Does Simmons' draft value fall after this week?

[saltlover]

Draft Express came out with a new mock today and Simmons was moved to the second spot. I am curious if this is Givony's opinion or if a league insider indicated that Simmons was slipping.

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/why-ben-simmons-isn-t-the-top-prospect-in-the-2016-nba-draft-190023711.html

It changed in the Vertical mock, which is a collaboration between Marks and Givony, too. I think league sources are probably indicating that sentiment is changing.

This sounds like a lot of the criticism that was leveled at Wiggins in 2014.  Kansas made the tournament, but left quickly, and was generally an underwhelming team most of the season.  Parker started becoming a trendy option for #1 overall.  Wiggins was picked, and clearly he was the more talented player. 

I do think Simmons served himself poorly in going to LSU, who helped to enable some of this selfish tendencies.  But really, when his floor is 6'10" Rajon Rondo, how could you not want that?

I've liked Ingram better all along, so this is trend is not hugely surprising to me. As for Wiggins, it's starting to look like Jabari may be the better prospect, so maybe those second thoughts were justified.

No it is not looking like that at all.

[CelticSooner]

If the C's end up in the top 2 they can't go wrong with either Simmons or Ingram. I think Ingram fits this teams current needs more tho unless Durant wants to try out green.

[mmmmm]

This sounds like a lot of the criticism that was leveled at Wiggins in 2014.  Kansas made the tournament, but left quickly, and was generally an underwhelming team most of the season.  Parker started becoming a trendy option for #1 overall.  Wiggins was picked, and clearly he was the more talented player. 

I do think Simmons served himself poorly in going to LSU, who helped to enable some of this selfish tendencies.  But really, when his floor is 6'10" Rajon Rondo, how could you not want that?

I've liked Ingram better all along, so this is trend is not hugely surprising to me. As for Wiggins, it's starting to look like Jabari may be the better prospect, so maybe those second thoughts were justified.

On what are you basing that assertion?

[KGs Knee]

As for Wiggins, it's starting to look like Jabari may be the better prospect, so maybe those second thoughts were justified.

No it is not looking like that at all.

I'd say that at this point it is still too close to call.  Parker has really come on of late, and is showing a bit more rounded overall game.  Wiggins has the seeming ability to be a more potent scorer.  I could see either being the 'better' player, long-term.

[crimson_stallion]

As for Wiggins, it's starting to look like Jabari may be the better prospect, so maybe those second thoughts were justified.

No it is not looking like that at all.

I'd say that at this point it is still too close to call.  Parker has really come on of late, and is showing a bit more rounded overall game.  Wiggins has the seeming ability to be a more potent scorer.  I could see either being the 'better' player, long-term.

To me, I see Wiggins as a similar type of player to Demar Derozan, albeit with a better outside shot.

Parker reminds me more of a less athletic version of Rudy Gay. 

I think both have the potential to be good players, but the difference is that Wiggins is already a 20 PPG scorer with strong defensive potential. 

Parker is a guy you hope can become a 20 PPG scorer, with minimal defensive potential.  Probably more skilled all around then Wiggins (in terms of his passing, rebounding, etc) and Wiggins is a little more raw, but to me that's all the more reason why Wiggins has so much more potential. 

Way I see it Wiggins is still very raw and he is STILL a 20 PPG scorer. Once he starts realising his potential and refining his game there is no telling how good he could become.

Parker could be good, but I don't think he'll be great.

Actually Wiggins reminds me a little of Dominique Wilkins. 

[mctyson]

The only way the draft value falls based on not playing is if the only person that could conceivably catch you has a monster tournament.  In other words if Ingram goes off in multiple games he could pass Simmons, but that would be more about Ingram passing Simmons than Simmons falling.  And I'm not saying Ingram can pass Simmons, only that he is the only guy that could possibly do it.

Pretty much this.

Also keep in mind that we're still in "nitpicking & tear down" season.  Once these guys start having the pre-draft workouts & private team meetings, the pendulum will swing back towards items like "potential" & "upside".   The loud noise of the nitpicking of these top guys will subdue.

No, it is not.  The reason he is falling in sentiment and can fall further is that his team did not only play mediocre basketball all year long but they got destroyed late in the season.  That is not "nitpicking," those are facts. 

I love how the posters on this blog will come out and say that in the NBA, in order to contend, you need a star.  But in college, when a "star" has a team that is by all measures barely above average, and was terrible late in the season, it is all the coach's fault.

[Donoghus]

The only way the draft value falls based on not playing is if the only person that could conceivably catch you has a monster tournament.  In other words if Ingram goes off in multiple games he could pass Simmons, but that would be more about Ingram passing Simmons than Simmons falling.  And I'm not saying Ingram can pass Simmons, only that he is the only guy that could possibly do it.

