Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?

[TheSundanceKid]

All wrong.

http://www.basketballforum.com/sacramento-kings/50512-kings-sign-bojko-mladenov.html

My point here is that trying to cast every obscure European seven footer who can walk and chew gum as the proverbial basketball "renaissance man" with guard skills is in fashion. If you're a scout or especially an agent, it's good business.

However, this often obfuscates the simple fact that you have to be able to play your position first, and everything else is gravy.

That was from 2003 right? I'd hope scouts have come a long way on foreign prospects since then. As well as the fact foreign competition has gotten better as well.

In recent years Vesely is the only true bust from Europe picked in the lottery. Bender is much more solid a prospect than you are willing to admit

[Granath]

Unlike seemingly all of the rest of CelticsBlog, I haven't seen the kid play so I can't make an informed judgement. Therefore I'll have to rely on Danny's expertise.

By the way, do any of you have jobs? How do you get so much time off to go scout a player in Europe who plays 5 minutes per game? Please let me know your secret so I can start to enjoy the same privilege!

[Boris Badenov]

Unlike seemingly all of the rest of CelticsBlog, I haven't seen the kid play so I can't make an informed judgement. Therefore I'll have to rely on Danny's expertise.

By the way, do any of you have jobs? How do you get so much time off to go scout a player in Europe who plays 5 minutes per game? Please let me know your secret so I can start to enjoy the same privilege!

TP.

[kozlodoev]

All wrong.

http://www.basketballforum.com/sacramento-kings/50512-kings-sign-bojko-mladenov.html

My point here is that trying to cast every obscure European seven footer who can walk and chew gum as the proverbial basketball "renaissance man" with guard skills is in fashion. If you're a scout or especially an agent, it's good business.

However, this often obfuscates the simple fact that you have to be able to play your position first, and everything else is gravy.

That was from 2003 right? I'd hope scouts have come a long way on foreign prospects since then. As well as the fact foreign competition has gotten better as well.

In recent years Vesely is the only true bust from Europe picked in the lottery. Bender is much more solid a prospect than you are willing to admit

Is that what you want with the third pick? A "not a bust"? If Bender turns into an Enes Kanter in terms of production, should we be happy because he's "not a bust"?

[crimson_stallion]

Ive been against bender pretty much this whole year.

But that has just been my standard issue Euro-fear. I didnt want GA either.

I know almost nothing about him. Hes a huge mystery. However I dont understand how people can be so strongly against a mystery. I think we can all trust DA to do his HW to the point where he wont take the guy unless he has a good feel for him. The upside with Bender is obvious. He is really big and young and supposedly has a terrific mental makeup. I understand how you can prefer other players. I can see falling in love with Murray or Dunn or even Brown or Hield, but I want to know what Im missing in Bender. what info is out there that suggests this guy is gonna be a big bust?

Genuinely curious here, trying to form a legit evaluation of the guy.

For me it's because I see Bender is a really high risk (and long term) prospect for a number of reasons:

1) The fact we haven't seen him play meaningful minutes against other lottery candidates
2) The fact that his body is not NBA ready
3) The fact that he has skills, but they are generally in need of significant development

Firstly, it meant a lot to me to be able to see Pierce and KG retire as Celtics, and that is something we sacrificed in order to get this Brooklyn pick. 

Secondly, Boston NEVER gets top 3 picks - it's something that typically happens once a generation.

Thirdly, there are never any guaranteed that you'll be able to get quality talent through free agency or through trades - and Boston in particular has struggled to do that.

With all of the above taken into consideration, it would absolutely pain me to see this pick wasted on a guy who ends up becoming a bust.  If you are Philly or Sacramento (and get high picks almost every year) then you can afford to gamble on a couple of high picks here and there.  We don't really have that luxury.

Lets say we bust out on free agency again, and then bust out on trades again.  That would suck.  But if we can add a mature, NBA ready talent (like Hield, Dunn or Poeltl) who can contribute right away, then I will be content knowing that at least we have done something to improve our team.

