Author Topic: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?  (Read 22553 times)

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Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #15 on: May 18, 2016, 02:26:57 PM »

Offline Eddie20

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Omg .  Someone needs to ban "bender" from this forum

The guy is the opposite of proven

Has good physical measurements , quick and some decent games under his belt

Bit where is the "substance". Basically we draft a project and take all the risks associated with it

When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......


This might be you if we draft him...


Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #16 on: May 18, 2016, 02:29:45 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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So what ive gathered is this:

He is too much of an unknown to justify selecting 3rd when there are surefire contributors like Hield, Dunn, Murray, or a proven guy via trade.

I can understand that.

Still not sure of how Id evaluate him, but I trust Ainge enough that if come draft day we select Dragan Bender Ill be confident that Ainge has adequate information to make that decision in confidence. Although he did select Fab Melo, Jajuan Johnson, JR Giddens and James Young, so who knows.


Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #17 on: May 18, 2016, 02:30:38 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Omg .  Someone needs to ban "bender" from this forum

The guy is the opposite of proven

Has good physical measurements , quick and some decent games under his belt

Bit where is the "substance". Basically we draft a project and take all the risks associated with it

When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......


This might be you if we draft him...


Porzingis and GA were both framed as projects. Off the top of my head at least one of the Gasol brothers was a project, but I dont remember if Pau came into the league as a project.

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #18 on: May 18, 2016, 02:33:19 PM »

Offline TheTruth34

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When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #19 on: May 18, 2016, 02:34:46 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert
you could throw valunciunas in there.

The only highly rated Euro big not to work out in recent memory would be Vesely.

but thats all off my head.

Actually, I think id include Kanter as a bust. Id be really dissapointed if we got Enes Kanter 3rd overall.

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #20 on: May 18, 2016, 02:35:29 PM »

Offline Quetzalcoatl

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Omg .  Someone needs to ban "bender" from this forum

The guy is the opposite of proven

Has good physical measurements , quick and some decent games under his belt

Bit where is the "substance". Basically we draft a project and take all the risks associated with it

When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......


This might be you if we draft him...


Porzingis and GA were both framed as projects. Off the top of my head at least one of the Gasol brothers was a project, but I dont remember if Pau came into the league as a project.

About 1/3rd of people thought he would be good away (like me, check my posting history), 1/3rd thought he was a project and 1/3rd thought he would bust.  However, unlike Bender, a bunch of articles came out right around this time last year where people thought he might even go 1 or 2 overall.

http://www.sportingnews.com/nba/news/kristaps-porzingis-could-go-as-high-as-no-2-in-nba-draft/nv4rf7mkzpo6148r8y57dw8x3
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2015/6/13/8775675/kristaps-porzingis-had-an-amazing-workout-against-no-one
http://www.lakersnation.com/lakers-rumors-kristaps-porzingis-giving-team-something-to-ponder-at-no-2/2015/06/13/

etc there are hundreds of articles like that.  There was a clear top 4 last year that were all jockeying with each other, compared to this year who has a top 2.  However, I think that Bender and Murray will both be really good and are that next tier.  I just wouldn't draft either of them over Simmons or Ingram.

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #21 on: May 18, 2016, 02:45:07 PM »

Offline mmmmm

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It's the lack of production. Here's his game log:

http://basketball.realgm.com/player/Dragan-Bender/GameLogs/41582/All#

I trust Danny, but nothing suggests that this kid is a good player right now. It's all about developing his raw skills into production. At #3, you hope for something other than a project.

I disagree with that statement.  There is lots to suggest that he is a good player right now.  You just may not be personally aware of it.   

Logically, scouts wouldn't rate him as highly as they have been doing for some time now if there were not _something_ to suggest he is a good player.   

There are vids of highlights of Maccabi Tel Aviv games that you could watch, assuming you have time to sift through them to find all the minutes that have Bender on the floor.  I don't blame you for not wanting to do that.  But that doesn't mean that evidence isn't there.  And the evidence, when you go through it, suggests that he is very often being used as a defensive substitution, who has a lot of value for his defense.  It suggests that he is indeed, as reports have indicated, a very good and tenacious perimeter defender for such a tall player, with quick feet and a good feel for the game.   It also suggests that he is very low on the offensive USG totem pole.   That's not surprising when you realize that team is dominated by veteran 'stars' like Landesberg (26 years old), Mekel (28), Rochestie (30) & Mbakwe (27).  Most of his plays seem to be either on transition plays where he was the clear breakaway big or last-option 3PT shots.   He doesn't get anything run for him in the half-court.

Bender's minutes are modest (though just under 14 mpg out of a 40 minute game is decent) and his USG is low so his counting stats are, indeed, underwhelming.  He doesn't have a ton of points or rebounds.   But in the minutes that he is playing and the usage he is getting, he at least has been effective.  His shooting (58.9% eFG) and scoring (61.7% TS) efficiencies are very good and he's posted an impressive 6.2% BLK%.                             