Pretty much this.

Also keep in mind that we're still in "nitpicking & tear down" season.  Once these guys start having the pre-draft workouts & private team meetings, the pendulum will swing back towards items like "potential" & "upside".   The loud noise of the nitpicking of these top guys will subdue.

No, it is not.  The reason he is falling in sentiment and can fall further is that his team did not only play mediocre basketball all year long but they got destroyed late in the season.  That is not "nitpicking," those are facts. 

I love how the posters on this blog will come out and say that in the NBA, in order to contend, you need a star.  But in college, when a "star" has a team that is by all measures barely above average, and was terrible late in the season, it is all the coach's fault.

He's only falling in sentiment because the Knights of the Keyboard and the media are being loud & vocal in their criticisms of him.

The funny thing is that, despite all of this, there is absolute a zero percent chance that he falls past #2, if not, remain at #1.   

Teams' opinions of guys with this talent don't exactly sway in the wind like bloggers' & the media.

He was on a crap team that imploded at the end of the year.  It happens.  Doesn't spell the end of the world for a 19 year college freshman's chances at the next level.

[Celtics18]

Whoa!!!! I just noticed DraftExpress' updated mock from yesterday afternoon:

1.  Brandon Ingram
2.  Ben Simmons

It's happening.

[kozlodoev]

Fantastic. Our pick is gaining value.

[mef730]

Whoa!!!! I just noticed DraftExpress' updated mock from yesterday afternoon:

1.  Brandon Ingram
2.  Ben Simmons

It's happening.

TP, good catch.

Mike

[Snakehead]

Whoa!!!! I just noticed DraftExpress' updated mock from yesterday afternoon:

1.  Brandon Ingram
2.  Ben Simmons

It's happening.

And more fun for DE to write up than "Hey it's still Simmons like we said all along".  And you can do a podcast about it, get it going on twitter, etc.

[rondohondo]

Brandon Ingram is now ranked the No. 1 prospect in the 2016 NBA Draft class by Draft Express over Ben Simmons.

"Ingram is 14 months younger than Simmons, has a longer wingspan by four inches and a standing reach six and a half inches higher," writes Jonathan Givony. "Ingram is a better shooter – which is perhaps the most important skill in today’s NBA – and has shown a much better trajectory throughout the college season. The intel on Ingram as a teammate and competitor has been much stronger than Simmons’. Yes, Ingram has a much more frail frame now, but it’s easy to envision him filling out as he ages and matures."

Simmons has received criticism for his lack of competitiveness and also for producing hollow box scores.

"One NBA executive described him as a “taller Rajon Rondo, a more athletic Evan Turner, or a skinnier Royce White”," wrote Givony.

Jonathan Givony/The Vertical

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/241201/Ben-Simmons-Compared-To-Taller-Rondo-More-Athletic-Turner-Skinnier-Royce-White

[PhoSita]

The thing is, a 6'10'' Rondo or a very athletic version of Evan Turner could be really, really good.

[bdm860]

Brandon Ingram is now ranked the No. 1 prospect in the 2016 NBA Draft class by Draft Express over Ben Simmons.

"Ingram is 14 months younger than Simmons, has a longer wingspan by four inches and a standing reach six and a half inches higher," writes Jonathan Givony. "Ingram is a better shooter – which is perhaps the most important skill in today’s NBA – and has shown a much better trajectory throughout the college season. The intel on Ingram as a teammate and competitor has been much stronger than Simmons’. Yes, Ingram has a much more frail frame now, but it’s easy to envision him filling out as he ages and matures."

Simmons has received criticism for his lack of competitiveness and also for producing hollow box scores.

"One NBA executive described him as a “taller Rajon Rondo, a more athletic Evan Turner, or a skinnier Royce White”," wrote Givony.

Jonathan Givony/The Vertical

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/241201/Ben-Simmons-Compared-To-Taller-Rondo-More-Athletic-Turner-Skinnier-Royce-White

I've seen this description a few times now, and find it funny as it's supposed to portray Simmons flaws, so they describe him as a taller Rajon Rondo.


But if you had a 6'10" Rajon Rondo, that guy would be a first ballot HOFer and All-NBA every year.

That's Jason Kidd plus another 6 inches.  So basically Magic Johnson with a weak jumper?

I'm just saying, a taller Rajon Rondo would be an incredible talent.


Edit - I see Pho's thinking the same thing.

[PhoSita]

Edit - I see Pho's thinking the same thing.

Indeed.

Rondo always seemed like a power forward on offense.

That wouldn't have been such a problem if he played, you know, power forward.