Drafting a high risk player like Bender will mean that if we fail to make a big move in free agency or in trades, we're putting all our hope in to a high risk player who may not contribute anything for years (if at all).  That would feel like a massive waste of a #3 pick, because god only knows when we will ever get one again.

If we want to take a gamble on a high risk, high reward big man then I understand that - but there are other's in the draft (like Labissiere, Maker and Ivaca Zubac) and it's almost certain that at least one of those guys will be available with the Mavs or Celtics pick.  I just don't see the sense in taking such a huge gamble with what may well be the highest pick we're gong to get in 10 years.

I would understand it more if it was for a guy with superstar potential, but I just don't think Bender has that.  I think he has the potential to be a good starter, maybe a fringe all-star (a Horford type) at best. 

I feel that Hield and Dunn have two of the highest floors in this draft, and yet I also think both guys have the potential to be perennial All-Stars...so for that reason I just don't like the idea of drafting bender over those guys.  I don't think his upside is high enough to justify the risk.

I don't dislike Bender as a prospect - I just don't think he's the right prospect for us right now.

[jambr380]

Ive been against bender pretty much this whole year.

But that has just been my standard issue Euro-fear. I didnt want GA either.

I know almost nothing about him. Hes a huge mystery. However I dont understand how people can be so strongly against a mystery. I think we can all trust DA to do his HW to the point where he wont take the guy unless he has a good feel for him. The upside with Bender is obvious. He is really big and young and supposedly has a terrific mental makeup. I understand how you can prefer other players. I can see falling in love with Murray or Dunn or even Brown or Hield, but I want to know what Im missing in Bender. what info is out there that suggests this guy is gonna be a big bust?

Genuinely curious here, trying to form a legit evaluation of the guy.

For me it's because I see Bender is a really high risk (and long term) prospect for a number of reasons:

1) The fact we haven't seen him play meaningful minutes against other lottery candidates
2) The fact that his body is not NBA ready
3) The fact that he has skills, but they are generally in need of significant development

Firstly, it meant a lot to me to be able to see Pierce and KG retire as Celtics, and that is something we sacrificed in order to get this Brooklyn pick. 

Secondly, Boston NEVER gets top 3 picks - it's something that typically happens once a generation.

Thirdly, there are never any guaranteed that you'll be able to get quality talent through free agency or through trades - and Boston in particular has struggled to do that.

With all of the above taken into consideration, it would absolutely pain me to see this pick wasted on a guy who ends up becoming a bust.  If you are Philly or Sacramento (and get high picks almost every year) then you can afford to gamble on a couple of high picks here and there.  We don't really have that luxury.

Lets say we bust out on free agency again, and then bust out on trades again.  That would suck.  But if we can add a mature, NBA ready talent (like Hield, Dunn or Poeltl) who can contribute right away, then I will be content knowing that at least we have done something to improve our team.

Drafting a high risk player like Bender will mean that if we fail to make a big move in free agency or in trades, we're putting all our hope in to a high risk player who may not contribute anything for years (if at all).  That would feel like a massive waste of a #3 pick, because god only knows when we will ever get one again.

If we want to take a gamble on a high risk, high reward big man then I understand that - but there are other's in the draft (like Labissiere, Maker and Ivaca Zubac) and it's almost certain that at least one of those guys will be available with the Mavs or Celtics pick.  I just don't see the sense in taking such a huge gamble with what may well be the highest pick we're gong to get in 10 years.

I would understand it more if it was for a guy with superstar potential, but I just don't think Bender has that.  I think he has the potential to be a good starter, maybe a fringe all-star (a Horford type) at best. 

I feel that Hield and Dunn have two of the highest floors in this draft, and yet I also think both guys have the potential to be perennial All-Stars...so for that reason I just don't like the idea of drafting bender over those guys.  I don't think his upside is high enough to justify the risk.