When Bender has been on the floor, that team has had a net rating of +22.2 points per 100, second best rating on the team.

Those are all things that suggest he is a good player right now.   That doesn't mean he is necessarily the best choice for the #3 pick.   But my point is simply that, just because you (and a lot of other fans here) aren't aware of evidence about how good he is doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #22 on: May 18, 2016, 02:46:39 PM »

Offline alewilliam789

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I mean I calculated his per 36 stats in the Israeli league just by multiplying his average by 3 because he averaged 12 minutes per game already. Not the most accurate, but per 36 he averaged 12.9 points, 6.9 rebounds , 1.8 Assists per game, 2.07 blocks, 1.6 steals, 1.8 turnovers, and 6.3 fouls per game on 39% from behind the arc, 72% from the freethrow line, and 47% from the field. Clearly he does each these of things at varying rates so this may not be completely accurate, but it gives us an rough look at how his stats would look if he continues to produce at the rate he was when he played.
Really improved his play in with Maccabi Tel Aviv. Those stats are actually pretty enticing considering he average 2 blocks per game with a 39% from the arc. Clearly needs to become a better rebounder, but 7 per game isn't too bad for a skinny 18 yo stretch 4 prospect that generally played on the perimeter on offense.
Scary that he averaged so many fouls and that's probably why he didn't see the floor as much as he should have. 2 assists per game is pretty good considering his size, but also averaged 1.8 turnovers as well, but that should improve as he matures and learns.
He is very nimble on his feet and is very fast. Needs to develop a better post game, but I think he will as he gains more weight because he's shown a nice little hook.
Considering the disparity of talent between 2 and 3 I say we take Bender because he is has the best chance to become a star in our system. Stop thinking about how great he will be just solely based on his measurables and stats, but how well he will fit into our system.
He will stretch the floor, run in transition, can make the passes needed, add a lob target that Isaiah can throw it up too, and will eventually make our defense better with his shot blocking, intensity, and toughness. I say grab him and hope he develops. At worst he gives us a solid starter.

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #23 on: May 18, 2016, 02:49:11 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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Q, but to be fair, porzingas came into the nba at the age of 20. a lot more could be evaluated about his potential.

bender will be 18 when he plays his first nba game. if bender were to NOT enter the draft and then reapply in 1.5 to 2 years, then we would have a lot more information on which to base our opinions.

porzingas was more of a known player. bender is harder to decide on since we have such slim evidence.

i am on record as thinking he may be a star, and he may turn out to be the the best player in this draft. or he may bust. the trouble i am having is that is it really, really hard to judge which fate awaits him.

i would have zero concerns about drafting bender at 6 or above. zero. but he wont last that long, i think, since his potential is so high.
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Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #24 on: May 18, 2016, 02:49:21 PM »

Offline Eja117

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When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert
Fornier, Kleiza, Gortat, Belineli, Asik....there was this 19 year old kid from Germany once. He turned out ok.

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2016, 02:51:26 PM »

Offline TheTruth34

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Actually, I think id include Kanter as a bust. Id be really dissapointed if we got Enes Kanter 3rd overall.

Was just throwing out a couple Euro project bigs that have turned into legitimate NBA players.  Kanter averaged 13 and 8 in 21 MPG for the Thunder this season in his age 23 season.  You could say he has not lived up to expectations relative to draft position.  'Bust' might be overstating it. 

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2016, 02:51:32 PM »

Offline Lucky17

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When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert

Antetokounmpo and Schroder are two others.
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Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2016, 02:53:04 PM »

Online hwangjini_1

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When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert
Fornier, Kleiza, Gortat, Belineli, Asik....there was this 19 year old kid from Germany once. He turned out ok.
this is really much to easy.

http://www.nbadraft.net/top-30-international-nba-players-all-time

triboy, why the heck didnt you do your normal job of research before posting such a banality?
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Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2016, 02:53:57 PM »

Offline fairweatherfan

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When was the last euro project that amounted to anything in the NBA. ....waiting.......

Enes Kanter, Rudy Gobert

Antetokounmpo and Schroder are two others.

Tony Parker. 

Re: Can Someone Emphatically Against Bender Explain Why?
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2016, 02:55:49 PM »

Offline Ilikesports17

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Actually, I think id include Kanter as a bust. Id be really dissapointed if we got Enes Kanter 3rd overall.

Was just throwing out a couple Euro project bigs that have turned into legitimate NBA players.  Kanter averaged 13 and 8 in 21 MPG for the Thunder this season in his age 23 season.  You could say he has not lived up to expectations relative to draft position.  'Bust' might be overstating it.
You are correct. He got Utah a pretty decent haul, signed a max deal and is playing big minutes on a title contender, so the bust title is certainly a bit much.