Nerlens Noel Available

[kozlodoev]

It would be great to land Nerlens. Hopefully without giving up the BKN picks or Smart.

Here's a thought: would you guys trade IT4+2nd rounders for Noel+filler+2nd rounders?

Probably not. IT is almost literally the only guy on the team who can dribble. At the very least, he's the only guy who can create his own shot / one for others consistently. Swapping him out and Noel in would be pretty painful from an offensive perspective.

He's not all that great of a ball handler either, it's just harder to reach down and poke the ball when the dribbler is 5'9 But he's probably the best player on the team. You're not making the team better by swapping Thomas for Noel.

[wiley]

Wow.  Smart and Sully for Noel.  Wow!
It's as if intangibles don't exist.  It's as if Sully
were David Lee!

I'd take great talent and average intangibles over average talent and great intangibles any day.

Smart is a great talent.  He'll figure out how to be more efficient on offense.
Danny would move him in the right deal but this ain't it
By miles...

Yes, I got the point. Everyone here thinks Smart will "figure it out", and Noel will be the same player for the balance of his career. Or at least that's what it looks like.

I think Smart has already figured out.  Players can always improve.  I don't like your trade because of what Smart already is today, not because I think one day he'll be a great scorer.

[kozlodoev]

Smart is a clutch player who has stepped up in big games and can dominate a game defensively. Given the modern day NBA, where small ball runs rampant and non-offensive bigs (like Noel) are on the bench watching during crunch time, I hold a perimeter defender like Smart in higher demand.

Yes, I heart everything about Smart already. I guess his 35% from the field and sub-79% free-throw shooting is a great asset in crunch time. And Noel is simply chopped liver. Out of curiosity, will you swap Smart for Drummond straight up?

Quick, name the last big game Noel has played in? Senior year of HS, maybe?

Yup, it's certainly Noel's fault that he got drafted by a team that's more interested in collecting picks than building any semblance of a capable NBA roster. Or that he tore his ACL in the middle of his only year in college. 

[ssspence]

Wow.  Smart and Sully for Noel.  Wow!
It's as if intangibles don't exist.  It's as if Sully
were David Lee!

I'd take great talent and average intangibles over average talent and great intangibles any day.

Smart is a great talent.  He'll figure out how to be more efficient on offense.
Danny would move him in the right deal but this ain't it
By miles...

Yes, I got the point. Everyone here thinks Smart will "figure it out", and Noel will be the same player for the balance of his career. Or at least that's what it looks like.

Agreed. Noel's "too flawed", but Smart's "got it" or he's a "gamer" or "his intangibles are too valuable". It pains me to sound like I don't like Smart (I certainly do) or that I don't believe that to an extent these ARE valuable parts of his make-up. But at a point it's just homerism: it comes with familiarity and love due to identity, and it leads to bias.

... especially when you stack him up against Noel. Dude could be an absolute terror over the next 10 years on the right team. I firmly believe he's taking measures to improve that haven't shown on the court yet, in part because he's working in a stupidly lousy situation.

[otherdave]

Yes, I got the point. Everyone here thinks Smart will "figure it out", and Noel will be the same player for the balance of his career. Or at least that's what it looks like.

This is exactly my view.  Noel is not going to suddenly have good hands, or hit a free throw (if you haven't figured out the charity strip by age 21, you're probably not going to).  Smart has already shown the ability to improve in several areas.  I think Marcus's biggest challenge right now is staying healthy.  I remember when Avery was plagued with injuries at the beginning of his career.

[PhoSita]

How many people who gripe about Tyler Zeller's offensive game have given serious thought to what Nerlens Noel would look operating in the Celts offense?  What exactly would he do out there? 

Exciting talent defensively, but it's hard to see him thriving in a system that prizes versatility, skill, and range on offense.

[kozlodoev]

Agreed. Noel's "too flawed", but Smart's "got it" or he's a "gamer" or "his intangibles are too valuable". It pains me to sound like I don't like Smart (I certainly do) or that I don't believe that to an extent these ARE valuable parts of his make-up. But at a point it's just homerism: it comes with familiarity and love due to identity, and it leads to bias.

... especially when you stack him up against Noel. Dude could be an absolute terror over the next 10 years on the right team. I firmly believe he's taking measures to improve that haven't shown on the court yet, in part because he's working in a stupidly lousy situation.

As far as improvement is concerned, I am much more pessimistic about Smart's offensive game than I am about Noel's. In a fast-paced system, Noel can live on putbacks and fast breaks, and be a double-double guy every thing. You don't have to have him chuck jumpers from the foul line extended in order for him to be an efficient player.

Smart, on the other hand, has shown a complete lack of a first step, and I don't think explosiveness is something you can just "develop". Best case scenario is that his jump shot will actually progress for him not to be a complete dud on offense, but that's far from a given.

[PhoSita]

I know many like Noel a lot, but his offensive limitations are just too much for me to feel comfortable with the Celts giving up what they'd have to give up to convince the Sixers to trade him.

You mean, like, the most offensively challenged player on our roster?! If you're worried about Noel, you just must absolutely hate having Smart.

Smart can operate within the Celts offense.  Keeps the ball moving, can handle the ball, pass, and also run around screens.  Has shown an ability to hit spot up jumpers and even hit pull-up jumpers.

Marcus has a ways to go to become a consistent, productive offensive player.  But he makes a lot more sense in the Celts' offense than Noel.