I don't dislike Bender as a prospect - I just don't think he's the right prospect for us right now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZpIog7e-R4

Again, wish we could embed videos again, but Hield/Dunn=Boat, Bender=Mystery Box. People become enamored with things they know little about. Bender may become an amazing player, but people are definitely jumping the ship on anointing him so.

[LilRip]

I know nothing about Bender but if DA loves him, I wouldn't be against it. His potential is tantalizing.

A question I want answered is: how is his work ethic? For a player who still needs a lot of development, work ethic becomes crucial. This is why I'm confident in a guy like Smart. Guys (with high potential) who work hard generally get better.

[max215]

I know nothing about Bender but if DA loves him, I wouldn't be against it. His potential is tantalizing.

A question I want answered is: how is his work ethic? For a player who still needs a lot of development, work ethic becomes crucial. This is why I'm confident in a guy like Smart. Guys (with high potential) who work hard generally get better.

By all accounts, his work ethic is excellent. This article is pretty helpful if you want to learn about him:

http://sports.yahoo.com/news/european-dispatch--getting-to-know-dragan-bender-195451386.html

[ashanm10]

How about we all wait for the WORKOUTS of all the prospects before we make a million threads about every single prospect lol....unless any of you have been to or watched their games and thoroughly scouted and evaluated this years prospects game, then please do share your take.

We are best off making threads about possible trades and directions we want our team to go in as well as how we can improve our in game plans

Let's just wait for workouts to have taken place and then we can try and guess who we want xD I would assume that will be around first/second week of June. Until then, these threads are basically repetitive lol ^^

Bender is an interesting player and now that Dirk is at the exit, the NBA deserves another similar and possibly improved Novitzki ^^ hope whoever that Euro would be could be on the Celtics and I really wish we could see it on the face of Bender but we will just have to wait for now I have thus enjoyed your opinions here ^^

[chambers]

I think there's a separation between Bender lovers/ haters that stems from one basic preference:

The willingness to gamble on a potential franchise guy.
The lovers see his size, stroke, agility, footwork and work ethic and see that there's potential to be a franchise player somewhere there.

The haters don't want this gamble. They want someone who is going to contribute earlier and isn't as much of a risk.

Personally for me, Simmons and Ingram were the only two in the top 5 that were pretty much a lock to be All Stars.
The rest of the draft (at least the ncaa guys) is solid but there aren't any other standout 'franchise' guys.

Bender, at 18 yrs old, is a big risk, but for the lovers, he's worth it because we desperately need a franchise player.
Humans with his physical attributes and mental aptitude do not come around very often and that's what's worth taking a risk on.

Basically for me, I'd be happy with Buddy Hield and he could certainly be an All Star. However I'm not really convinced he has the physical make up to be a franchise guy. Bender has that and it's in his size, length and agility-however risky that may be.

[max215]

I think there's a separation between Bender lovers/ haters that stems from one basic preference:

The willingness to gamble on a potential franchise guy.
The lovers see his size, stroke, agility, footwork and work ethic and see that there's potential to be a franchise player somewhere there.

The haters don't want this gamble. They want someone who is going to contribute earlier and isn't as much of a risk.

Personally for me, Simmons and Ingram were the only two in the top 5 that were pretty much a lock to be All Stars.
The rest of the draft (at least the ncaa guys) is solid but there aren't any other standout 'franchise' guys.

Bender, at 18 yrs old, is a big risk, but for the lovers, he's worth it because we desperately need a franchise player.
Humans with his physical attributes and mental aptitude do not come around very often and that's what's worth taking a risk on.

Basically for me, I'd be happy with Buddy Hield and he could certainly be an All Star. However I'm not really convinced he has the physical make up to be a franchise guy. Bender has that and it's in his size, length and agility-however risky that may be.

Very good post, TP. I think we agree completely on this as well. I want Bender; I'm willing to take the risk. I'd also be happy with Buddy for the same reasons.

