ago. You make it sound as though Dirk was going up against the Dream Team.

And Bender has been dominant in junior competitions, if my memory serves me correctly.

[mmmmm]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

LOL - only the tiniest amount of hyperbole there!

He's averaging 5.42 points and 2.69 rebounds in 13.7 minutes per game.

He comes off the bench because he is a scrawny 18 year old kid and the coach has a roster loaded with much older, established veteran players on which he is depending to win games.

None of that means he is on the verge of greatness, of course.

[hpantazo]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

Think of it this way.  You have a skinny teenager sitting on the bench.  He's really talented, but his game is raw and he's still figuring out how to play within the team system, and he gets pushed around by the full grown men your team typically faces.

Now, maybe you'd be inclined to give him time because he has lots of potential, and that potential manifests in occasional bursts of production.

But you know that he's gone after this season.  He's gonna get drafted and some NBA team will buy him out.

So why bother?  You play him token minutes because you want to appease his agent, keep your team attractive to other young players with talent in the future.  You won't invest much of your energy and playing time into him, though.  You have no real incentive to do so.

I hear what you are saying, but still I would expect a guy with his supposed talent to force his way into a leading role on that team.  The incentive for the coach is to win games.  That league isn't close to the NBA.   I like his raw upside, but to gamble on him at #3 and turn down good players... I don't feel comfortable with it.

Basically it's because, whether it's the NBA or a European pro league, Bender is 2-3 years away from being able to physically hang with bigger guys at his position on the floor. The talent is there , the potential for greatness is there , his body and his experience is not there yet. Whoever drafts him has to be ok waiting 2-3 years on him. Until recently he wasn't even planning on coming over to the NBA next season.

[Eddie20]

What??  Those guys are less project and proven  .  Dirk? Are you serious. He was single-handed torching USA team in international play

See this is what happens when you speak without knowing much about what you're talking about. The game you're referring to was against high school players. If memory serves me I think the best player the US had the game was Al Harrington, but again this was a long time ago. You make it sound as though Dirk was going up against the Dream Team.

And Bender has been dominant in junior competitions, if my memory serves me correctly.

Pretty sure that if anyone watches the video below and compares Bender objectively to a Pau or Dirk at 18 there is very little difference in the overall skill level. Now this doesn't mean that Bender's progression doesn't stall and he won't become a bust, but rather at this juncture in development he's on a similar path, give or take, to those star international players. That's why he's rated so highly by the masses and to dismiss him completely based on playing time is being shortsighted as to how international teams operate. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SvJMOgxSHU

[knuckleballer]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

LOL - only the tiniest amount of hyperbole there!

He's averaging 5.42 points and 2.69 rebounds in 13.7 minutes per game.

He comes off the bench because he is a scrawny 18 year old kid and the coach has a roster loaded with much older, established veteran players on which he is depending to win games.

None of that means he is on the verge of greatness, of course.

Wow!!!!  5.4 and 2.7 is soooooo much better.  I'm so full of hyperbole despite quoting stats directly from draftexpress.  Shake my mother f'ing head.  Lol.  Those stats still suck.

[hpantazo]

I think the main question with Bender regarding how much of a risk he really is, is not what is his ceiling, which most generally agree is very high , like Dirk or Pau high, but what is his floor? I think his floor is a more aggressive KO, which is not bad at all. That would make drafting him a low risk, high reward choice imo.

[footey]

I am on board with trusting Danny's judgment on Bender. My concern arises from watching the Weaknesses Video posted by Draft Express, which makes him look simply awful.  I realize they do that for all prospects, but it is nonetheless painful to watch. A lot of the video seems a bit dated, but I just can't tell for sure.

[PhoSita]

I think the main question with Bender regarding how much of a risk he really is, is not what is his ceiling, which most generally agree is very high , like Dirk or Pau high, but what is his floor? I think his floor is a more aggressive KO, which is not bad at all. That would make drafting him a low risk, high reward choice imo.

I'd say the question of his floor depends on whether his jumper is real -- i.e. NBA three point range when spotting up and open -- and whether he can add enough muscle to defend NBA caliber 4s and 5s.

If those two things hold, worst case he's Channing Frye with more mobility in the open floor.  Sort of a Frye / T. Zeller hybrid.

I'd say that's a poor outcome for a top 5 pick, but still pretty valuable.

[Tr1boy]

Bender is a set shooter, like how jerebko is. He can't dribble stop and pop.   So either drive and try to finish or shoot the set shot

Lacks midrange game

[mmmmm]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

LOL - only the tiniest amount of hyperbole there!

He's averaging 5.42 points and 2.69 rebounds in 13.7 minutes per game.

He comes off the bench because he is a scrawny 18 year old kid and the coach has a roster loaded with much older, established veteran players on which he is depending to win games.

None of that means he is on the verge of greatness, of course.

Wow!!!!  5.4 and 2.7 is soooooo much better.  I'm so full of hyperbole despite quoting stats directly from draftexpress.  Shake my mother f'ing head.  Lol.  Those stats still suck.

Tsk-tsk. Language.

Yep, those stats still suck.   Your analysis is deep and full of insight.   Jonathan Ginovy should hire you to work at DraftExpress.

[knuckleballer]

I don't know much about any European basketball league.  That said, I have a tough time understanding how a European coach can routinely bench a guy who is on the verge of greatness in a much higher level of play in the NBA.  What am I missing?  The guy is averaging 2 points and one rebound on a team that I assume is trying to win games in a far inferior league.

LOL - only the tiniest amount of hyperbole there!

He's averaging 5.42 points and 2.69 rebounds in 13.7 minutes per game.

He comes off the bench because he is a scrawny 18 year old kid and the coach has a roster loaded with much older, established veteran players on which he is depending to win games.

None of that means he is on the verge of greatness, of course.

Wow!!!!  5.4 and 2.7 is soooooo much better.  I'm so full of hyperbole despite quoting stats directly from draftexpress.  Shake my mother f'ing head.  Lol.  Those stats still suck.

Tsk-tsk. Language.

Yep, those stats still suck.   Your analysis is deep and full of insight.   Jonathan Ginovy should hire you to work at DraftExpress.

I quoted stats directly from Givony's website.  I'm sorry that upset you.

[mmmmm]

I think the main question with Bender regarding how much of a risk he really is, is not what is his ceiling, which most generally agree is very high , like Dirk or Pau high, but what is his floor? I think his floor is a more aggressive KO, which is not bad at all. That would make drafting him a low risk, high reward choice imo.

I think his floor is a bit different than KO.  I think his floor is what he's doing a lot of right now, which is defensive substitute off the bench. 

He has some similarities to KO in that yes, he's a 7 footer who can shoot threes.  But KO's core value add is his skill on offense as a passing big man in the high post.   Bender has that as part of his upside, but his base core value add is as a defender who can switch on the pick & roll.