I'm not saying I disagree with the notion that Noel is a better prospect / player.  I believe he is.

What I'm saying is ... do you really want to give up Smart and one of the Brooklyn picks, and probably more, to get Noel?  Because I don't.  I don't think he's that valuable.

[TheFlex]

How many people who gripe about Tyler Zeller's offensive game have given serious thought to what Nerlens Noel would look operating in the Celts offense?  What exactly would he do out there? 

Exciting talent defensively, but it's hard to see him thriving in a system that prizes versatility, skill, and range on offense.

Without a go-to scorer, the Cs offense depends on its defense to force turnovers and create easy baskets. Noel has the defensive ability to get a couple blocks and steals each a game, which would make the Celtics more of a turnover force than they already are. At the same time, we'd spend assets on him that we could spend getting a go-to scorer and decreasing our dependence on turnovers.

[PhoSita]

I know many like Noel a lot, but his offensive limitations are just too much for me to feel comfortable with the Celts giving up what they'd have to give up to convince the Sixers to trade him.

Maybe you overestimate what it would take to get him. After all, having him stand around and watch Okafor in the post isn't exactly doing wonders for his trade value....

I believe Philly hangs up if the Celts aren't willing to include, as a starting point, Marcus Smart and one of the Brooklyn picks.

[kozlodoev]

or hit a free throw (if you haven't figured out the charity strip by age 21, you're probably not going to).

Noel is a .600 FT shooter for his career so far. Smart is... a 65% FT shooter. But I'm sure he'll figure it out. 

Smart has already shown the ability to improve in several areas.

Funny you should say that, because at least offensively he has most certainly regressed since college.

[LilRip]

It would be great to land Nerlens. Hopefully without giving up the BKN picks or Smart.

Here's a thought: would you guys trade IT4+2nd rounders for Noel+filler+2nd rounders?

Probably not. IT is almost literally the only guy on the team who can dribble. At the very least, he's the only guy who can create his own shot / one for others consistently. Swapping him out and Noel in would be pretty painful from an offensive perspective.

He's not all that great of a ball handler either, it's just harder to reach down and poke the ball when the dribbler is 5'9 But he's probably the best player on the team. You're not making the team better by swapping Thomas for Noel.

I hear where both of you are coming from. It's an unorthodox idea where the promise lies later, rather than helping the team win now coz if anything, the proposed trade would actually make our current team worse. But on the upside, we get to keep all of our picks and we have a nice young core of Smart, Noel, and Sully/KO to work with.

[Eddie20]

Smart is a clutch player who has stepped up in big games and can dominate a game defensively. Given the modern day NBA, where small ball runs rampant and non-offensive bigs (like Noel) are on the bench watching during crunch time, I hold a perimeter defender like Smart in higher demand.

Yes, I heart everything about Smart already. I guess his 35% from the field and sub-79% free-throw shooting is a great asset in crunch time. And Noel is simply chopped liver. Out of curiosity, will you swap Smart for Drummond straight up?

Quick, name the last big game Noel has played in? Senior year of HS, maybe?

Yup, it's certainly Noel's fault that he got drafted by a team that's more interested in collecting picks than building any semblance of a capable NBA roster. Or that he tore his ACL in the middle of his only year in college. 

Are you really comparing Noel to Drummond? Not only does Drummond have great hands, but he operates with both strength (unlike Noel) and athleticism.

[PhoSita]

How many people who gripe about Tyler Zeller's offensive game have given serious thought to what Nerlens Noel would look operating in the Celts offense?  What exactly would he do out there? 

Exciting talent defensively, but it's hard to see him thriving in a system that prizes versatility, skill, and range on offense.

Without a go-to scorer, the Cs offense depends on its defense to force turnovers and create easy baskets. Noel has the defensive ability to get a couple blocks and steals each a game, which would make the Celtics more of a turnover force than they already are. At the same time, we'd spend assets on him that we could spend getting a go-to scorer and decreasing our dependence on turnovers.

I think his total lack of range, or any kind of post-up game or passing ability to make up for that lack of range, would outweigh the benefit of the turnovers he'd create.

Our team is very dependent on there being space for IT, Bradley, and Crowder to operate.  Those guys can look very good offensively if they have space to move.  They can look very bad if they have to navigate tight spaces.

[TheSundanceKid]

According to:  http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2601349-nba-rumors-latest-trade-buzz-on-nerlens-noel-ty-lawson-and-caron-butler

Smart, Dallas 1st, and Philly's 2nd back to them for Noel.  Money wise, it's a push and they appear to be in need of a PG.

Yea/Nay?

I'm a Yea.

That is "sourced" by BleacherReport by via Philly beat writer who points to a random Twitter user who says the Celtics "like" Noel. I'd go out on a limb here and call bull.

If there are any conversations, they probably start with Smart and one of the Nets picks. Which I doubt.

My goodness you are hilarious. Smart and a Brooklyn pick to start? For Noel? Noel may well be a defensive force, but he is no game changer. I don't see him dragging Philly's defensive rating to a respectable level, something you expect from a TRUE defensive game changer like Howard, KG or Davis. Smart on the other hand has shown that capability..

Furthermore you wish to add a Nets pick, which seems a lock for top 8. In that back range you have Jaylen Brown, Ellinson, Murray.. all good to great prospects. And you'd give that up TO START??

Well, it's a good job Danny sees things differently to you. That kind of trade would be the undoing of him