[ashanm10]

I think there's a separation between Bender lovers/ haters that stems from one basic preference:

The willingness to gamble on a potential franchise guy.
The lovers see his size, stroke, agility, footwork and work ethic and see that there's potential to be a franchise player somewhere there.

The haters don't want this gamble. They want someone who is going to contribute earlier and isn't as much of a risk.

Personally for me, Simmons and Ingram were the only two in the top 5 that were pretty much a lock to be All Stars.
The rest of the draft (at least the ncaa guys) is solid but there aren't any other standout 'franchise' guys.

Bender, at 18 yrs old, is a big risk, but for the lovers, he's worth it because we desperately need a franchise player.
Humans with his physical attributes and mental aptitude do not come around very often and that's what's worth taking a risk on.

Basically for me, I'd be happy with Buddy Hield and he could certainly be an All Star. However I'm not really convinced he has the physical make up to be a franchise guy. Bender has that and it's in his size, length and agility-however risky that may be.

Yup this^

It's the draft fellas...let's wait for workouts now and see I believe we should always be in the direction of bringing potential franchise players and then the strongest support cast players for those franchise pillars. So far we got a great group

[mr. dee]

You draft project Euros at mid 1st-2nd rounders. Gambling on a prospect without an NBA ready skillset with the top 5 lottery pick is a dangerous territory. Players like Dirk and Gasol already have NBA-ready skillset when they were drafted. Even some Euros like Kanter, Rubio and Alex Len just amounted to role players, despite having an NBA skillset.

[ederson]

I think there's a separation between Bender lovers/ haters that stems from one basic preference:

The willingness to gamble on a potential franchise guy.
The lovers see his size, stroke, agility, footwork and work ethic and see that there's potential to be a franchise player somewhere there.

The haters don't want this gamble. They want someone who is going to contribute earlier and isn't as much of a risk.

Exactly. It`s the third pick. Even if his ceiling is  correctly evaluated the risk is too high and today he is very far from being an NBA bench player.  In my mind you don`t gamble with such a high pick.

I`ve read a lot of posts "i don`t like anyone not named Simmons/Ingram so i want Bender although i`ve never seen him".  I honestly can`t see any logic in this.

[TheSundanceKid]

All wrong.

http://www.basketballforum.com/sacramento-kings/50512-kings-sign-bojko-mladenov.html

My point here is that trying to cast every obscure European seven footer who can walk and chew gum as the proverbial basketball "renaissance man" with guard skills is in fashion. If you're a scout or especially an agent, it's good business.

However, this often obfuscates the simple fact that you have to be able to play your position first, and everything else is gravy.

That was from 2003 right? I'd hope scouts have come a long way on foreign prospects since then. As well as the fact foreign competition has gotten better as well.

In recent years Vesely is the only true bust from Europe picked in the lottery. Bender is much more solid a prospect than you are willing to admit

Is that what you want with the third pick? A "not a bust"? If Bender turns into an Enes Kanter in terms of production, should we be happy because he's "not a bust"?

I want the best chance to be an All star. I look at it like this, there will be a hidden gem later in the draft, there will be someone else who develops way beyond their perceived ceiling. With the 3rd pick I want to end up with a top 5 player from the draft.
Maybe it's because we know more about the flaws in others games but Hield and Murray and Dunn all have fundamental limitations that make me think they won't end up top 5 talents in this draft. Defence, defence and agility, handles respectively.
For me Bender is scouted as having those fundamentals in his game. A technically sound defender, good shot mechanics, quick, agile feet and a mental makeup that will help him progress. That's what I got from scouting videos and things I've read.
Come workout time it may turn out my views were unfounded and Bender is none of those things. I doubt it but of course it's possible.
You can work on a players body, even James Young managed that. It's harder to teach fundamentals at the NBA level, something Young is also proving! So I choose the guy with the fundamentals and the mental game to improve. That's why I think his floor isn't as low as some think. That's why I think he'll progress as fast or faster than the other prospects at #3